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  1. #41
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iskra22 View Post
    While of course all sim and WoL data has its flaws, those graphs show a really fucking awful trend. Those of you posting those graphs and essentially saying "It'll be fine, we're still in the middle of the pack" are missing one really key piece of information, and I'll quote it from the raidbots site.




    The data is an aggregate of two weeks. The nerf happened what, five days ago? So those "middle of the pack" numbers are really 9 days of pre-combustion/CM nerf, 5.1 OP combustion data, and only five days of post-nerf numbers. Meaning the dps shown in those graphs is very heavily weighted by completely outdated data from the wildly OP 5.1 combustion. The dps decline in those graphs is probably around half of the change in where fire actually stands with respect to other specs.

    Time will ultimately tell where the spec falls, and I'm hesitant to say the sky is falling, but the new numbers from WoL, simcraft, and the trend that we're seeing in performance all paint a really damn bleak picture for the spec.
    also take into consideration that a lot of the better fire players have been playing arcane during those 5 days which would also contribute to fire's decline on the graph in addition to the nerfs.

  2. #42
    Fair enough, but I'd imagine many of them did so after testing out the spec and finding the dps drop to be unacceptable given the alternative (respeccing).

    There's no perfect measure, but I very seriously doubt that those graphs represent the "bottom" of the drop of fire's dps, not with 9 days of not just pre-nerf data, but 9 days of data from when fire was ridiculously OP. I'd imagine as those 9 days start to drop out of the 14 day window the average dps will continue to drop.
    Last edited by Iskra22; 2012-12-06 at 12:30 PM.

  3. #43
    I don't think there's much wrong with being middle of the pack when having good mobility and a very nice cleave. There'll always be cleave fights where we can shine, and having a spec that brings almost everything is a bit too much if you ask me. The massive AoE numbers from cata were awesome, but in all reality only really used on halfus and yor'sahj no? Cleave = win, simple as that. We'll still need to see raidbots update however over the next couple of weeks to see how "middle of the pack" we really are.
    I don't know if it was just me but the 1.5 critical mass multiplier was too insane I figured it wouldn't even make 5.0 live. Not surprised it got nerfed at all, though I find it a bit weird they do it now instead of at the very start of MoP or when t15 launches.

  4. #44
    The problem is not just the dps loss, the Fire spec has become very dull at the moment. Since you wont crit so much (I lost 33% of my Pyroblasts compaired to 5.0.5), there are moments were you litteraly spam 10-12 fireballs in a row, without critting. That is ofcourse bad RNG, and also a possibilty prio to the 5.1 nerf, but it happens way to often.

    And it affectw every aspect of the Fire spec. Since crits are much more rare, building up a Pyroblast and Hotstreak buff, does not often end with double Pyroblasts, and so, much less then 50% of combustion prediction on average (considering the nerf). It makes you postpone your combustion cooldown, and we are back at the 4.3 RNG.

    My biggest problem with the nerf, is that the crit nerf hits lower ilvls much harder then higher ilvls, compaired to other classes, 25% base crit mages, still have the fun of decent amount of crits. But when you run 18-20%, its a whole different story.

    Therefore, I would like to see a crit cap. Back to 1.5 crit mass, but never above 50% crit with buffs. Nerf the pyro and fireball damage for x%, I dont care, just let us have the fun back of a crit based spec, instead of taken it all away.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nohara View Post
    The problem is not just the dps loss, the Fire spec has become very dull at the moment. Since you wont crit so much (I lost 33% of my Pyroblasts compaired to 5.0.5), there are moments were you litteraly spam 10-12 fireballs in a row, without critting. That is ofcourse bad RNG, and also a possibilty prio to the 5.1 nerf, but it happens way to often.

    And it affectw every aspect of the Fire spec. Since crits are much more rare, building up a Pyroblast and Hotstreak buff, does not often end with double Pyroblasts, and so, much less then 50% of combustion prediction on average (considering the nerf). It makes you postpone your combustion cooldown, and we are back at the 4.3 RNG.

    My biggest problem with the nerf, is that the crit nerf hits lower ilvls much harder then higher ilvls, compaired to other classes, 25% base crit mages, still have the fun of decent amount of crits. But when you run 18-20%, its a whole different story.

    Therefore, I would like to see a crit cap. Back to 1.5 crit mass, but never above 50% crit with buffs. Nerf the pyro and fireball damage for x%, I dont care, just let us have the fun back of a crit based spec, instead of taken it all away.
    A crit cap would also be terrible. You don't really want your fun, optimal stat to just stop being good at an arbitrary number. Its counter intuitive, and would also introduce a huge plateau in the dps scaling with ilvl.

    The proper way to do a scaling nerf would be to pick a point at which you wanted the hotfix to be dps neutral, say 33% crit. You can nerf critical mass to 1.25 then, but you'd then add a flat (non-scaling) amount of crit to the spec (or just fireball/pyro) so that at 33% crit the hotfix wouldn't change your crit rate. Under 33% it'd be a slight buff, above 33% it'd be a nerf, at 33% you'd see no difference. And of course at all levels each point of crit would be worth less dps, thereby nerfing scaling.

    Hacking off 1/6 of our crit rate would imply that crit was OP at ALL levels of gear, and anyone who isnt fully decked out in 489+ knows that's just completely untrue. The current nerf basically reset my crit rate to what it was shortly after hitting 90, and it reduces the spec to an awful lot of fireball spamming and makes it completely not fun

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Nohara View Post
    The problem is not just the dps loss, the Fire spec has become very dull at the moment. Since you wont crit so much (I lost 33% of my Pyroblasts compaired to 5.0.5), there are moments were you litteraly spam 10-12 fireballs in a row, without critting. That is ofcourse bad RNG, and also a possibilty prio to the 5.1 nerf, but it happens way to often.

    And it affectw every aspect of the Fire spec. Since crits are much more rare, building up a Pyroblast and Hotstreak buff, does not often end with double Pyroblasts, and so, much less then 50% of combustion prediction on average (considering the nerf). It makes you postpone your combustion cooldown, and we are back at the 4.3 RNG.

    My biggest problem with the nerf, is that the crit nerf hits lower ilvls much harder then higher ilvls, compaired to other classes, 25% base crit mages, still have the fun of decent amount of crits. But when you run 18-20%, its a whole different story.

    Therefore, I would like to see a crit cap. Back to 1.5 crit mass, but never above 50% crit with buffs. Nerf the pyro and fireball damage for x%, I dont care, just let us have the fun back of a crit based spec, instead of taken it all away.
    Yeah - what you said.

    Sitting on a pyro waiting for a heating up, then having to use the pyro without as one because it never turned up happens more often than not now and makes it less enjoyable to play.

    As with many others I am tempted to switch to arcane, but the gear I have seems mostly crit based and the majority of my current raids are still quite heavy with movement and Arcane with movement isnt much fun. We are still doing Vaults every week and the first half of HoF, so are probably behind most
    here but is seems to me that so many of these fights require movement which is why I went with fire in the first place (well one reason).

    I may well sort out an arcane offspec for Elegon mind you, using some of my fire hand me downs as I am still struggling a bit on charges on Elegon and I hear Arcane is better.

    As Nohara said though, just putting the ctit back to 1.5 would probably do it for me.

    ps. we did have one heck of a good week though eh? that was fun.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    in pre 5.1, fire was only a bit ahead of affliction and I think the highest scaling spec was assasination of all, it just started so low that it never catched up with affli and fire. And if they would have reverted fire to pre-5.1 it would have been behind arcane aswell in scaling. The thing people forget though is that the T6 mage talents are designed to not be maxed, so its pretty natural for mages to scale a bit better than the rest just cause of that. Given prolly nobody can dispute the fact that fire would have started to pick up if it got past 8k crit rating, but that was more to do with the boss crit reduction being flat 3%(4.5% for fire) and never scaled, so it just added to the speed fire scaled cause we could get our buffed crits to past 32% allready.
    On most raid encounters it was far far above affliction. It was only on single target that they were close.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 01:55 PM ----------

    And fire isn't bad. It's just kind of only useful on cleave fights, probably on a massive cleave fight it's miles ahead of the other two specs.

    It's more fun like this, swapping specs a bit between fights.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
    On most raid encounters it was far far above affliction. It was only on single target that they were close.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 01:55 PM ----------

    And fire isn't bad. It's just kind of only useful on cleave fights, probably on a massive cleave fight it's miles ahead of the other two specs.

    It's more fun like this, swapping specs a bit between fights.
    Swapping talents between fights is fun, swapping specs is a nightmare if you want to perform well.

    Talents give you different options to use during a fight. Specs require regemming, reforging, and swapping pieces of gear.

  9. #49
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    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa.../30/avg/#7vvvv

    After reading this thread, I'm still not sure what do. My gear is 485, which I'm told that anything below 490 was hit harder by the nerf. When I look at the above graph (10man normal) you can see the Fire DPS starting to reach Arcane levels. Since this is a moving average, I expect this trend to continue until Arcane (on average) is the better spec overall. It seems that I should start re-familiarizing myself with Arcane. Is this sound logic, or am I missing something?

    Thanks.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by dakalro View Post
    On most raid encounters it was far far above affliction. It was only on single target that they were close.[COLOR="red"]
    That post was kinda only abt scaling so.. ye . Ofc fire was miles ahead cause we still can spread dots, not as effectively as in cata, but still it was the main reason why fire was so low single target dps in 4.0.6-4.2 and only really worked on fights you could spread combustion or had a silly mechanic like the crit buff on alysrazor. And atm why are kinda in the same place after this nerf, but rather than aoe fights, its down to cleave fights, And ye there aint that many atm in MoP raiding

  11. #51
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    10 man normal, where there is the possibility of buffs missing, is hardly a place to balance classes.

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa.../30/avg/#7vvvv

    as you can see rogues have been stomping mages.


    I was frost for a bit last night... I gave it some attempts, and it just felt like whack-a-mole.
    Went back to fire, and was in the middle of the pack. Initial burst, barley able to break 180k dps, compared to arcane and other classes peaking 250k+

    The crit nerf hurts.. went from a good 45%~ crit rate, down to 35% if I'm lucky.

    Combustion I can live with it (seeing as I can still get 30/40k+ ticks)
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  12. #52
    Because fire dps is so low, it's not viable for raiding. This means no more playing for me since I won't go arcane or frost.

  13. #53
    From the initial testing I did before this raid week started, fire wasn't near where I wanted it to be, so I've been frost. From what I can tell, I'm parsing pretty well, with a bunch of top 5s and a 1. That being said, a top 3 frost parse is often 3rd in my raid. I don't think there is too much real competition playing frost, because I know I'm making mistakes and still ranking well.

    Fire has lost a lot of the appeal that it had too. With often sitting on a pyro trying to get a HU and never getting it. Still not geared enough for arcane to go arcane successfully. This is a pretty shit situation to be in. I can't justify on taking any of the haste/mastery gear from our warlock, even though he's been offering it because eventually they have to fix fire. Having to be frost or neutered fire is just the stupidest thing I've ever been involved in and has managed to suck the fun out of raiding for me.
    Last edited by Shmeh; 2012-12-06 at 06:51 PM.

  14. #54
    To OP:
    You are saying fire is fine because it sits next to warlocks worst dps spec? You have affliction. It is really one of the game´s best specs on single target. Our best spec just got nerfed to the level of the specs that you arent even supposed to be using if you are raiding. If you are destro and your guild sports several underperforming specs like it, i doubt you are going to get past garalon on normal mode. You could say that frost and arcane are like affliction, but sorry, that is just simcraft, in real world they perform much worse. We are a pure dps class without a recount-topping dps spec.

  15. #55
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    I think what has happened is more people are stretching their legs and trying other specs. I like that other specs are more viable, but...I think both the amount of nerfing to fire and the timing is a bit off.
    I'm working on both arcane and frost in raids, and seeing what is the more viable for where we are at in progression. Seems either would work fine.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I just find it amazing how Flavor of the Month all of these players actually are, Fire damage is simming literally the same as destruction (which is fine, its just not OP)
    Patchwerk fights don't exist.

  17. #57
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Fire is where blizzard didn't want it... rng based.

    Its not terrible.. but it can be.

    Everyone basing shit off simcraft and "the perfect" fight.... which nobody can do.

    If simcraft was so right, why are the 2 bm hunters in my raid doing over 100k some fights, while simcraft lists them at 70k?
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  18. #58
    Saying "simcraft" is right or wrong is utterly meaningless. Simcraft is a collection of modules for each spec, which are made by entirely different people, and vary wildly in terms of accuracy and completeness. Simcraft can be spot on for one class, and utter garbage for another. Look at the release notes for simcraft around 4.3, its pretty funny. There would be something like "Improve genetic algorithm for improved performance determining optimal cooldown stacking for arcane", next to like implemented correct formula for scaling for shattering throw or something. Some modules were getting ridiculous fine tuning and perfomance optimization while others were just getting basic fundamental formulas added.

  19. #59
    Whoever this lock is a complete retard. While most of wow raids casual with very slow progression and flail around on easy fights because 3-4 button rotations are hard, some like to use their time wisely. As in real life some people like to do the best they can with the best spec they can while others like to struggle with the worst lock spec while bragging about beating fellow guildies in a non progression raiding guild. Well i beat these other two mages so these sims must be wrong LOL. I beat our other mages by millions but not because of spec but because they are horrible and suck. They are trials and will be booted but to say you beat two other mages in a fight then try to say a sim is wrong, clueless.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Babylonia View Post
    Really? So am I to believe that the majority of Warlocks have been farming destruction gear to they can focus on raiding with the lowest dps output spec? People don't get it. Did fire need a nerf? Of course, but to make it completely unviable is a slap in the face to the players that have now wasted 8 weeks of raiding to obtain crit gear.
    It's not "unviable". The nature of many of this tiers fights (with a lot of room to spread your dots) will continue to favour fire, as any mage who raids high-end would realize. This has also been the conclusion of our fire mage, who, previously, was impossible to compete with due to the nature of the fire spec on the majority of fights, and has now simply been brought back in line. Simcraft doesn't tell you that. Purely singletarget, well-played differently specced mages will undoubtfully outdo fire mages, but that does not mean fire mages are 'unviable'.

    No offense, but generally people who say stuff like that really have no idea. Use simcraft to optimize your own results on each fight, not to "see where in the list my class/spec sits and therefore I'm shit". Nerfs don't happen just to piss you off, there's often a genuine reason and though the fire mage nerfs were sweeping, they were necessary and you know it.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2012-12-07 at 04:10 AM.

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