1. #1

    Evaluate Ele Shammy Plz

    Ok, I am the raid leader and I know this guy is undergeared compared to the rest of us but would like some useful feedback on what he can improve as I am sure his numbers could be higher. Keep in mind:

    1) this is an alt
    2) he is main spec heals for us
    3) its only his 2nd week with us.

    so be gentle and constructive please. Logs below from last night:

    Feng:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...?s=1576&e=1909


    Elegon: (he was on protectors - first time ever seeing the fight outside lfr)

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...?s=4956&e=5454

    Armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...steve/advanced
    Last edited by Slak; 2012-12-03 at 09:54 PM.

  2. #2
    His Dps on Feng itself is fine, altough 3 Lvb Noncrits are obvious fails.

    Elemental sucks on Elegon, inability to multidots, no real situation where Cl is really useful.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    His Dps on Feng itself is fine, altough 3 Lvb Noncrits are obvious fails.

    Elemental sucks on Elegon, inability to multidots, no real situation where Cl is really useful.
    Depends on your strat there. If your raid leaves the adds up to deal with later then you can CL them a bit for a boost. Otherwise yeh, Elegon is kind of a meh fight for elemental. I find myself just spamming LB's on him during the add phases because without a pre-stacked Fulm + LvB ready, i normally can't get my add down quick enough after wave 3 or 4.

    Leaving my tangent, what you've said is otherwise it in a jist. On the feng log he had non crit LvB's and a semi-low FS uptime. Also he should have saved his second Ascendence to line up with Heroism since with your dps, he was only ever going to fit 2 into the fight. I also can't see Stormlash anywhere in the buffs gained second, which leads me to believe either I'm blind or he didn't drop it at all (and he could have easily gotten at least 2 out).

  4. #4
    Mechagnome Pum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    Depends on your strat there. If your raid leaves the adds up to deal with later then you can CL them a bit for a boost. Otherwise yeh, Elegon is kind of a meh fight for elemental. I find myself just spamming LB's on him during the add phases because without a pre-stacked Fulm + LvB ready, i normally can't get my add down quick enough after wave 3 or 4.
    All of this is absolutely untrue. I pull ~110k-120k DPS on Elegon as Elemental, we're not hindered at all.

    Even if your Shaman is on the adds, his DPS shouldn't change that much even if he isn't DPSing Elegon with stacks of Draw Power. Make sure he has 100% Flame Shock uptime on the boss and tell him to refresh it just before it expires, or like its already been noted, Lava Burst won't be critting which is what your Shaman is doing. Before the Celestial Protector spawns he should refresh FS, then get FS on the add as quickly as possible, so he has 2 FSs rolling for a better chance of a Lava Surge proc. The same goes for when you're killing the orbs, always have 2 FSs rolling and you shouldn't have a problem with 4 or even 5 orbs (I always save Fulmination for last orb also, depending if we're doing 4 or 5 waves of orbs). When you're on the pillars again have 2 FSs rolling, or even 3 if you really wanted to.

    Tell your Shaman it might be worth getting Elemental Mastery for this fight if he hasn't already got it. He should use Fire Elemental just before the pull, then Elemental Mastery so FS gets the haste buff, then Lava Burst, followed by Stormlash Totem then Ascendance. By the time the first pillar phase is over Ascendance should be off cooldown so he should use it again there along with Spiritwalkers Grace so it isn't wasted as you get your raid group back into position.

    As it has been said already, CL is near enough useless on Elegon.

    I've also found that currently Elemental Mastery is better than Echo of the Elements, alongside the fact that with EM you won't have to line your CDs with Heroism/BL because you have your own haste buff to use every 2 minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by tweekzlol View Post
    but then again, The Coon is obviously unbeatable as he will just manipulate you into being his friend

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    All of this is absolutely untrue. I pull ~110k-120k DPS on Elegon as Elemental, we're not hindered at all.

    Even if your Shaman is on the adds, his DPS shouldn't change that much even if he isn't DPSing Elegon with stacks of Draw Power. Make sure he has 100% Flame Shock uptime on the boss and tell him to refresh it just before it expires, or like its already been noted, Lava Burst won't be critting which is what your Shaman is doing. Before the Celestial Protector spawns he should refresh FS, then get FS on the add as quickly as possible, so he has 2 FSs rolling for a better chance of a Lava Surge proc. The same goes for when you're killing the orbs, always have 2 FSs rolling and you shouldn't have a problem with 4 or even 5 orbs (I always save Fulmination for last orb also, depending if we're doing 4 or 5 waves of orbs). When you're on the pillars again have 2 FSs rolling, or even 3 if you really wanted to.

    Tell your Shaman it might be worth getting Elemental Mastery for this fight if he hasn't already got it. He should use Fire Elemental just before the pull, then Elemental Mastery so FS gets the haste buff, then Lava Burst, followed by Stormlash Totem then Ascendance. By the time the first pillar phase is over Ascendance should be off cooldown so he should use it again there along with Spiritwalkers Grace so it isn't wasted as you get your raid group back into position.

    As it has been said already, CL is near enough useless on Elegon.

    I've also found that currently Elemental Mastery is better than Echo of the Elements, alongside the fact that with EM you won't have to line your CDs with Heroism/BL because you have your own haste buff to use every 2 minutes.
    The adds I was referring to were the orbs and even though this thread isn't about my particular play, when waiting on the orbs I prefer to keep Fulm and LvB in reserve as missing those orbs can really mess your raid up and I know many Elementals who agree with me on that point. By all means, if you can manage it fine then be my guest, but for the average Elemental, this is a mediocre fight, even more so for shaman like in the OP who don't even play Elemental as MS. So was my statement untrue for a shaman in your situation? Yes. Was in completely untrue? Not at all.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    I want to know his gear before I make judgement.

    But his gear has to be really low, as even in near full blue, you should be hitting near 100k on Elegon, and 120k+ in full epics (even the LFR stuff).

    One thing weird that I have to check when I next do a boss: I was sure, LvB damage should be higher than LB damage now, at least as far as I know, whereas his LB contibued more than his LvB? Is he using LvB on Surge proc? Looks like his LvB damage could have been a lot higher.

    Is he using his Ascendance enough? With CD? Someone said you can only fit 2 Ascendance in this fight. Nope, 3. Use 1 at beginning, use 1 on second phrase 2, and you should be able to squeeze 1 more when you stack up (especially if you kill 6 orbs it should definitely be up). The fight was over 8min, easily squeeze 3 Ascendance in.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    I want to know his gear before I make judgement.

    But his gear has to be really low, as even in near full blue, you should be hitting near 100k on Elegon, and 120k+ in full epics (even the LFR stuff).

    One thing weird that I have to check when I next do a boss: I was sure, LvB damage should be higher than LB damage now, at least as far as I know, whereas his LB contibued more than his LvB? Is he using LvB on Surge proc? Looks like his LvB damage could have been a lot higher.

    Is he using his Ascendance enough? With CD? Someone said you can only fit 2 Ascendance in this fight. Nope, 3. Use 1 at beginning, use 1 on second phrase 2, and you should be able to squeeze 1 more when you stack up (especially if you kill 6 orbs it should definitely be up). The fight was over 8min, easily squeeze 3 Ascendance in.
    The fight I was referring to was his Feng logs, in which they killed the boss in less than 6 minutes. Even using Ascendance in the beginning, he would still only get 2 out of it. You should judge him based on the Feng logs since thats as close to a patchwerk fight as you can get.

  8. #8
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    Here is my personal opinion as an Elemental Shaman:

    1 - He's under cap - he should be with 15% hit

    a) he missed 5 flameshocks in elegon fight, what did he hit 22 LvB with no Crit
    b) Same in the Feng fight - 2 Flameshocks; 2 EB; 1 LB and 2 LvB missed - and 5 LvB with no Crit

    2 - He should buy "Relic of Yu'lon" and replace the "Thousand-Year Pickled Egg" - I know it's off spec, but weapons and trinkets can really affect dps

    3 - He should use twice per fight "Stormlash totem"

    obs: Searing totem or FET should always be up, I can’t say with his log if he's doing it but he should

    Sorry for my bad English...

  9. #9
    Mechagnome Pum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    The adds I was referring to were the orbs and even though this thread isn't about my particular play, when waiting on the orbs I prefer to keep Fulm and LvB in reserve as missing those orbs can really mess your raid up and I know many Elementals who agree with me on that point. By all means, if you can manage it fine then be my guest, but for the average Elemental, this is a mediocre fight, even more so for shaman like in the OP who don't even play Elemental as MS. So was my statement untrue for a shaman in your situation? Yes. Was in completely untrue? Not at all.
    Shouldn't have quoted all of that, the untrue part was meant for Elementals unable to perform properly on Elegon, apologies.

    That's fine if he's an average player, but I'm just pointing out how he can dramatically improve his DPS on not only this fight but any other encounter, although he does seem to be doing okay in Feng. However it shouldn't matter if it is his offspec, that isn't a reason to play your class at a subpar standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by tweekzlol View Post
    but then again, The Coon is obviously unbeatable as he will just manipulate you into being his friend

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Grym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    The fight I was referring to was his Feng logs, in which they killed the boss in less than 6 minutes. Even using Ascendance in the beginning, he would still only get 2 out of it. You should judge him based on the Feng logs since thats as close to a patchwerk fight as you can get.
    Then the problem is with the player, not the rotation and gear. If he can do well in a patchwreck style fight, but not in a fight where there is mechanics, then he is not playing properly. Not with his roation since he can do it just fone on a patchwreck style fight, and not gear for the same reason, so that would boil down to he can't handle the mechanics?

    And OP, can we have his armoury please?

  11. #11
    Mechagnome Pum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    I want to know his gear before I make judgement.

    One thing weird that I have to check when I next do a boss: I was sure, LvB damage should be higher than LB damage now, at least as far as I know, whereas his LB contibued more than his LvB?
    Yeah this shouldn't be the case.

    For example, say on a fight my Lava Burst has done 7million damage, my Lightning Bolt would be around 4million damage. The difference is pretty significant so this Shaman must either not be using LvB surge procs or isn't using LvB on CD. Or heavens forbid, only using LvB with a surge proc.
    Quote Originally Posted by tweekzlol View Post
    but then again, The Coon is obviously unbeatable as he will just manipulate you into being his friend

  12. #12
    search the US armory for Skoobasteve, I found him right off the bat

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    Shouldn't have quoted all of that, the untrue part was meant for Elementals unable to perform properly on Elegon, apologies.

    That's fine if he's an average player, but I'm just pointing out how he can dramatically improve his DPS on not only this fight but any other encounter, although he does seem to be doing okay in Feng. However it shouldn't matter if it is his offspec, that isn't a reason to play your class at a subpar standard.
    I couldn't agree more actually, but the fact that it's this person's OS and his performance is lacking enough for his guildies to seek help suggests to me he's quite a novice to the spec, which is why I was against trying to give him advanced info for his spec. If he's a novice, trying to tell him how to play like a pro just won't work. Baby steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grym View Post
    Then the problem is with the player, not the rotation and gear. If he can do well in a patchwreck style fight, but not in a fight where there is mechanics, then he is not playing properly. Not with his roation since he can do it just fone on a patchwreck style fight, and not gear for the same reason, so that would boil down to he can't handle the mechanics?

    And OP, can we have his armoury please?
    The problem though is this isn't a "diagnose our Elegon fight" thread. It's a general help thread so if the player has any basic gameplay issues, they are going to be harder to spot in a fight like Elegon, which is why I suggested looking at his Feng log. If he has no basic gameplay issues, then perhaps his other logs should be looked into further. Again as my above point, trying to fix too many things instead of focusing on the basic things first can cause more issues than it fixes.
    Last edited by rewn; 2012-12-03 at 08:00 PM.

  14. #14
    Thanks to all for taking time to post.

    I have added the armory to OP.

    I have zero knowledge of shammies, thus don't feel qualified to offer advice, thus the outreach. His main is a warlock, he is an experienced player and will accept any tips, beginner or pro.

    We have a decent raid team that could be better if we stayed out of s**t and maximized our rotations and gear a bit more, thus am tweaking some of our guys or looking to help them improve. It just happens to be his turn today

  15. #15
    elemental is fantastic for elegon heroic.im doing 180k dps, and ancestral guidance in p3 can and HAS carried my guild to multiple kills.

    raids dropping low, stacks rising pot/berserking/ascendance/gloves cooldown etc etc.....AG spam lava burst....raid simply cannot die for 10 seconds, 270k heals per lava burst...with usually 1.1 sec cast at most...overloads...its roughly 800k hps for 10 secs, and we run with 2 ele shamans, thats 20 seconds of raid invincibility.

    elemental is not the best dps in the world for elegon but to say its bad....ugh sorry thats lack of class/spec knowledge.

  16. #16
    well I do have a tad bit more haste than him, but looking at the elegon fight he only casted 40lavabursts in 490sec fight. I casted 87 lavabursts in a 400sec, so my fight was shorter buy 90 seconds and i still more than doubled his lava burts. So as some people said above, his lava bursts are low. Also I was able to cast Ascendance 3 times while he only did it twice even though he had a longer fight. He should be able to cast ascendance in beggining, in 2nd part, and then again at the end when bloodlust goes up.

    Also everything visah said.

    tl;dr Isnt casting enough lava bursts.
    Last edited by zyrxy; 2012-12-04 at 04:54 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    All of this is absolutely untrue. I pull ~110k-120k DPS on Elegon as Elemental, we're not hindered at all.



    Tell your Shaman it might be worth getting Elemental Mastery for this fight if he hasn't already got it. He should use Fire Elemental just before the pull, then Elemental Mastery so FS gets the haste buff, then Lava Burst, followed by Stormlash Totem then Ascendance. By the time the first pillar phase is over Ascendance should be off cooldown so he should use it again there along with Spiritwalkers Grace so it isn't wasted as you get your raid group back into position.

    As it has been said already, CL is near enough useless on Elegon.

    I've also found that currently Elemental Mastery is better than Echo of the Elements, alongside the fact that with EM you won't have to line your CDs with Heroism/BL because you have your own haste buff to use every 2 minutes.
    The other thing is make sure to prepot when he pops his fire elemental.

    Furthermore using ascendance during bloodlust isn't always a dps gain if you are using other haste cds since its very easy to get lava burst down to a 1 sec cast and after that more haste is useless. I would suggest telling him to roll a troll but you guys being alliance makes that a little hard (and seriously gimps your hps/dps). Using Elemental Mastery will help him make the most out of ascendance and increase his burst dps significantly. Furthermore have him buy a DMF card and run heroics until he picks up the flashfrozen resin globue (static hit + on use int). Macro the trinket into ascendance and reforge all spirit/hit thats extra. He should eventually replace the trinket with the one from Sha. Another benefit would be for him to wait until he see his jade spirit weapon proc to blow his cds.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Visah View Post
    Here is my personal opinion as an Elemental Shaman:

    1 - He's under cap - he should be with 15% hit

    a) he missed 5 flameshocks in elegon fight, what did he hit 22 LvB with no Crit
    b) Same in the Feng fight - 2 Flameshocks; 2 EB; 1 LB and 2 LvB missed - and 5 LvB with no Crit

    2 - He should buy "Relic of Yu'lon" and replace the "Thousand-Year Pickled Egg" - I know it's off spec, but weapons and trinkets can really affect dps

    3 - He should use twice per fight "Stormlash totem"

    obs: Searing totem or FET should always be up, I can’t say with his log if he's doing it but he should

    Sorry for my bad English...
    If this is all true just tell him to read the stickied guide for ele as he seems to be lacking fundamental knowledge of the spec. If he's got all that down and is still under performing then he'll need to be looked at further.

    He's not that far under hit cap (with Draenei racial) but as main spec Resto he should have no problem getting to the hit cap with all the spirit he should have on his resto gear

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 11:12 AM ----------

    People suggesting DMF trinket, yes it is amazing, yes it is BiS but it's a) his off spec and b) he's been with the guild 2 weeks. Unless he's swimming in money I highly doubt he's willing to drop 20k (ish) on a trinket for his off spec for a guild he's been in for 2 weeks.

  19. #19
    High Overlord FraQture's Avatar
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    1. Get Hit cap.
    2. Flame Shock should have a 100% uptime.
    3. Lava Burst should allways bee on cooldown, since it has first prio in the rotation. (Except Flame Shock ofc....)
    4. Time cooldowns as good as possible.
    5. Remember, oure flame totem is the Elemental Shaman's best friend, 100% uptime is a must.

    If you do this you should have no problem pushing over 100k dps. If you are having trouble reforging for hit cap i reccomend something like www.wowreforge.com

    Gl!

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