[Frost] Just hit 90, help managing all the CDs of Frost

[PriestLuna]

As the title says, I'm having issues managing all the c/ds of Frost effectively.

Altered Time
Icy Veins
Presence of Mind
Mirror Image
Frost Orb
Time Warp
(Trinkets)

It's feeling kinda overwhelming. I just hit 90 so I played with these abilities as best I could while leveling, but now it's time to clean it up. I'm stuck around 35k-ish dps and it's not really improving, and I'm sure it's because I could be handling these c/ds better. I'm going to configure my UI today and would like some tips on what helps you in this regard.

- Right now I have PoM bound to Frostbolt. It seems like a logical fit.
- Frost Orb...I'm not terrible with this. It's just another thing to watch so I included it in the list.

- Icy Veins / Altered Time / Mirror Images / Time Warp -
These are the killer for me. I just can't seem to find the flow in stacking these guys. Usually I open a fight with Frost Orb -> Frost Bomb, then I'll use Fingers of Frost procs until a Brain Freeze occurs. When that happens I'll Freeze for FoF then use Altered Time. It's decent, but it doesn't include Icy Veins, Mirror Images, or Time Warp. Time Warp I'm not too concerned with right now, I'm not raiding yet and it'll be up to the fight more than myself when to use. But Icy Veins and Mirror Image, I'm at a lost when to use these best.

So any tips on how best to tackle all these c/ds, or any tips on your UI for Frost would be greatly appreciated. I'm not horrible at WoW by the way, it's just that I'm trying something new this xpac by playing caster dps.

[Gamdwelf]

Icy veins on CD mostly.
Altered time when you have BF and 2 charges of FoF
I don't use pom for frost, most everything else on CD.

[PriestLuna]

Icy veins on CD mostly.
Altered time when you have BF and 2 charges of FoF
I don't use pom for frost, most everything else on CD.

Could you walk me through your opening on most fights?

[Gamdwelf]

Could you walk me through your opening on most fights?

Rune of Power at my feet
Engineer Gloves, Icy Veins, Mirror Images all at the same time with MI last because it triggers a GCD
Frost Orb
Frost Bomb
Pet Freeze to get second charge of FoF
Frost bolt until Frost Bomb goes off
Alter Time
Ice lance
FFB
Ice lance
(ice lance if you got more procs)
1 Frostbolt, Frost bomb, FB until altertime brings your procs back.
Ice lance
FFB
Ice lance
(ice lance if you got more procs)
FFB from your second frost bomb.

[Deleted]

Rune of Power at my feet
Engineer Gloves, Icy Veins, Mirror Images all at the same time with MI last because it triggers a GCD
Frost Orb
Frost Bomb
Pet Freeze to get second charge of FoF
Frost bolt until Frost Bomb goes off
Alter Time
Ice lance
FFB
Ice lance
(ice lance if you got more procs)
FrostBolt til alter time goes off
Ice lance
FFB
Ice lance
(ice lance if you got more procs)

It's kinda of un-proper to open like this. You shouldn't use your pet's Freeze until you have 3 stacks of Frostbolt on the target or Bomb on target explodes (if Frost Bomb), because you could lose a charge of Finger of Frost otherwise (casting 3 Frostbolts has a chance to proc them so you don't want to be FoF capped while building your debuff [x3]). Also don't use Engi Gloves right away. Wait until the moment before casting Alter Time to maximize uptime during alter time.
This is what I would change.

[Gamdwelf]

It's kinda of un-proper to open like this. You shouldn't use your pet's Freeze until you have 3 stacks of Frostbolt on the target or Bomb on target explodes (if Frost Bomb), because you could lose a charge of Finger of Frost otherwise (casting 3 Frostbolts has a chance to proc them so you don't want to be FoF capped while building your debuff [x3]). Also don't use Engi Gloves right away. Wait until the moment before casting Alter Time to maximize uptime during alter time.
This is what I would change.

Frost bomb explode can't give FFB charges, I change when i use Pet freeze but I usually use it a little before bomb explodes. Eng gloves aren't expired by the tiem alter time goes off so I usually get a full 6 more seconds on it

[PriestLuna]

Gamdwelf, thanks. Also, I can't believe I missed almost the most important thing that's throwing me off - Evocation. I have it talented at 90, and I want to make it work. It's just...really hard to balance. Also along the lines of Evocation, do you guys have mana problems? I never dropped below 90% mana until I hit level 90. Now at 90 I go OOM after about 90 seconds or so during a boss fight.

[Beeeesly]

On top of all of that I tend to try to throw a Frost Bomb between the 6 secs during Alter Time so that when alter time goes off I use FFB proc instantly (assuming you use AT with both FoF procs and FFB proc up) and then another pops right back up. Not sure if that's the best thing to do but it seems reasonable. However, I can't use Frost Bomb currently because of my LotC trinket, which is kind of a bummer. I really like the predicability that Frost Bomb gives.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 12:22 PM ----------

If you are using invocation as your level 90 talent, then you have to make sure to have that buff up at all times. If you do that you won't have trouble with mana.

[Gamdwelf]

Gamdwelf, thanks. Also, I can't believe I missed almost the most important thing that's throwing me off - Evocation. I have it talented at 90, and I want to make it work. It's just...really hard to balance. Also along the lines of Evocation, do you guys have mana problems? I never dropped below 90% mana until I hit level 90. Now at 90 I go OOM after about 90 seconds or so during a boss fight.

that should not be happening, it should not even be possible to go oom as frost.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 05:25 PM ----------

On top of all of that I tend to try to throw a Frost Bomb between the 6 secs during Alter Time so that when alter time goes off I use FFB proc instantly (assuming you use AT with both FoF procs and FFB proc up) and then another pops right back up. Not sure if that's the best thing to do but it seems reasonable. However, I can't use Frost Bomb currently because of my LotC trinket, which is kind of a bummer. I really like the predicability that Frost Bomb gives.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 12:22 PM ----------

If you are using invocation as your level 90 talent, then you have to make sure to have that buff up at all times. If you do that you won't have trouble with mana.

oh yeah I do, do that, I changed my opening.

[Beeeesly]

If Invocation is the lvl 90 talent chosen it is actually very possible to go OOM if you do not evocate to keep the buff up since it reduces your mana regen. However, you are right in the sense that you should never be able to go OOM and have no way of getting mana back. So yeah, I guess it is impossible in that sense. (typing and thinking at the same time, haha)

[stankopalluza]

I would suggest using Ring of Power because it's face roll until you learn the frost rotation. Then work Invocation into your build as it's more damage (I would also grab an addon like Classtimers to help track invocation instead of forcing yourself to watch the buff frames as it can be hard to keep track of with all your other buffs). The primary bit is to use everything on CD. Icy veins always with alter time, they're both 3 mins so this isn't a problem. POM on CD. Half the time with POM you should be able to stack it with icy veins and alter time because it's a 1.5 min CD.

You really only need to get 2 frost bolts up before you blow alter time with all your trinkets and CD's because you can cast an instant FB with POM to get the 3 stacks, assuming you have enough procs. I personally like to open with orb and will throw a pet nova out to get my 2x FOF procs if I had bad RNG getting procs to use alter time on. I wouldn't worry too much about overlapping CD's on the open until you can manage everything - the big thing is getting everything up and using alter time correctly, that front load is a big part of your damage.

The only other thing I will mention is NOT to use icy veins on the open if you're blowing hero at the start. You should wait until hero falls off to use icy veins. You should still use alter time up front with hero though, as you should have trinkets/pots/procs etc up. Just wait until icy veins and alter time are both off CD later in the fight so you can blow them at the same time because their timers will be off by 30s+.

[Deleted]

Frost bomb explode can't give FFB charges, I change when i use Pet freeze but I usually use it a little before bomb explodes. Eng gloves aren't expired by the tiem alter time goes off so I usually get a full 6 more seconds on it

Frost Bomb explosion has 100% chance to proc FFB (Brain Freeze) and it's the only thing doing that.

[Gamdwelf]

Frost Bomb explosion has 100% chance to proc FFB (Brain Freeze) and it's the only thing doing that.

I meant FoF.

[PriestLuna]

So not many use Evocation here then? It seems like we should use it if talented whenever possible. 5 seconds of channel for 25% buff over 40 seconds seems like a damage increase no? I might grab the Ward though just for simplicity's sake. At least until I get better gear and OOM isn't as much an issue.

[Beeeesly]

So not many use Evocation here then? It seems like we should use it if talented whenever possible. 5 seconds of channel for 25% buff over 40 seconds seems like a damage increase no? I might grab the Ward though just for simplicity's sake. At least until I get better gear and OOM isn't as much an issue.

I use Invocation and I honestly always have. I prefer it over the other talents. I like that I don't have to feel like I have to stand still. And I'm pretty sure Arcane is the only spec that really benefits from Rune of Power. Could be wrong though.

[Gamdwelf]

I use Invocation and I honestly always have. I prefer it over the other talents. I like that I don't have to feel like I have to stand still. And I'm pretty sure Arcane is the only spec that really benefits from Rune of Power. Could be wrong though.

Well RoP still gives 25% more damage or however much it is to frost and Fire.

[Imnick]

If you go OOM you are using Invocation incorrectly though... if you let the buff fall off and don't evocate to get it back then you are not utilising the talent properly, and if you use it every 40 seconds you will not be able to run out of mana.

[jtmzac]

You won't go oom with invocation. You might hit about 30% mana if hero is up when you open.

The standard frost opener is just pop all cd's, get all your FoF and BF charges up then alter time. This is somewhat easier with frost bomb because of the predictability of the BF proc so I suggest you start with frost bomb before moving to nether tempest so you get used to it.

The upside to nether tempest is that you won't usually get the BF proc as fast which makes the chance of wasting FoF or BF charges less while you get your frostbolt stacks up.

[Madruga]

Nice tips here, I'll use them myself =D

[announced]

prepull invocation/jade serpent pot if needed
frostbolt x3
frostbomb
pet freeze
alter time
icelance x2
(at debuff wears off) icelance x2 again (and free frostfire bolt if u got it)
pom frostbolt once to renew stacks
frozen orb
frostbomb again
keep up with frostbolt x3 debuffed and frostbomb on cd.. spend FoF charges on ice lance.. never ice lance unless its buffed by Fingers of frost
petfreeze again.. etc

just remember frozen orb always gives 1 fof charge at the start.. and one at the end.. sometimes much more in a huge mob.. also get the glyph of icelance for massive cleave dmg. and remember to invocate when u can.