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  1. #21
    I pretty much agree with everything you've said, regarding the specifics, but I also understand the big picture mentality of the "whiners." The fact of the matter is, it's a game, not a job. You're paying to play the game, not getting paid to play it. Many people view grinds as basically forced labor to get to the parts of the game they enjoy, and it's made worse by the often uptight player base who continually use the words "work" and "job" to describe how one should play the game. When it's common practice for guilds to give someone a set amount of time to get geared, tell them what spec they have to play, what professions to grind, what raids they're doing and when they're doing them, etc, it's a bit ridiculous. Some people just want to get on and play, and when they're "forced" to grind out things they don't want to do or experience to get there or be effective, it's only natural they're going to complain. I don't find them lazy, at all. It's a game, and it should be fun, not a grueling process to get to the fun. But regardless, your individual points about the added content are still quite true. I think it's more to do with the general player mentality of the game being "work" that's putting people off, more than the game itself.

  2. #22
    Brewmaster Xl House lX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slozon View Post
    Yup ignore,

    Pet battles
    Treasure hunting
    Achievements
    Brawlers guild
    Rare hunting

    Nah all you got this expansion was dailies.........
    To be fair, rarespawns aren't really rare in MoP, I found like 3-4 on my first day of level 90 back when I used to play. Achievements have always been in the game, and as with each expansion we can always expect more achievements, so nothing there really. Brawlers guild doesn't really have a good pay-off does it? Treasures in MoP award around 100g per box and are decently hard to find, its not really an extra activity as much as it is a 'nice thing to find while leveling'. Pet battles however I agree can be counted as more content.

    Oh and the brawlers guild thing again, it didn't really come with the expansion.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurv View Post
    Unfortunately I made the mistake, when I came back for MoP, to put the faith I still had left in Blizzard into a 6 months sub
    So my sub is still running (though cancelled) but I've already stopped playing given how awful/a chore the game has become.
    You subscribed for 6 months without checking "Is this the WOW I want to play?" ... we live in 2012, we have the internet with all the wonderful information, and yet you are blaming Blizzard?

    And furthermore, did it ever occur to you that you could resub for only one month and check the game out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trogdora View Post
    Achievements have always been in the game,
    Not always, more like "since the end of TBC".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    Pet battles that are appealing to certain players, achievements that most of the player base doesn't care about, wtf is treasure hunting? Brawlers guild is CONTENT? RARE hunting? I hope this post was sarcasm and not someone being serious.
    Oh, maybe you can tell what Most players care about"? You are one person, and think you know what 10 million subscribers want? Based on what?
    Last edited by vemynal; 2012-12-03 at 09:06 PM.

  4. #24
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    Intelligent debate is awesome and stuff, but lets tone down the hostility a bit, guys. Pretty please.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymei View Post
    YOU call this content?

    Pet battles that are appealing to certain players, achievements that most of the player base doesn't care about, wtf is treasure hunting? Brawlers guild is CONTENT? RARE hunting? I hope this post was sarcasm and not someone being serious.
    Content is not exclusive to dungeons and raids. What YOu call content is only done by a minority of people.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Okay..then mind explaining to me why even with your complaints they still have so many players, along with very positive feedback for 5.1? :x
    I mean I can give you lots of negative feedback about 5.1 but you'll dismiss it anyway. I could point you to Xfire activity that's down. WoWcensus that's down. All sorts of indicators but you won't accept it anyway. Why are you asking me for evidence when anything I could submit to you you will simple dismiss because it isn't from the holy word on high? LIke I told someone in the other thread. Wait till February. We'll see the numbers. In the meantime feel free to continue to tell players why they are just so wrong and why they should gain a better virtual work ethic. Please keep it up. This community never learns.

  7. #27
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    I mean I can give you lots of negative feedback about 5.1 but you'll dismiss it anyway. I could point you to Xfire activity that's down. WoWcensus that's down. All sorts of indicators but you won't accept it anyway. Why are you asking me for evidence when anything I could submit to you you will simple dismiss because it isn't from the holy word on high? LIke I told someone in the other thread. Wait till February. We'll see the numbers. In the meantime feel free to continue to be an asshole to your fellow players and tell them why they are so wrong for being upset and why they should gain a better virtual work ethic. Please keep it up.
    No I have my own dislikes to 5.1

    The fact that they got rid of how many bosses are left for LFR is irritating.

    Although I love the new 5.1 zones I at times really don't want to PVP and yet..yay..Alliance are killing me.

    Even if the numbers dwindle..I don't care, and neither should you nor anyone else.

    They still have a large player base who enjoys the game.

    Even if WoW was reduced to 5 million subscribers, more or less than that, I'd still play because I enjoy the game.
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  8. #28
    Work and Video Games don't belong in the same sentence for me. If I have to do something that feels like work in wow, I won't do it.

  9. #29
    Over 9000! Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    I mean I can give you lots of negative feedback about 5.1 but you'll dismiss it anyway. I could point you to Xfire activity that's down. WoWcensus that's down. All sorts of indicators but you won't accept it anyway. Why are you asking me for evidence when anything I could submit to you you will simple dismiss because it isn't from the holy word on high? LIke I told someone in the other thread. Wait till February. We'll see the numbers. In the meantime feel free to continue to be an asshole to your fellow players and tell them why they are so wrong for being upset and why they should gain a better virtual work ethic. Please keep it up.

    So 1 millions goes because they don't like the content. 4 million stay because they do. If you are blizzard what do you do?


    No one is saying everyone has to like it. But it's clear the majority does.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Christ. I could go through the list of inaccuracies and errors in your posts or just plain flat our wrong bullshit but let's take one virtually at random. Everybody asked for more to do. That is clever but inaccurate. No what everybody asked for was more content. More raids more dungeons. I don't recall a single SINGLE person saying hey blizzard take all that reward we were used to getting for years, make it grindy as hell and put it behind daily quests. You and BLizzard interpreted that to mean hey blizzard make shit hard for us but in reality what we wanted was no 9 month gaps between raid tiers. Or the 7 months between FL and the original raid tier.
    "no one wanted more things to do... they wanted more content." <-- lol, what you said means the same thing, in a general sense.

    The whole notion of having more dailies to do is to give players more things to do. You mention FL for another reason, but I'll use it here since it had a daily rep grind period. That rep grind in cata that was released with 4.2 lasted 2 weeks.... 2 weeks of daily and some server-side world pvp action then it was a ghost town across all servers. That was a bad design... but it used to work 8yrs ago, but gamers have evolved.

    Now you have endless dailies to do and blizz has given all the grinders all the grinding their hearts want. In order to maximize that potential to make it not go from high penetration at the begining and low penetration at the end, they put all those rewards in it.

    Ask yourself... would you rather grind the same dungeon for 12hrs getting badges to purchase a single epic item, of would you like to spice things up a bit and quest by doing the same thing? oh, and there's a bonus... you're alts won't have to repeat your steps since they get a rep bonus and only need to do half the work your main did.

    It's a great design and having many rewards except the usual "entry lvl epics" or mounts helps players fill in those extra item slots as they finish heroic dungeons and start raiding. The problem is like what the OP pointed out is that gamers today see all that grind as something "must do immediately" and all at once. That issue is not blizz's fault, as gamers QQ about, it's the gamer's.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    No I have my own dislikes to 5.1

    The fact that they got rid of how many bosses are left for LFR is irritating.

    Although I love the new 5.1 zones I at times really don't want to PVP and yet..yay..Alliance are killing me.

    Even if the numbers dwindle..I don't care, and neither should you nor anyone else.

    They still have a large player base who enjoys the game.

    Even if WoW was reduced to 5 million subscribers, more or less than that, I'd still play because I enjoy the game.
    oh you absolutely should care. Look I assume you like the daily system. Fine that's all well and good. But the daily system isn't gonna stick around or be meaningful in any sense if they lose to many players over it. Just like harder heroics. They obviously don't want to lose people. This is really is what the worst part of the community is. Instead of getting on your fellow players you SHOULD BE CALLING FOR CHANGES TO THIS CRAP. Even moderate suggestions. Like removing the rep requirement from the gear and increasing the rate at which you gain valor. That's a small and moderate change really. But instead you'd rather come on this forum, protest that people should learn to have a better virtual work ethic and defend changes to the reward structure of the game that hurt lots of players or that many many players will find unsatisfying.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    -If you love the Lore like I do and want to see the story and where it goes, you work for it.
    With not-too-smart blanket statements like this one, you obviously can justify any amount of "work". If the customer accepts this crap, a gaming company might as well hide story elements behind 20 times the amount of dailies that are required in MoP. Or replace soloable content with content that works only for groups of 75+ people. EQ redux.

    I feel the willingness to tailor its product for the customer is as low in the MMO industry as in virtually no other branch of the entertainment industry. If I want to watch NFL, I can do so alone in front of my tv, my pc or my mobile or I can with friends in a sports bar. And I can watch the full length game whenever I want. "Forcing" me to play my game daily, in chunks of three hours, with groups of 9 or 24 friends is a retarded concept that should have died 10 years ago. Leave it as an option for all I care but don't make it the only viable means to progress my char.

    ps. coming from someone who for years was paid for writing, weak arguments don't improve with liberal use of caps lock

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by slozon View Post
    So 1 millions goes because they don't like the content. 4 million stay because they do. If you are blizzard what do you do?


    No one is saying everyone has to like it. But it's clear the majority does.
    Well the majority liked them their hard heroics and you saw what happened. If their willing to accept millions leaving so they can retain the 4 million they would have retained under any system anyway then I guess that's a calculus they've made not a rational one anyway. The simple truth is that theirs a large chunk of you who wouldn't leave if they made any changes anyway.

  14. #34
    Cant stand OP. Obvious Blizzard fanboy.

  15. #35
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    oh you absolutely should care. Look I assume you like the daily system. Fine that's all well and good. But the daily system isn't gonna stick around or be meaningful in any sense if they lose to many players over it. Just like harder heroics. They obviously don't want to lose people. This is really is what the worst part of the community is. Instead of getting on your fellow players you SHOULD BE CALLING FOR CHANGES TO THIS CRAP. Even moderate suggestions. Like removing the rep requirement from the gear and increasing the rate at which you gain valor. That's a small and moderate change really. But instead you'd rather come on this forum, protest that people should learn to have a better virtual work ethic and defend changes to the reward structure of the game that hurt lots of players or that many many players will find unsatisfying.
    ...Why should I care?

    It's a game I enjoy. Why should anyone else tell me to care or not.

    The day I don't like what WoW is anymore, I'll quit just like you have.

    Until that day comes though, when I still thoroughly enjoy the game and the work the company that made it does, I will still play it. Doesn't matter how many subscribers they have.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterpd85 View Post
    "no one wanted more things to do... they wanted more content." <-- lol, what you said means the same thing, in a general sense.

    The whole notion of having more dailies to do is to give players more things to do. You mention FL for another reason, but I'll use it here since it had a daily rep grind period. That rep grind in cata that was released with 4.2 lasted 2 weeks.... 2 weeks of daily and some server-side world pvp action then it was a ghost town across all servers. That was a bad design... but it used to work 8yrs ago, but gamers have evolved.

    Now you have endless dailies to do and blizz has given all the grinders all the grinding their hearts want. In order to maximize that potential to make it not go from high penetration at the begining and low penetration at the end, they put all those rewards in it.

    Ask yourself... would you rather grind the same dungeon for 12hrs getting badges to purchase a single epic item, of would you like to spice things up a bit and quest by doing the same thing? oh, and there's a bonus... you're alts won't have to repeat your steps since they get a rep bonus and only need to do half the work your main did.

    It's a great design and having many rewards except the usual "entry lvl epics" or mounts helps players fill in those extra item slots as they finish heroic dungeons and start raiding. The problem is like what the OP pointed out is that gamers today see all that grind as something "must do immediately" and all at once. That issue is not blizz's fault, as gamers QQ about, it's the gamer's.

    I would rather grind the same dungeon for the exact reason that I would be in that dungeon anyway. I would rather be doing something that is insanely rewarding, over two different things that are only slightly rewarding.

    It's an extremely shitty design that was ostensible done to give "content" to players but in reality is meant to keep people subbed for 12 months and to ensure they never get ahead in the game. When people asled for more content that didn't mean give us more grind or make the game less rewarding so that we'd always have something to do. They meant release end game tiers at a better rate. If it takes you 7 months to release a raid people are gonna leave. If it takes you 9 months to give us any content people will leave under any system.

  17. #37
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan2k10 View Post
    Cant stand OP. Obvious Blizzard fanboy.
    /headscratch

    Okay..I mean..I used logic and I'm trying to justify what people are thinking when their own arguments make sense but aren't that thorough.

    If you insist, though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Okay..then mind explaining to me why even with your complaints they still have so many players, along with very positive feedback for 5.1? :x
    Because a huge number of Annual Pass Subscriptions, and 3 and 6 month renewals at the time of MoP's launch haven't expired, and the only people bothering to give feedback are the ones still playing rather than waiting for their subscriptions to expire. With the information presently available its impossible to say if WoW is doing fine right now or bleeding subscribers at an alarming rate.

    I'm very much a fan of what blizzard has produced in terms of content in MoP, but they went in and messed up the effort/reward structure PvE severely, and TonyIommi is absolutely correct when he said players asked for no more long gaps between new raid content and blizzard responded with "We'll make it take much much longer to finish with the same amount of content" through gating, grinding, and decimating the reward structure.

    People complaining about dailies are in essence complaining about the reward structure. Dailies do not feel optional to a lot of people who want to max out their character and while the rewards are compelling the rate at which you attain them is not anywhere near where it used to be. No one is complaining that there isn't a lot of content available right now, they are complaining that getting the rewards they are used to now takes much much longer.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    I would rather grind the same dungeon for the exact reason that I would be in that dungeon anyway. I would rather be doing something that is insanely rewarding, over two different things that are only slightly rewarding.

    It's an extremely shitty design that was ostensible done to give "content" to players but in reality is meant to keep people subbed for 12 months and to ensure they never get ahead in the game. When people asled for more content that didn't mean give us more grind or make the game less rewarding so that we'd always have something to do. They meant release end game tiers at a better rate. If it takes you 7 months to release a raid people are gonna leave. If it takes you 9 months to give us any content people will leave under any system.
    Dude, it's just your opinion and others. You don't have to force it on people. 0.o I'm not changing my mind and neither or you. Let's leave it at that. Keep it civil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    This is a personal argument against the still constant QQ with Dailies and gating through Dailies.

    Do people have this much of an issue working for things?

    I'll refer to a few points:

    1. They make you HAVE to work for Epics if you don't Raid.
    -The only source of Welfare Epics at this point is LFR, and that's for people who don't raid anymore, or who are looking for gear that they don't want to do dailies for or gear that won't drop in raid.
    -With the Daily system, Epics are blocked off and you have to WORK for them. It was one of the biggest complaints from the community I've observed over the last 2 years of being here. Since Wrath people have bitched about "Omg Purples are so easy to get now. Vanilla was better QQ."

    2. It gates the Story for those who want to see it.
    -If you love the Lore like I do and want to see the story and where it goes, you work for it. On a lore standpoint, you prove yourself to the faction or people you're working for, and they reward you with history you have questions for, including their own powerful armor.
    -Perfect example: The Klaxxi reveal where the Sha came from, along with who they truly worship, at the end of their questline. By doing this, those who want the answers work for them, and in the process gain satisfaction.

    3. If you raid, you should have no issue.
    -The dailies aren't for you, if you're doing them purely for gear.
    -RNG is RNG. It's the same as it always has been. If something drops you can use, your raid or guild uses whatever system it wants to for loot and you get it or you don't.
    -It was a god send that Blizzard added something like the Elder Charms of Good Fortune. But, once more, if you want it, work for it. If you want another chance at loot, which is something that should never be handed out for free, then you gain the Lesser Charms, and cash them in for those prized Elder Coins. I've received 3 piece of loot from them, for 3 slots (My gloves, Ring, and Trinket) I desperately needed to replace due to still having 463 iLevel gear.

    4. You, yes, ALL OF YOU, including myself, ASKED for more content.
    -Surprisingly, I remember seeing on these forums people LIKED the Molten Front. The system they currently have in Mists is like the Molten Front, and by doing that they offered loot to people who couldn't get gear from Raiding, while offering side rewards as well.
    -With these dailies, you're out exploring the World and experiencing even more story. Do you realize how much work they put into this expansion? The amount of new storylines, plus quests is monumental. There's never been a near equal amount of content at End Game to Levelling Experience than Mists.

    5. Don't burn yourself out. Take a break and explore, or go solo some Old Raids!
    -There's LFR, Scenarios, not to mention Heroic Dungeons as well that reward you with Valor as well. In no way, shape, nor form are Dailies your one source of Valor and gear. HEroic Dungeons occasionally drop Epics, along with Scenarios now, and of course there's LFR too.
    -Doing Dailies too much at one time will make you HATE the game. As Blizzard said in a blue post the other day, if they didn't have a cap on Valor, every player would feel forced to get to 3k over and over and over again to now level up the iLevel of their gear, along with buy all the gear they possibly can. It'd break the whole system and cause even more QQ from everyone because they'd be killing themselves over this game every day.
    -5.1 added a nifty little thing where most bosses from former raids are now solo-able. You don't even need to be in a raid anymore. By doing this they add more features that cause you able to make this into more of a personal game. You don't even have to play with anyone else: you do Dailies by yourself, LFR by yourself, get some cool looking gear or achievements from old raids too.

    So my question still stands:

    Is it THAT much of an issue to work for things?

    In no form do you have to do SHIT. You can simply raid or do LFR and never get any Elder Coins, nor get access to the Valor Point gear for people who sincerely need it and want to work for it.

    They're 100% optional.

    Apparently this community, and a lot of people in game, are convinced of this mentality:

    "Blizzard added X Y and Z, I HAVE to do them EVERY DAY AND EVERY CHANCE I GET."

    Which follows with..

    "OMG BLIZZ GG X Y Z IS BORING AND BROKEN."

    Unfortunately, and I hate to say it, ALL of you who have such a huge problem with dailies are doing it to yourselves.

    This game is much better because it's become more optional to play.

    Blizzard is doing its best to appeal to EVERYONE. Casuals, Semi Hardcore, and Hardcore player.

    Give them some slack. Most of you are still playing this game, and if you truly, TRULY hated it, you wouldn't be playing it anymore.

    You work for the gear you want. You work to see content. You work to see the story. You work to get access to every feature of content in this game.

    That's my argument and rant. Feel free to rip through it or agree.

    I love you. Can I have your babies?

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