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  1. #661
    Quote Originally Posted by marukale View Post
    This does raise the interesting point of at what point is someone a clicker, it is very possible to have a single mouseover macro bound to mouse button but click everything else. At that point are they a clicker or a keybinder? On the other extreme, I have mouse over macros for healing but still click for a very limited number of abilities, the main one being bloodlust, I use geist so clicking is quick and easy. The other abilities I click are ones which I vary rarely use in combot such as buffs that should have been applied before the fight starts. So how do you define a clicker? Someone who always clicks, someone who clicks the majority of the time or someone who clicks at least once on a fight?
    As a former clicker (now reformed), I feel I can shed some light onto this situation. Of course, standard caveats and all that - this is my personal experience, and should be taken with a grain of salt (and a lime and shot of Cuervo).

    I define a clicker as someone who routinely and consistently activates regularly used abilities (as part of a rotation), for most, if not all, of their non-cooldowns.

    I define a keybinder as someone who has bound every ability in their rotation (or the entire gamut of healing and tanking abilities), but may still click on things such as 1+ minute cooldowns (trinkets, the standard 2-3m DPS CDs, etc.) For things such as Bloodlust, Time Warp, etc., those abilities are ideal for being non-bound to prevent accidental discharge or premature elustulation (we've all experienced it at some point... you're just standing there, listening to your raid leader talk, buffing up, and all of a sudden... RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR!). Those things should go somewhere else, in an easily accessible but unbound place (or bind them, but place them nowhere near your regular bindings - the numpad is a good place for those).

    I raided Top-100 US for a time in TBC as a clicker. So it is possible to succeed with this mindset, but things weren't as varied as they are now. I was a destruction warlock who scrollcasted. Me clicking was putting dots and curses up, then spamming my mousewheel for shadowbolt spam. Anything other than shadowbolt was moved to, and clicked on.

    Now I'm a keybinder (the button gaming mice introduced since WoW's inception have been a miracle for me, as I couldn't quite grasp binding on my keyboard). I have, through practice, been able to bind 1 through 12 with both shift and, depending on ability, control modifiers. As such, as I have three full rows of action bars I'm able to activate without needing to look down at my bars aside from noticing time remaining, and can keep my eyes on the action.

    Before: Staring at buttons/bars the majority of the time, and glancing up at the action.
    Now: Staring at the action the majority of the time, and glancing at my bars.

    I'd like to get to the point where I can hide the bars I've bound, but I like the visual reinforcement they provide in case I have a brain fart and forget, for whatever reason, my binding for a particular ability.

    Now, to make this even more interesting - does anyone find any validity in the following statement?

    Former clickers make for better healers since they're used to looking at (action bars/health bars) and glancing at mechanics in an encounter.

  2. #662
    Since you’re doing some kind of paper you could try this as an experiment. Type your name into a word doc and time yourself, then use the onscreen keyboard to type your name and time yourself.

    As a healer I am practically active for 99% plus of a fight, so if I had to click on someone in the raid and then click a spell our raids would have zero chance of survival, especially since they are now 2 healable, if that is a word.

    I used to click in TBC on a warrior tank (apart from spamming 1234 on keyboard) and it wasn't that bad, in Wrath I moved to a shaman healer and used Healbot, now I use Grid and mouse over macros and the difference is unbelievable.

    I now use key binds for almost every ability, with the exception of the useless ones and the super important ones like heroism. The only reason I do not key bind heroism is there have been too many mistaken casts of heroism. I've tried giving it different key binds, but I cannot seem to get one I can reach without putting something else out.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 04:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindican View Post
    As a former clicker (now reformed), I feel I can shed some light onto this situation. Of course, standard caveats and all that - this is my personal experience, and should be taken with a grain of salt (and a lime and shot of Cuervo).

    I define a clicker as someone who routinely and consistently activates regularly used abilities (as part of a rotation), for most, if not all, of their non-cooldowns.

    I define a keybinder as someone who has bound every ability in their rotation (or the entire gamut of healing and tanking abilities), but may still click on things such as 1+ minute cooldowns (trinkets, the standard 2-3m DPS CDs, etc.) For things such as Bloodlust, Time Warp, etc., those abilities are ideal for being non-bound to prevent accidental discharge or premature elustulation (we've all experienced it at some point... you're just standing there, listening to your raid leader talk, buffing up, and all of a sudden... RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR!). Those things should go somewhere else, in an easily accessible but unbound place (or bind them, but place them nowhere near your regular bindings - the numpad is a good place for those).

    I raided Top-100 US for a time in TBC as a clicker. So it is possible to succeed with this mindset, but things weren't as varied as they are now. I was a destruction warlock who scrollcasted. Me clicking was putting dots and curses up, then spamming my mousewheel for shadowbolt spam. Anything other than shadowbolt was moved to, and clicked on.

    Now I'm a keybinder (the button gaming mice introduced since WoW's inception have been a miracle for me, as I couldn't quite grasp binding on my keyboard). I have, through practice, been able to bind 1 through 12 with both shift and, depending on ability, control modifiers. As such, as I have three full rows of action bars I'm able to activate without needing to look down at my bars aside from noticing time remaining, and can keep my eyes on the action.

    Before: Staring at buttons/bars the majority of the time, and glancing up at the action.
    Now: Staring at the action the majority of the time, and glancing at my bars.

    I'd like to get to the point where I can hide the bars I've bound, but I like the visual reinforcement they provide in case I have a brain fart and forget, for whatever reason, my binding for a particular ability.

    Now, to make this even more interesting - does anyone find any validity in the following statement?

    Former clickers make for better healers since they're used to looking at (action bars/health bars) and glancing at mechanics in an encounter.
    I couldn't agree more with what you have just said, it's like it came from the same brain! Did you steal my thoughts?

  3. #663
    The Patient Volbian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ranku View Post
    honestly as i have said before, it all depends on how you memorize your abilities. if you know where everything is then you can reach the "oh shit" cooldown that you need with a twitch of the thumb no matter where it is and then click it. the entire process takes 0.1 seconds to realize what ability is needed and another 0.1 seconds to travel and click. it all depends on how well you know what you are doing.

    also just thought of something, keybinds must be hard on altaholics. basically have to relearn what buttons do what when you switch to the one you haven't used in a while.
    ^This. Another reason why i think clicking is better then keybinds. And yes it is MY preference also.

    So far from reading all these posts. There is NO solid proof that keybinds are better than clicking or vice versa. All i'm reading is opinions on why a certain preference is better. You say Keybinds is faster reaction...PROVE IT. You cant, these are just words and experiences people have. It also comes down to reflexes and your own personal agility. When i type, i chicken peck everything VS someone who uses 2 hands. I'm sure at 50wpm, theyre certain people i can beat, theyre also certain people i cant. Does it make it wrong?? No, its a preference and something youve been accustomed to for a very long time. So long, that its just natural thing.

    As WE all say in-game. "PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN". Prove keybinds are better and vice versa, and not personal experiences.

    Added: Also consider ALL factors such as: Not everyone has fast PCs, not everyone's hands are built the same(long fingers VS short stubby fingers), not everyone has a 300 button mouse.
    Last edited by Volbian; 2012-12-11 at 04:51 PM.

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volbian View Post
    ^This. Another reason why i think clicking is better then keybinds. And yes it is MY preference also.

    So far from reading all these posts. There is NO solid proof that keybinds are better than clicking or vice versa. All i'm reading is opinions on why a certain preference is better. You say Keybinds is faster reaction...PROVE IT. You cant, these are just words and experiences people have. It also comes down to reflexes and your own personal agility. When i type, i chicken peck everything VS someone who uses 2 hands. I'm sure at 50wpm, theyre certain people i can beat, theyre also certain people i cant. Does it make it wrong?? No, its a preference and something youve been accustomed to for a very long time. So long, that its just natural thing.

    As WE all say in-game. "PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN". Prove keybinds are better and vice versa, and not personal experiences.

    Added: Also consider ALL factors such as: Not everyone has fast PCs, not everyone's hands are built the same(long fingers VS short stubby fingers), not everyone has a 300 button mouse.
    not that this is much of a rebuttal but, i'm sure if you were to asked/poll/interview members from DREAM paragon/method/vodka (name random top 10 guilds in the world here)...99.9999999999999% of them would be keybinders, why do you think when you are applying for serious/semi serious raiding guilds they require you to post a SS of your UI (its not because they wanna marvel in your UI), its because from looking at your UI, one can easily determine if your a clicker or a keybinder, and the moment they see your a clicker (while i dont know this first hand since i, myself am a keybinder but) you'll get mocked/trolled/instantly declined.

    I used to be a clicker in bc/wrath, then come early cata i began to get the feeling that clicking was holding me back...that i wasn't preforming optimally clicking, and that my guild deserved for me to play at my best, so i switched to keybinding, and quite frankly never looked back, once i got used to the keybind set up i came up on my own, the rest was history...

    There is one thing i can say about keybinding, that i see alot of people worry about (how can you remember multiple binds for multiple toons?). The answer is muscle memory i believe. After you've done something numerous times, and "smashed" the key enough times, you began to remember what key is does, and do it automatically.

    While, i'll never say clicking is bad, I will say this. I do believe one can never truly play most optimally, if he/she is clicking.
    Last edited by Noujou; 2012-12-11 at 06:14 PM.


  5. #665
    The Patient Volbian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noujou View Post
    not that this is much of a rebuttal but, i'm sure if you were to asked/poll/interview members from DREAM paragon/method/vodka (name random top 10 guilds in the world here)...99.9999999999999% of them would be keybinders, why do you think when you are applying for serious/semi serious raiding guilds they require you to post a SS of your UI (its not because they wanna marvel in your UI), its because from looking at your UI, one can easily determine if your a clicker or a keybinder, and the moment they see your a clicker (while i dont know this first hand since i, myself am a keybinder but) you'll get mocked/trolled/instantly declined.

    I used to be a clicker in bc/wrath, then come early cata i began to get the feeling that clicking was holding me back...that i wasn't preforming optimally clicking, and that my guild deserved for me to play at my best, so i switched to keybinding, and quite frankly never looked back, once i got used to the keybind set up i came up on my own, the rest was history...

    There is one thing i can say about keybinding, that i see alot of people worry about (how can you remember multiple binds for multiple toons?). The answer is muscle memory i believe. After you've done something numerous times, and "smashed" the key enough times, you began to remember what key is does, and do it automatically.

    While, i'll never say clicking is bad, I will say this. I do believe one can never truly play most optimally, if he/she is clicking.
    First, idc about Top 10 Progression Guilds. I dont fall in that league, nor do i have the committment to.
    Second, i know you're not giving me a rebuttal, but you're still repeating what every Keybinder is saying without proof. Again, this is your personal preference.
    Maybe you feel you're doing better vs before. Maybe you have a Razor Naga and all your buttons are on your mouse. Maybe you dont, but have piano fingers to make reaching certain keys easier.

    I'm pretty sure if you were a midget, clicking would be easier because they dont have the reach, in their fingers, to hit the appropiate keybinds(Especially using Shift or Click ones). There are numerous reasons why certain players PREFER playing one way VS another. Doesnt mean its better(until i see hands down proof).
    People keep saying muscle memory, well there's certain things in life that you dont care to remember or maybe cant. It comes down to whats important to remember.

    I, myself, cant remember phone numbers, birthdates, even names of people sometime. With the technology given in todays society, i dont need to remember those things, just put in in my phone along with their name and set reminders. As far as people's names, if they arent useful to me at that moment or can be down the road, it doesnt matter. So, again, i only store important information in my brain, and just maybe, since i'm not striving to be in Top 10 World guilds, it doesnt matter.

    Not like US progression guilds are awesome anyways, EU dominates in progression. Thats because, i think, WE DONT CARE, myself included. We're lazy Americans and worry about ourselves and what others can do for us. Welcome to world we live in.
    Last edited by Volbian; 2012-12-11 at 07:00 PM.

  6. #666
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    I raided Dragonsoul to completion on 10 toons. For MOP it will be 11. Learning the keybinds for 11 different max level toons is just insane.


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  7. #667
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    I raided Dragonsoul to completion on 10 toons. For MOP it will be 11. Learning the keybinds for 11 different max level toons is just insane.
    It's not really hard to when you try to follow a similar pattern. For me:

    - F is my interrupt for all characters that have one
    - G is my major defensive cooldown (like Shield Wall for warrior, IBF for DK, Desperate Prayer for my priest)
    - R is my refresh, like shout for warrior or horn for DK
    - 1 to 5 are my main abilities with 5 usually being an AoE and 1 being a taunt for all tank classes
    - Shift-R is always my trinket/human racial
    - Shift-Q/Shift-E are always stealth. If not a stealth class, they summon pets/minions
    - Q is always my quick "hit them with it" kinda thing, like outbreak for my DK, leap for warrior, mind spike for priest

    If you follow a common ground between characters you find you can bind for everyone



  8. #668
    Mechagnome
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    I play almost exclusively as a hunter and I find it easier to move and shoot at the same time if I click most of my shots and abilities. I do use some macros and keybinds but they are a minority. I can see how if you had to stand still while attacking or casting keybinds would be helpful.

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