Why no rush to kill Heroic Elite Protectors?

[Rezhial]

I hope no one actually expects a video... I feel like a few people will be let down lol

[Asta]

I think the better question is how are you sure its him?

[Asta]

Awesome. (How you find the alts I dunno but nice work)

This video will be epic, I can see it now.

[Deleted]

Hahah, that is some strong detective skills.

Classic thread

[Squirl]

I hope no one actually expects a video... I feel like a few people will be let down lol

I wouldn't say "let down".

Can't wait for that video! I know you're working hard on it.

[eijin]

Awesome. (How you find the alts I dunno but nice work)

This video will be epic, I can see it now.

wowprogress.com keeps up with alts. not 100% posative how they do it, but if i log onto a character it knows that character is my alt. probably something relating to account bound achievements?

[Phookah]

wowprogress.com keeps up with alts. not 100% posative how they do it, but if i log onto a character it knows that character is my alt. probably something relating to account bound achievements?

There is a program you can get that shows all the alts of a person when they post on the official wow forums.

[Elysia]

Naming & shaming is never okay on these forums. Stick to the original thread topic or this will be closed.

[DocQuantum]

Is it even mathematically doable?

We downed H Protectors (10-man; non-elite) last night... and we're not sure, even with full BiS gear (which, of course, none of us have) that it's even possible.

(10-man, at least; no clue about 25-man. Not really looking to get into yet-another-discussion about the merits of 10-vs.-25-man raiding.)

[Rustjive]

I guess I understand...? Is it shaming to disprove a lie?

Edit: Oh well. I guess the rest of the thread has given good reasons why it's mathematically very difficult to have done it so far.

[Dubalicious]

Is it even mathematically doable?

In BiS or near BiS I'm sure it is. Guilds will be 507+ geared across the board before much longer as opposed to the current 500+. That will likely include big ticket items like Weapons and trinkets on a good portion of the raid.

It will be interesting to see who gets it first and when they get it. I imagine it will be one of the "big name" guilds, but there could always be a guild that forgoes Sha (maybe other bosses) to really go for it. Seems unlikely unless somebody just really wants a world first and thinks they can get it

[Tojara]

We did last night too and we don't see how it would be currently possible. Every 30 seconds a touch of Kaolan goes out. It takes us roughly 3 1/2 minutes (maybe 10 seconds less)to kill Kaolan first, but I can easily see that being sub 3 minutes with better players and better gear. Regail and Asani have 40% less HP than Kaolan meaning that you can likely kill Regail in about two and a half minutes or five debuffs ticking for 120k, which is obviously pretty doable. The reason you won't kill Regail that much quicker is because you will have less Sha buffs which make the last 25-30% of Kaolan first go by pretty quick.

The benefit of Regail being down is probably less overall 'burst' raid damage, and obviously less movement. P2 sha adds come quicker and you have to deal with the water bubbles in the middle as well. So again, this phase at best is probably going to take two minutes maybe less. You're starting the phase with 5 people taking 150k damage every three seconds, and ending the phase with 9 people taking 150k damage every 3 seconds. This is a lot of damage.

Finally the last phase is probably going to take at least two and a half minutes I would argue. Now the math I did in the earlier phases means you have plenty of time on enrage, but don't take that as gospel because I am just loosely stating numbers. Suffice to say you're like doing the last phase for nearly two minutes under ideal circumstances with 10 people taking 180k damage every three seconds. There are no cleansing waters to abuse in this phase, you're rapidly running out of room because of expel corruption and moving around like that will be some strain on killing the adds correctly and/or on the ideal targets.

Lastly starting in P2 the tank is periodically going to get a nasty debuff that lasts two minutes. On 10 man NORMAL elite I can solo tank this debuff the entire time with good CD usage. I don't think this is possible on heroic given that the base damage is up nearly 65%. You would have to have a tank swap in there somewhere to drop the debuff. This can be accomplished in a number of ways, such as having a DPS taunt under major CDs in p2 to take the first couple of stacks (so that you're real tank can tank the remainder of the encounter), or the other way of having a second tank in an encounter that is one tanked at the moment, which further strains the DPS requirement on an already strict encounter. This tank can wear DPS gear, but it's still not going to be as much as a traditional DPS.

I don't know there is a lot going against you doing Kaolan last. When we killed it on Heroic with Asani last we killed him in just over a minute and the raid damage was getting absolutely insane towards the end. Cleansing waters DOESN'T WORK in P3 doing it in the optimal order and I can tell you that close to that minute mark when the entire raid was taking 180-200k damage every 3 seconds (the damage Kaolan would be doing to your ENTIRE raid for 40% longer because of having higher HP than the other two) that people were just starting to drop.

Baseline touch of kaolan does 120k on heroic difficulty, and unless each protector death DOESN'T buff touch of kaolan damage I don't see how a raid could keep up with the healing required and the DPS required if the ticks are doing 180k damage for near or over two minutes.

[Snuzzfizzle]

Coining the boss when killed on normal gave incorrect loot, yes, but they were hotfixed and returned to normal. .

You wish. Blizzard didn't return those items to normal.

[Sunshine]

I guess I understand...? Is it shaming to disprove a lie?

Edit: Oh well. I guess the rest of the thread has given good reasons why it's mathematically very difficult to have done it so far.

To make the forum a safe place for everyone to discuss, yes, we don't allow posting of what may be private information (in-game character names, armories, etc) -- we've had people get seriously harassed in-game when something like that happens.

Proving that something is mathematically difficult or otherwise doesn't make sense is the right way to go about it, and if your arguments make sense against someone that's lying, other people will realize and believe you.

[Deleted]

We did last night too and we don't see how it would be currently possible. Every 30 seconds a touch of Kaolan goes out. It takes us roughly 3 1/2 minutes (maybe 10 seconds less)to kill Kaolan first, but I can easily see that being sub 3 minutes with better players and better gear. Regail and Asani have 40% less HP than Kaolan meaning that you can likely kill Regail in about two and a half minutes or five debuffs ticking for 120k, which is obviously pretty doable. The reason you won't kill Regail that much quicker is because you will have less Sha buffs which make the last 25-30% of Kaolan first go by pretty quick.

The benefit of Regail being down is probably less overall 'burst' raid damage, and obviously less movement. P2 sha adds come quicker and you have to deal with the water bubbles in the middle as well. So again, this phase at best is probably going to take two minutes maybe less. You're starting the phase with 5 people taking 150k damage every three seconds, and ending the phase with 9 people taking 150k damage every 3 seconds. This is a lot of damage.

Finally the last phase is probably going to take at least two and a half minutes I would argue. Now the math I did in the earlier phases means you have plenty of time on enrage, but don't take that as gospel because I am just loosely stating numbers. Suffice to say you're like doing the last phase for nearly two minutes under ideal circumstances with 10 people taking 180k damage every three seconds. There are no cleansing waters to abuse in this phase, you're rapidly running out of room because of expel corruption and moving around like that will be some strain on killing the adds correctly and/or on the ideal targets.

Lastly starting in P2 the tank is periodically going to get a nasty debuff that lasts two minutes. On 10 man NORMAL elite I can solo tank this debuff the entire time with good CD usage. I don't think this is possible on heroic given that the base damage is up nearly 65%. You would have to have a tank swap in there somewhere to drop the debuff. This can be accomplished in a number of ways, such as having a DPS taunt under major CDs in p2 to take the first couple of stacks (so that you're real tank can tank the remainder of the encounter), or the other way of having a second tank in an encounter that is one tanked at the moment, which further strains the DPS requirement on an already strict encounter. This tank can wear DPS gear, but it's still not going to be as much as a traditional DPS.

I don't know there is a lot going against you doing Kaolan last. When we killed it on Heroic with Asani last we killed him in just over a minute and the raid damage was getting absolutely insane towards the end. Cleansing waters DOESN'T WORK in P3 doing it in the optimal order and I can tell you that close to that minute mark when the entire raid was taking 180-200k damage every 3 seconds (the damage Kaolan would be doing to your ENTIRE raid for 40% longer because of having higher HP than the other two) that people were just starting to drop.

Baseline touch of kaolan does 120k on heroic difficulty, and unless each protector death DOESN'T buff touch of kaolan damage I don't see how a raid could keep up with the healing required and the DPS required if the ticks are doing 180k damage for near or over two minutes.

Since Kaolan has double the hp of the first 2, the last phase should take closer to 3.5-4 minutes, of which 2.5-3 minutes will be with the entire raid having the touch of sha debuff (on 25man it takes exactly 5 minutes for Kaolan to debuff the entire raid, 1 every 12 seconds).

---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 12:18 PM ----------

If you compare the difficulty of Hc:sha of fear to HC elite protectors, sha of fear is basically a lot of repetition for ~15 minutes before it gradually starts to get more difficult due to the number of adds spawning. (I'd say the first 15 minutes of H:sha of fear are easier than the last phase of H:zorlok)

While hc elite protectors is fairly easy for 4 minutes, and then 4 minutes of extreme difficulty. No gradual increase involved.

[Radalek]

Still no video from that "world first" guy?

[Rinoa]

I spoke briefly with a member of Method when he was streaming this evening and asked him if they'd be going for a Heroic Elite Protectors of the Endless kill. He responded with a no followed by a brief explanation which, in essence, was that they didn't have enough gear yet. He said it might be possible in BiS gear with a really amazing raid comp, but they weren't even close at the moment.

[HhitSappens]

Also, remember that if you kill the low HP guys first, it will trigger the adds spawning quickler. What does it mean?
Basically killing Kaolan -> Lightning -> Water will make you get all 5 groups with 9 stacks very close to the enrage...
But since you are killing the 1st boss way faster, you will have more stacks than you can handle, which will probably involve some weird strat where people will let either stair stack explode on purpose (being 30yd away to not DMG anyone) or they will let their stacks fall off (huge dps loss towards the enrage).

Having done this encounter many times on heroic non-elite, I can only imagine how painful it will be trying it on hard mode.. 150k Touch of Sha ticks * 50% dmg from 2x Sha Doses * 25 members... gl

[NeverStop]

Also, remember that if you kill the low HP guys first, it will trigger the adds spawning quickler. What does it mean?
Basically killing Kaolan -> Lightning -> Water will make you get all 5 groups with 9 stacks very close to the enrage...
But since you are killing the 1st boss way faster, you will have more stacks than you can handle, which will probably involve some weird strat where people will let either stair stack explode on purpose (being 30yd away to not DMG anyone) or they will let their stacks fall off (huge dps loss towards the enrage).

Having done this encounter many times on heroic non-elite, I can only imagine how painful it will be trying it on hard mode.. 150k Touch of Sha ticks * 50% dmg from 2x Sha Doses * 25 members... gl

8 Paladin healers, rotate Hand of Purity on everyone.

[Dubalicious]

It will be interesting to see how much of a buffer on the enrage guilds are getting on regular heroic over the next couple weeks as you will almost certainly need more than 6 healers for elite