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  1. #1
    High Overlord Aqacia's Avatar
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    [General] Frost > Fire?

    I've been reading through the Fire hotfix thread to see what people think of the new fire change. From what I've seen, many say it fuckd fire over and others say it simply balanced it a bit. All the diffrent answers confuse me and I don't know what to believe.

    My question is; What is the top chart DPS specilization now? Frost, Fire or perhaps Arcane? Perhaps its too early to say?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    fucked fire over? you guys have been topping parses on almost every single fight, I don't necessarily think it's that big of an issue. Isn't frost bottom of the parses for 25m? our mage tonight in HoF was still pushing insane numbers :P

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by HitPoint View Post
    fucked fire over? you guys have been topping parses on almost every single fight, I don't necessarily think it's that big of an issue. Isn't frost bottom of the parses for 25m? our mage tonight in HoF was still pushing insane numbers :P
    Are there logs of this so we can see for ourselves what you define as insane?

  4. #4
    Arcane take far too big of a hit moving to have a real shot at being the top spec for more then a fight here and there. Poor ranged aoe and cleave abilities don't help either. Even with the nerfs to fire on the cleave friendly fights it will pull ahead easily.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogge View Post
    Are there logs of this so we can see for ourselves what you define as insane?
    I'd also like to see logs (proof) too.

  6. #6
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    The nerf is a steep one, and it nerfs our damage from pre 5.1 levels.

    50% of Ignite tick is Combustion; pre-5.1 it was 50% of Ignite and 33% of Pyro - you lose the Pyro factor so now Combustion is weaker than before.
    On top of this you have Critical Mass nerf, which makes us MORE RNG-dependant to pull decent DPS and nerfs our crit with crit being most important stat.

    Don't know whether Frost is stronger or not, but Fire's damage should be ~middle of the pack, instead of top.

  7. #7
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...um/damageDone/

    It does seem like his dps dipped quite a bit from his usual top 2 every night self, but he was still pulling numbers that outweigh frost by a large margin. He was also complaining about not critting as often and melee was actually able to compete with him, but it didn't prevent us from downing bosses.

  8. #8
    The Patient Brewswami's Avatar
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    Since 5.1 I upgraded some of my gear but not by too much, had 2p before 5.1. Guild raids 2 nights FRI/SAT in a 10m. Did HOF 6/6 one night and 4/4 Terrace the next. Was top dps on ~7/10 fights where pre 5.1 it would have been 10/10. I will not doubt that it is a 15%+ nerf b/c even though on some fights I had my personal best I can chalk that up to luck/new gear/fight experience. Some fights I was having terrible critless streaks and did 10k worse then ever. WOL were not put up for most of the fights but i have our wipes and kill on the Empress to show http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ses&boss=62837. All dps was approximately the same ilvl at this point.
    Jobahlie-Mage- Only of it's kind since Vanilla WoW

  9. #9
    I've looked at both logs and both of the mages still have Pyroblast as their top damage done spells, which means they still proced a decent amount.
    I'm currently experiencing Fireball being top because of much lesser procs and crits.
    I'm not sure if I'm only having bad luck or your mages are having good luck.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewswami View Post
    Since 5.1 I upgraded some of my gear but not by too much, had 2p before 5.1. Guild raids 2 nights FRI/SAT in a 10m. Did HOF 6/6 one night and 4/4 Terrace the next. Was top dps on ~7/10 fights where pre 5.1 it would have been 10/10. I will not doubt that it is a 15%+ nerf b/c even though on some fights I had my personal best I can chalk that up to luck/new gear/fight experience. Some fights I was having terrible critless streaks and did 10k worse then ever. WOL were not put up for most of the fights but i have our wipes and kill on the Empress to show http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ses&boss=62837. All dps was approximately the same ilvl at this point.
    I have to agree with brewswami, 15% seems about right and would put fire at above middle of the pack now. I do feel your pain as I primarily play a mistweaver and mage alt and just got nerfbatted again. But despite the nerfs I still manage to pull ahead, it seems blizzard can't make up there minds with balancing and the nerfs will keep coming unfortunately.

    Back OT, has anyone tested frost and have any recent parses on elegon? Would be interesting to see.
    Last edited by HitPoint; 2012-12-02 at 01:22 PM.

  11. #11
    Fire just got more RNG again, the combustion nerf only contribute to 5% dps loss.
    So if a mage has good RNG again, he still will top parses, only thing that changed is that this will happen less often. What will happen more now is that mages will be at the bottom with bad RNG.
    So yeah, bad change, but for any not-on-the-cutting-edge progressing guild, it should not make any difference.
    As for arcane, its still crap, because you can only play it on fights where you can play with rune.
    Frost is an alternative but might still be worst in 90% of the fights than fire, but much more consistent.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Aqacia's Avatar
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    So do you recommend me to stick with Fire, since my gear is all set up with gems/reforges/choice of gear? The nerf is a DPS loss, but still not enough to make the other 2 specializations better?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Aqacia View Post
    So do you recommend me to stick with Fire, since my gear is all set up with gems/reforges/choice of gear? The nerf is a DPS loss, but still not enough to make the other 2 specializations better?
    If to believe simcraft, fire is like one of the worst dps specs atm: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

    Not sure though how reliable and accurate this thing is.

  14. #14
    I'm in this pickle as well right now. Not sure if I have to go Frost or stay Fire number-wise. Both specs are a lot of fun to play tho, so for enjoyment of the game it doesn't matter much to me. However not being able to keep up with damage in the raid will be a big downer on my overall experience. Also, if I have to believe a lot of other non-mage players, I do terrible dps since I'm not able to get 160k DPS done on Guardians HC for instance (http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hbara...e/?s=518&e=874, first kill while painting).

    But my advice to Aqacia would be: Play the spec you find most enjoyable. I found playing a spec that you find the most fun but is sub par, will make you able to do better than that and still keep the performance at an acceptable level.

    Hopefully that made a bit of sense. Also this advice is given from a "not-so-cutting-edge" perspective like previously mentioned.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sephrie View Post
    If to believe simcraft, fire is like one of the worst dps specs atm: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

    Not sure though how reliable and accurate this thing is.
    It puts arcane as the #1 spec. I think that about says all.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sephrie View Post
    If to believe simcraft, fire is like one of the worst dps specs atm: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

    Not sure though how reliable and accurate this thing is.
    Sims are useful for one thing and one thing only; finding out your stat weights.

    A Computer can calculate things far better than we can and Sims make 0 mistakes and play to utter perfection, something players don't. They also don't factor in RNG and how that can come into play.

  17. #17
    ---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 06:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Sims are useful for one thing and one thing only; finding out your stat weights.

    A Computer can calculate things far better than we can and Sims make 0 mistakes and play to utter perfection, something players don't. They also don't factor in RNG and how that can come into play.
    Thiiiiiiiiiiiis x1000, people don't take into account that fire is one of the most RNG based specs and especially after the hotfix. Simcraft and RNG don't play nice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aqacia View Post
    So do you recommend me to stick with Fire, since my gear is all set up with gems/reforges/choice of gear? The nerf is a DPS loss, but still not enough to make the other 2 specializations better?
    Stick with it imo, until the simcraft(lolrng) going around is proven accurate and raidbot gets further parsed can't really judge. May the RNG gods be with you


    Edit - Woops sorry about the double post, ipad is being naughty!
    Last edited by HitPoint; 2012-12-02 at 02:05 PM.

  18. #18
    Im quite comfortable saying that frost > fire in bis gear.

    If you use the hotfix data and change the simcraft fire mage bis dmg from different abilities you end up losing around 12k dps from fireball, pyro and combustion. I dont think it's that simple especially for ignite damage as there's quite a bit of synergy between the different damage factors of the fire rotation but 12k is a low estimate using napkin math. I wouldnt be surprised if the actual loss ends being above 15k in hc bis gear

  19. #19
    So hear this. I just did a 5 minute near-perfect play test on the single target dummy for 5 minutes with all CDs used in only normal mage buffs and here is what I got at ilevel 495.

    Fire: 75k dps at 5 minutes
    Frost: 79k dps at 5 minutes
    Arcane 89k dps at 5 minutes

    You guys decide.

  20. #20
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkender View Post
    So hear this. I just did a 5 minute near-perfect play test on the single target dummy for 5 minutes with all CDs used in only normal mage buffs and here is what I got at ilevel 495.

    Fire: 75k dps at 5 minutes
    Frost: 79k dps at 5 minutes
    Arcane 89k dps at 5 minutes

    You guys decide.
    At the moment I'm seriously looking into the possibility of trying out Arcane; Fire will still win on Cleave fights and fights with a fair amount of movement, Frost will be decent in most situations and Arcane seems to be REALLY good on fights where there's little/no movement and it's single target.
    I say Fire for fairly movement-heavy fights because of how Scorch fits into Fire's rotation. Movement for Frost and Arcane can be a real dampener.

    At the moment, as things stand, I'll be keeping Fire/Arcane as my two specs, but the consist reforging between certain fights might prove to be a bit of a pain.

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