Seems Iran got another US drone.

[Reeve]

Should have put quotes around Roman. I just meant the world leader. We have our hand in everything. Throught history these types of nations have a tendency to collapse themselves not be taken over. We keep a watch on our best intrests and influence the world in a way that best benefits us.

Sure, but if the US is Rome, we still have many centuries to go before we collapse.

[Orange Joe]

It's not that, it's the fact that it was where it was, doing what it was. If it's true then it's messed up.

Because Iran is 100% truthful. Am I right?

[Beavis]

The tax system changed over time, with the biggest changes during the time of Diocletian, but the early system was one where the government would auction off the rights to collect taxes in a specific region to private companies. The one with the highest bidder would get to go collect those taxes in the name of Rome. Kinda fucked up, really. Diocletian changed things so that people would submit taxes in terms of whatever good they had on hand, and there was a table of equivalency for all goods. It made it easier to get people to pay their taxes and also standardized the system better.

Well, that is pretty different. But still, it isn't a totally foreign concept. That's essentially the modern debt collection business.

The tangibility of the return on military spending makes military spending much less expensive is how it changes things. It also makes war much more popular, since people expect to see wealth flood into their country as a result of the war.

Right, but that's about cost and incentive. It's actually makes war fight more neatly into economics. It costs X to conquer Gaul and we can expect Y in return. Today, military spending is all about 2nd and 3rd order effects.

[Nadev]

"America, stop being nosy and stay out of other countries' business".

"America, quit being greedy, fat and lazy and go help Africa".

Off-topic, in a nutshell.

[Collegeguy]

No they're not. Rome existed in a time before reserve banking, treasury bonds, etc. There was some degree of private financing, but the way it operated was totally different. The tax structure of the Roman Empire was completely different from anything practiced anywhere today. Markets were shifted greatly by the availability of slave labor. When Caesar invaded Gaul, he was sending back treasure troves and slaves. We don't have spoils of war anymore in the same way we did back then. It's honestly far more different than it is the same.

Fighting the Barbarians in Germania bankrupted them during emperor Marcus where he had to sell his own belongings to pay his soldiers. The only reason they came out of it was by finding a hidden treasure. This is the time where most if not all scholars will tell you the beginning of the end for Rome.

Anyway, yes it's very different, but if anything it's likely worse for today. We have a political machine that is neither adept nor capable of handling financing like a private industry can.

[Deleted]

----------------------POINT 1------------------------
I find it funny that you have difficulty believing that Irnians might not like the Religious totalitarian system they have. They really don't need to have an out side push, infact the reason it didn't go further was the lack of outside assisstance.
Also why are you personalising this discussion? I am not a goverment employee, elected person, or anything but some fat slob in Los Angeles. I have had several Iranian Lovers in the past and really get upset when I hear about things happening to family of my friends. It might surprise you to know that not all Iranians like the system or even Islam.
Remember earlier in this thread how I said every region in the world has been a super power at some point? well Iran aka Persia was the Worlds Super power from the Dawn of Civilization until Islam smashed the persian civilazation. Most Iranians I know who are muslim hate how Islam distroyed their history. It's a bit ironic really.
---------------------POINT 2-----------
Actually, they have given money to several well know Terrorist organizations over the years, they supported the Taliban, the only reason Osama didn't go to Iran was it would have caused Iran to get invaded. The Iranians are currently supporting inserections all over the middle east, trying to force out Royal Families and Democratically Elected Leaders with Clerics. Why do you think the Suadi's want the US there? it is to keep the Iranians from Invading now that Iraq is weak.
Iran has a fairly large military force, they are well funded and well supplied.
-----------------POINT 3-------------------
The only reason we may not 'stomp Iran back into the stone age' is America has a conscience. Most Americans would not apporve of destroying a nation like Iran. I personally would protest any direct action unless Iran does a first strike. Many people believe that Iran can become a civilized nation again. When the Ali Khamenei finally dies the younger Clerics might move away from the hard line stances he had. Remember America and the Western World not pissed at them for Sharia law, They are upset at the disregard for other nations and the support of Terrorism, and the constant threats agaist nations like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Kuwait, Omen, Iraq, and any nation they deem to not be properly Islamic. Personally I hate Sharia law, and would love to see a global ban on it's use. but most of the nations I listed use Sharia law and they are all allies of the US and the Western World.
---------------------POINT 4---------------------
They comply with most international laws, with the exseption of how they occupy land that they won in war, which 50 years ago would be considered legally gained. But the UN has gone against what was considered legal and changed the rules in regard to Isreal. As for Nuclear they do submit to the inspections, this is because a part of the process is finding better ways to store and refine the materials needed to prevent ecological disaters. Granted the inspectors going to Isreal are usually American or British, frankly the Isrealis don't trust other nations to be honest and helpful, I wonder why?
----------------------POINT 5-----------------
Lets see, the effective current military budget is equal or larger that the combined military budgets of every nation on Earth. At least during the Cold war the Soviets had a near equal budget.

The next nearest military in numbers is China, which is less than 45% of the US budget. They do have more soldiers, but they have 1 aircraft carrier. less than 10 submarines, they have 30+year old fighter jets, and little or no means of shipping trops out of asia. But then again their military is designed to protect the goverment from the people. And is not used as the military arm of Nato and the UN, which the US military is.
As for the Hate, it's a case of hating the Big guy. Most people like to pick on the big guy. Also a lot of people here watch TV which is always biased in one way or another. I personally like to look things up, I also watch Mosaic on my computer to see both sides of the issues in the Middle East. What I can saftly say is they are all liars, if you want the truth read.
---------------POINT 6----------------
Yes, no, you are so full of propaganda my head hurts.
Iran had a 10+ year war with Iraq that killed Hundreds of thousands.
est 320,000 - 720,000 Iraqis, 150,000 - 375,000 Iranians killed in the war. At least 100,000 civilians died.
That was 22 years ago.
Every nation in the world that has gone to war in the last 50years has not cared about civilians, humanitiarian aid, civil rights, or what is right or wrong besides the US military and it's allies when doing a police Action. because lets be truthful here every war America has been in since the End of the spanish American War has been based on Police type actions. WW1 America was a dupty under the UK, WW2 America was the Sherrif in a white hat, every hostil action since it has been like the NYPD. Sure courroption happens but America only does what the UN approves.
--------------------POINT 7-------------
All three of those nations have fallowed international protical on gaining nuclear weapons, all three submit to inspections. All three are at least stable enough to not use them. Granted Pakistan swings a lot on the insanity spectrum at times, but they have been mature about nukes.
Hell several Islamic Nations have Nukes, and no one cares. Iran has been openly hostil to the growing global nation and that is the concern. Isreal which I know you hate is a full member of the global community, pakastan is trying very hard to be a member of the global community, india has been a hub of global commerce for the last 3000 years. And is fully accpting of globalization.
Because let's face facts this is actually about the roles each nation and people will have in the global civilazation. The US has become the law enforcement Arm, China is small goods. Suadi Arabia is the energy, Iran wants in but on thier terms, sadly they want to be the spiritial leaders, and that is not going to happen.
-------------------------POINT 8-------------------
Since America is the easiest nation to visit, move to and become a resident in
------------------------POINT 9-------------------
you listen to too much propoganda.
1. Isreal has the right to exsist and protect itself.
2. Isreal has never made the first move in any of the active agrression in the region.
3. Isreal won all that terrority fair and square, the UN has gone against the law requiring Isreal to give up terrority won legally.
4. No nation could with stand the US military if it invaded, not now. American military is off the scale powerful.
5. The US will not invade Iran the currant president is a Liberal, and would only do hostilies if Iran struck first.
6. Iran might be crazy but they are not stupid they will never strike first.
7. if Iran does strike first then I guess they where truly stupid.
8. Stop being a hater on Isreal and look again at what is going on in that region. try and be unbiased and look at the history. Because right now you are being lied to and have no clue as to what the truth is.
---------------------POINT 10----------------------
America punishes America, our media our population hates the idea of being the worlds police force, if America does wrong internationally Americans get upset.
Iraq had just as much money, they had almost ten years of preping an anti aircraft missile grid which was state of the art. In the frist night of the Iraq war the entire system was destroyed. By US special forces, and advanced weapon systems design specifically to destroy anti-aircarf weapon systems. In the game of war the US changed the rules, no matter what technology you have it has much better, and a counter to it all. The only thing that can stop the American military is American public opinion.
------------POINT11-----------
And this, stealth is amazing.

Ok i divided it a bit so to make it easy to comprehend.

POINT 1
I make it personal because i live in a country whose political system has been the favourite game of the USA intelligence in the years after the second world war.
Its hard for you to understand, as you are there sitting in Los Angeles and not in one of the country at the receiving part of the deal.

I had many Iranian friends, a group of architets and civil engineers. They, being educated, were extremely doubtious of the movement that started to spread in the early 00's end of 90's.
Some even went back to help.
As you can see, personal experiences count for nothing.
BUT i am skeptical when it comes down to insurrections, political movements spreading and whatnot. Due to the facts mentioned above at the beginning of point 1.
---POINT 2---
Have you anything to back this up? sources or anything? or just fake, wrongly translated interviews?
---Point 3---
A civil nation again?... yes its hard... especially when someone else's intelligence fucks it up big time. You talk about education... read some books man. Its not tin foil hat history... what happened in Iran in the years before and after ww2 is there for everyone to read.
---POINT 4---
And you accuse ME of propaganda?
First of all they don't comply with international laws on MANY subjects, ONE OF WHICH is the illegal settlements. There has been about 300 and more UN resolutions addressed to Israel since 1947.
please Enjoy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cerning_Israel
Yeah MAYBE 50 years ago it would be accepted but NOW it isnt. Its called "EVOLUTION". Without it we would be still there throwing spears.
------POINT 5------
Yes please... do so.
------Point 6-----
War that has been manipulated by the then ally Saddam cause of the Cold war thingie that was going on.
Funny cause you mentioned how Vietnam was bad cause of the cold war and you decided to ignore all that happened in Iran DUE to the cold war.
eeeer, no. Actually the war in Iraq wasn't resognised as legal by the UN. There was going to be a second vote and many would have veto'ed but... welll.. you didnt give them the chance. Please Read it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Resolution_144
Especially the part that goes:
"Nevertheless, this position taken by the Bush administration and its supporters, has been and still is being disputed by numerous legal experts. According to most members of the Security Council, it is up to the council itself, and not individual members, to determine how the body's resolutions are to be enforced."
----POINT 7----
eeer No they didn't. They dont allow inspections to be carried as YOU SAID IT YOURSELF so i dont understand what you mean there.
And give me some of what you're smoking, the delirium on the last bolded part is... whoa... top notch.
----Point 8----
I hope that doesnt come as nation bashing but WHAAAAA?!
----POINT 9---
uh god.
you listen to too much propoganda.
1. Isreal has the right to exsist and protect itself.
no one ever discussed that
2. Isreal has never made the first move in any of the active agrression in the region.
Like for example, rushing to build illegal settlements in the mass of land called E1 (of NO value to israel) that is CRITICAL for the future creation of a Palestinian state?
You dont think thats a "first move"? oh sorry first move is only when something goes "BANG"
3. Isreal won all that terrority fair and square, the UN has gone against the law requiring Isreal to give up terrority won legally.
Are you out of your mind? and YOU are telling US about propaganda and how to inform ourselves? Go read a book man, please
4. No nation could with stand the US military if it invaded, not now. American military is off the scale powerful.
not a problem with that, as i said myself. i dont doubt the strenght of the USA army.
5. The US will not invade Iran the currant president is a Liberal, and would only do hostilies if Iran struck first.
Struck first who? The USA or Israel? You invaded countries for much less man.
6. Iran might be crazy but they are not stupid they will never strike first.
Absolutely so. Only reinforce their right to RESEARCH on nuclear power
7. if Iran does strike first then I guess they where truly stupid.
I am pretty sure there will be a missile launched from some "militia connected to the government" sooner then later.
8. Stop being a hater on Isreal and look again at what is going on in that region. try and be unbiased and look at the history. Because right now you are being lied to and have no clue as to what the truth is.
with everything you said up above, all the lies, the unconfirmed hearsays, the unchecked appalling mistakes (and i dont mean grammatically), you have no right to say that to anyone.
-----POINT 10-----
But thats exactly what i was saying. Read my previous posts please.
-----POINT 11-----
Knocking down a plane that costs as much as your healthcare bill isnt as amazing. 1.1 BILLION per plane in 1997
If they accidentally do youre in serious trouble. It means you have to invade a country thats not being flattened by airstrikes before.
And read up about B-2. There is a flaw or two about it being unscannable by radars.
It might work in Lybia, Iraq, or Afghanistan... but Iran?... mmmh i wouldnt risk it...


Sorry to everyone for the lenghty post i couldnt help it i hope you guys understand

[Deleted]

Lol, I would be ashamed to brag about shooting down a piece of cheap unmanned hardware designed for recon.

[Deleted]

I cannot bring myself to read that wall of text... I've tried but failed half way through. >.>

please do. its funny

[Collegeguy]

please do. its funny

The only way to defeat one wall of text is with another wall of text.

[Deleted]

Sure, but if the US is Rome, we still have many centuries to go before we collapse.

unfortunately, you are not building a balanced "empire" as the roman did.
Pax impera.
Everyone was happy in the roman empire... well most of them And being conquered by them meant a skyrocketing improvements in many aspects of politics and social life.

Iraq was better under Saddam, that should say quite a lot

[Beavis]

The only way to defeat one wall of text is with another wall of text.

And here I thought the only way to win was not to play.

[Gothicshark]

i had to skip your synopis of WW2 but suffice to say none of the aid America gave back then was free. it wasnt done through the goodness of your hearts. kudos to the brave men and women who fought and died as part of that effort but lets not pretend americas involvement was selfless.



why should we stomp iran? what have they ever actually done to us? america is and has been for a long time the worlds biggest sponsor of terrorism. whether in central america or the gulf. as im sure youre well aware. remember that iran only has the clerics in charge after the CIA toppled the previously democratic and moderate governement and replaced it with the brutal shah as our puppet.


israel doesnt submit to nuclear inspections, theyve never even admitted to having nuclear capablility. they jailed the israeli scientist who broke the story to the west after kidnapping him in France.


a war that was funded by the west, where we encouraged our then ally, Saddam to attack Iran. Iraq was the agressor. yes iran suffered horrendous casualties thanks to us. if anyone has cause to hate us for that war, the iranians do. it was our proxy war after all.


no they havent. israel has never taken part in inspections or even acknowledged possessing nuclear weapons.


ridiculously simplistic argument. self appointed policeman of states they dont like but protector of rogue states they do like? where do you get off with this kind of logic. its laughable. china is producer of small goods?


all arguable and frankly not even worth debating if your view is this black and white. false flags, pushing people into a corner and then bombing them to smithereens doesnt match any of your points or your spelling.

how about we leave iran alone. if you want to police anyone police yourselves, or your ally israel. no one wants your "help". havent your done enough? 1.5 million dead iraqis from the last crusade, do you really want to see another one?

I want to apologize my last post was on the iPhone while waiting for the cab to take the cat to the Vet, so I hit submit before editing, as a person with dyslexia I usually do a full spell and grammar check before posting.

As for Isreal's nuclear capacity and inspections, they are classified for obvious reasons. This does not change the fact they are full members of the I.A.E.A and comply with the treaties. They are not required to publicly disclose state secrets. So they are inspected but they don't have a public policy of admitting to the weapons. As someone who worked in this industry I know for a fact they get inspected, and it is usually America and the UK who does it. As I said before the foreign inspections are a matter of safety, for the nation being inspected. Much like spell check for me, sometimes I will swap letters around and not notice them until someone else looks over my typing. http://www.iaea.org/About/Policy/Mem...tes/index.html

As far as going to war for free, or giving free assistance to a nation in need. No nation on Earth will do this, sorry to say the nature of governments and nations is selfish and greedy. Armand Hammer who saved the Soviet Union from the Nazi's, and who was a strong supporter of global communism. Was also an industrialist and a capitalist. Odds are you use at least one product made by his company, 'Arm & Hammer' look at the logo yes it is the communist logo, and it was also the founders name. So even by giving Aid to the Soviets, he was paid back by Stalin.

On to the big question, 'What has Iran Done that is so Wrong?' in short, they have funded several Anti-Sunni terrorist/political organizations in the Middle East since 1980, They stand ideologically opposed to the Power of Saudi Arabia. As I have mentioned several times the world does what the Saudi's want. And Iran stands against the concept of Muslim Royalty controlling the two Holiest Sites in Islam. They believe that Strict Shi'a Clerics should control these locations. The reason Iran hates Israel is they feel the Dome of the Rock has to be in Shi'a control. Trust me they really don't care about Palestinians, who are mostly Sunni.

The Iran-Iraq war, yes the US supported Saddam Hussein, although the actual money and supplies where funded by another Arab State, the reality is America only had to openly support Saddam Hussein during this time, he got his backing from the Oil distribution network. Where he messed up was he bit the hand that feed him. ie Kuwait. The reason the US didn't take him down in 1991 was both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia needed Saddam to stay and oppose Iran. As far as the CIAs involvement with Sayyed Ruhollah Mostafavi Musavi Khomeini and the Shah of Iran, you have to ask the most evil family in global politics WTF, George Bush sr. was the Director of the CIA back then. He is in my opinion the greatest villain in history. Do not think that America agrees with the policies of that man, or even his family. And most educated Americans (ie not the Republicans) do not want war, and would love to see GW Bush arrested for war crimes.

As for my 'simplistic view' it comes from my love of history and the ability to see what is going on. However I will not describe it I will link a video you should watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NPC47qMJVg

The final point you make is pure tin foil hat. many of the things you describe happened very rarely in the past, and they are even harder to pull off now. It is not a likely situation. Don't look for a conspiracy as a first thought.

As for leaving them alone, it's not going to happen because it is not America that is making the push. It is the momentum of the global civilization, it is the fear of the Saudi's that will lead to the eventual showdown. And sadly it will mean that the US will supply the man power. This is part of why I would love for Iran to make the Change internally prior to the showdown.

[Deleted]

The only way to defeat one wall of text is with another wall of text.

I couldnt let him do that and call it so.
If he wasnt lying so openly maybe...

[Rukentuts]

And being conquered by them meant a skyrocketing improvements in many aspects of politics and social life.

Why does Puerto Rico want statehood again?

[Phookah]

Sweden, but I am shit at languages so I am stuck to living in the Anglo countries, thats fine, I will get drunk with my new friends instead.

BAHAHAHAHA Sweden... That's a good one.

[Anjerith]

unfortunately, you are not building a balanced "empire" as the roman did.
Pax impera.
Everyone was happy in the roman empire... well most of them And being conquered by them meant a skyrocketing improvements in many aspects of politics and social life.

Iraq was better under Saddam, that should say quite a lot

Thats very funny, everyone being happy in the Roman empire. Very funny indeed.

[Beavis]

unfortunately, you are not building a balanced "empire" as the roman did.
Pax impera.
Everyone was happy in the roman empire... well most of them And being conquered by them meant a skyrocketing improvements in many aspects of politics and social life.

Iraq was better under Saddam, that should say quite a lot

*cough*Marshall Plan*cough*

[soulcrusher]

walls of text aside, theres two things you can do with resources. use them constructively or squander them. fighting unneccessary wars is a waste of resources that could be put to reducing your deficit, educating your population or enhancing your infrastructre or reducing your dependance on foreign fuel.

ignoring all of that, with 1.5 million dead iraqis, no WMDs and no links to Al Queada found, there would seem a lesson worth learning there.

[Deleted]

Thats very funny, everyone being happy in the Roman empire. Very funny indeed.

Tell me when you're done watching "roman documentaries" on television and you start reading something about it.

[Rukentuts]

Tell me when you're done watching "roman documentaries" on television and you start reading something about it.

Have you ever heard the name Spartacus?