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  1. #341
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuvok View Post
    I left my liberal idealism behind a long time ago in favour of a realisation of pure truth. The truth is that the west is the most powerful civilisation on Earth by far. Our civilisation believes in and fights for human rights. Our civilisation believes in an accountable government that can be thrown out by the people without fear of being squashed by tanks or killed with mustard gas or ak47s or rockets. Where other countries have to engage in civil war to overthrow the current government, we simply hold a vote of no cofidence. Our women are equal to the men. We accept immigrants from all over the world seeking a chance at a fair life. Our laws are based on reason and our justice system is not contaminated by religious doctrine. Yet still there are people even in our own land that seem to think we are the villains just because we have the courage to stand up for what we believe in.

    Self-hating apologist westerners have no place in the world, because they are so caught up in their own self-righteousness and idealism that they fail to realise just how advanced we are as a society. This is not the year 1,000,000 AD, this is 2012 AD. Humanity is not a utopia yet and there are still irrational, terrible people out there. Get out of your dream world and realise that you cannot defeat the enemies or threats of the west armed with nothing but good intentions. The west is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it is the damn best chance this world has at achieving the goal of freedom and peace for everyone. Hating on the west is ultimately self-destructive. You must face reality. The middle-east simply cannot be trusted with nuclear weaponry. You think they have the right to develop it because we have nuclear weapons? Wrong. We have proved that we will not use nuclear weapons against our enemies. Do you honestly believe fanatically religiously motivated nations possess the same amount of restraint the west does? Even if they do, do you have faith in the security of said nations and the integrity of the leaders to not allow these horrendously destructive weapons to fall into the hands of people who place no value on the life of a human?

    What I have is not a god complex, it is a realism complex, something which dreamers like yourself lack. I am the real dreamer here, because I envision where humanity will be millions and billions of years from now. Our progress will be stunted by people who cannot recognise what our best chances are at this moment in time. I applaud your good intentions, but you need to be practical. The fact that little girls are being killed in afghanistan simply because they believe in education for women should tell you how backwards nations like these are. And clearly the decent, upstanding muslim citizens don't have the will to stand up against this tyranny otherwise they would do so, therefore we are left with no choice but to take a harsh stance against this archaic way of life and make it very clear that we will not allow such people to pose a threat to our citizens and the people across the world we desire to protect from them.

    Power is power, and we have it in spades. How lucky for the world that the west is the most powerful civilisation. South America seemingly revolves around the drug trade, Africa contains countless nations caught up in individual wars led by psycopathic warlords, the middle east oppresses its women and enslaves itself to a religion, China still to this day suppresses its own citizens and Russia locks up pop singers in a siberian prison. My point is you don't realise how fucking lucky you are to be a part of the west, and yes everything could be so much better but we are dealing with humans and not fairies so it is time to get fucking real about this situation before we get so entranced in our fantasies that we end up falling behind.

    The west in its current state is only a stepping stone. The future of humanity has much more in store for it than this. But the west is necessary for the progression of mankind, it is a means to an end and not an end in itself and that is what I believe. I am not a patriot of the west. I am someone who sees the world for what it is, and sees the west as this world's best hope at this moment in time. I challenge you to give me a better example of a civilisation that stands for human rights and progression, then you can tell me the west isn't worth protecting vigourously.
    Yay you get the award for the most self righteous post of the year. Congratulation on your bullshit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 11:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    I know you and I have differing opinions on some politics, but what you wrote there I could not say better. Granted for me Swap the words "Liberal Idealism" with "Religious Conservatism".

    All of these problems we are seeing in Africa and the middle/Near East have to due with the Would moving towards a type 1 civilization. A world with one uniform government, economy, and has the Ability to colonize the solar system. Some estimate we will get there in 100 years, I am hoping for sooner. Sadly nations like Iran need to be addressed by the Global community. I am hoping for a peaceful resolution, although looking at human history I am sure it will be a big war with nukes.
    I really like it when people accuse Iran of being bad for peace and ignore the fact that they have NEVER engaged in a war of aggression since its creation and will probably never do.

  2. #342
    Herald of the Titans Tuvok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You are living in well because your governments mass murdered/mass murdering brown/black people and used/using their natural as well as human resources. The very advancement of your "western civilization" is based on shit. You are sinked to shit up to your throat and now you are selling us fucking western moral and civilization?

    I agree with soulcrusher, you are an racist and you only see the realism from your point of view. Not because you don't want to. I totally believe you lack the perspective to understand realism. Read more, travel more and come back here.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 01:41 AM ----------



    West(USA) says hi about nukes.
    Oh please, don't try and attribute the success of the west to purely to the exploitation of other races. Look at you, you have no real argument against me, all you can do is call me a racist and tell me to travel more. Try providing a real argument and maybe I will take you seriously. If you remember, western civlisation abandoned any exploitation against races long ago. We do not currently wander the African wastes taking slaves and hoarding resources. On the contrary, immigrants arrive on our shores by the thousands every day and we accept them. The west is more tolerant than any other civilisation, do you deny this or do you want to keep living in the past and denying present reality?

    Let me tell you something, when you speak of our civilisation in inverted commas and say our success is based on shit, you are the racist. Of course, it is impossible to be racist against the west isn't it? Such hilarious double standards. The very idea of the west being a victim of prejudgement is ludicrous right? No, because your inability to provide anything but an insulting response with such presumptuousness self-assuredness is an example of what is wrong. You have no legitimate claim to speak about the west or me in such a way. What's more is, I don't care what you say about me, try contributing to the actual discussion instead of trying to discredit me.

    As for nukes that were used twice in WW2, if you don't see the irrelevance of that situation in regard to the current situation with the middle east you seriously need to stop using emotions to guide your arguments.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 11:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    Yay you get the award for the most self righteous post of the year. Congratulation on your bullshit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 11:47 PM ----------


    I really like it when people accuse Iran of being bad for peace and ignore the fact that they have NEVER engaged in a war of aggression since its creation and will probably never do.
    It appears that it is too much to ask these days for people to explain themselves. Apparently reasoning is not necessary to form an opinion anymore. I would be happy and most open to your objections if you were to actually spend the time and have the courtesy to explain them instead of flat out being insulting.

    What you need to realise is that I do not take my own thoughts for granted and that I am open to my mind being changed if a compelling argument is made. You won't get anywhere with a one line post branding me self-righteous, but if you were to actually explain yourself then I would listen to you and think about what you say carefully in the hopes of gaining greater insight. I only have the best interests of humanity over course of the future in mind, I don't care about winning arguments or being right. So please, provide some reasoning if you really believe I am wrong.
    Last edited by Tuvok; 2012-12-08 at 12:10 AM.
    "The truth, my goal."

  3. #343
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    I really like it when people accuse Iran of being bad for peace and ignore the fact that they have NEVER engaged in a war of aggression since its creation and will probably never do.

    I'll do this in bullet points.

    1. Regular executions of:
    -- Raped women
    -- people accused of being gay
    -- people who do not accept the shi'a version of Islam
    -- Political prisoners

    2. Sponsors the terrorists groups like Hezbollah.

    3. Iran has sponsored attacks in other Muslim countries such as Balochistan in Pakistan.

    4. The 1988 Iran massacre
    --They killed thousands of political prisoners
    --as many as 30,000 prisoners may have been executed

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuvok View Post
    Oh please, don't try and attribute the success of the west to purely to the exploitation of other races. Look at you, you have no real argument against me, all you can do is call me a racist and tell me to travel more. Try providing a real argument and maybe I will take you seriously. If you remember, western civlisation abandoned any exploitation against races long ago. We do not currently wander the African wastes taking slaves and hoarding resources. On the contrary, immigrants arrive on our shores by the thousands every day and we accept them. The west is more tolerant than any other civilisation, do you deny this or do you want to keep living in the past and denying present reality?

    Let me tell you something, when you speak of our civilisation in inverted commas and say our success is based on shit, you are the racist. Of course, it is impossible to be racist against the west isn't it? Such hilarious double standards. The very idea of the west being a victim of prejudgement is ludicrous right? No, because your inability to provide anything but an insulting response with such presumptuousness self-assuredness is an example of what is wrong. You have no legitimate claim to speak about the west or me in such a way. What's more is, I don't care what you say about me, try contributing to the actual discussion instead of trying to discredit me.

    As for nukes that were used twice in WW2, if you don't see the irrelevance of that situation in regard to the current situation with the middle east you seriously need to stop using emotions to guide your arguments.
    The first part of my post is a good, if not best, counter argument to your utopic western civilization. I suggest you to read it again. You are not better than east, north whatever morally or any term. I do accept that not every part of the world is as educated as west(still ignorant rate is beyond imagination in your societies) but that's the difference of opportunity not some sort of unique skill of west.


    If you can't understand the relevancy of nukes, try harder. You will get it, I hope.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-12-08 at 12:18 AM.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Oh no, they found another one of our toy airplanes that they'll have no idea how to use or reproduce...

    The Chinese should buy it so they can pretend they know what to do with it!
    good job thinking you know better than the rest of the world. Just because people study in your country does not make your countrymen superior.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    4. The 1988 Iran massacre
    --They killed thousands of political prisoners
    --as many as 30,000 prisoners may have been executed
    Don't dive into history, west is major champion when it comes to "frag"

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    The US has patrolled those waters (and the rest of the whole world) for years, in part, to keep shipping lanes open.
    yeah... right

    that is what they are for

  8. #348
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Don't dive into history, west is major champion when it comes to "frag"
    History? that was 24 years ago the people in power then are still in power. I was in high-school when it happened My then girlfriend had an uncle killed. So no it's not a dusty fact. I took it easy on Iran with my bullet points. Trust me unless you are Shi'a they want you to die.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    I really like it when people accuse Iran of being bad for peace and ignore the fact that they have NEVER engaged in a war of aggression since its creation and will probably never do.
    Greeks might disagree...guess it depends on where you draw the "creation line."

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Trust me unless you are Shi'a they want you to die.
    Hah! Ignorance at its purest form. Trust you? No fucking way.

    a tip: Stop believing every single bullcrap you watch on fox news.

  11. #351
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuvok
    weird random white supremacist psychobabble
    apart from spouting your off kilter mini mein kampf you dont actually make a relevant point to the debate though. no ones arguing western civilisation is a good thing. people have opportunity and generally a better quality of life than in a lot of places in the world. thats often because the west or its corporations has made their lives a living hell though.

    why does that make invading iraq and killing 1.5 million people a good thing? did that make our western life better? safer? did it reduce terrorism and make the world more stable? ofc it didnt. was it neccessary? I cant see what it achieved bar a massive rise in the price of oil. great for the saudis maybe, not so great for us. do we really want to repeat that in Iran? in what way is Iran a threat to us that you feel justified in killing a similar number of people there too? in an earlier post you said you didnt trust them. so what. we dont need to trust them. post invasion what happens? will our lives be better? I dont think so.

    you can take whatever view you want on other cultures and religions. I dont mind. i just dont see how cowboying in and killing a million people is a good thing. what exactly are you seeking to defend or accomplish? in what way do you think it will advance western culture. Libya cost the UK 6Billion or so. for what? what did the UK get from that. were closing schools and libraries as weve no money but we blow the crap out of Libya. why?

    as for me, id rather we invested in infrastructure and education. re built our manufacturing base and positioned ourselves for the real fight. the economic one against india and china. as we piss our money away on expensive boys toys theyre laughing all the way to the bank. by disagreeing with you, you seem to see me as some kind of lefty liberal. you couldnt be further from the truth. all im saying is use our money for our benefit rather than to the detriment of Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan or wherever else were busy blowing up.

  12. #352
    yeah, i'll believe they have our drone when i believe north korea has unicorns.

  13. #353
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    History? that was 24 years ago the people in power then are still in power. I was in high-school when it happened My then girlfriend had an uncle killed. So no it's not a dusty fact. I took it easy on Iran with my bullet points. Trust me unless you are Shi'a they want you to die.
    you know Iran has the CIA to thank for its present government right? after they overthrew the democratically elected govt and installed the brutal rule of the shah. prior to that iran was a fairly liberal western style democracy.

  14. #354
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    I'll do this in bullet points.

    1. Regular executions of:
    -- Raped women
    -- people accused of being gay
    -- people who do not accept the shi'a version of Islam
    -- Political prisoners

    2. Sponsors the terrorists groups like Hezbollah.

    3. Iran has sponsored attacks in other Muslim countries such as Balochistan in Pakistan.

    4. The 1988 Iran massacre
    --They killed thousands of political prisoners
    --as many as 30,000 prisoners may have been executed
    1. Ummm, these are not really wars? Additionally, I'd like some sources for the bold parts and since you're claiming that it is a regular thing then you would have to probably provide me with more than one accident.

    2. Hezbollah have never claimed attacks on non-military targets and I believe that any military target (both ways) is a fair game. So what?

    3. Source?

    4. Dictatorships tend to kill "opposing parties" in large numbers see Saudi Arabia, and the rest of gulf countries. I don't really see why your singling Iran out.

    Furthermore, similar acts to some (if not all) of these were done by what we call western and civilised nations.
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Greeks might disagree...guess it depends on where you draw the "creation line."
    I am speaking specifically about the republic of Iran the current government not some country thousands of years ago.

  15. #355
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Hah! Ignorance at its purest form. Trust you? No fucking way.

    a tip: Stop believing every single bullcrap you watch on fox news.
    Don't watch TV, can't stand Republicans. If you are going to insult someone make sure you have a clue who they are first.

  16. #356
    Herald of the Titans Tuvok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    apart from spouting your off kilter mini mein kampf you dont actually make a relevant point to the debate though. no ones arguing western civilisation is a good thing. people have opportunity and generally a better quality of life than in a lot of places in the world. thats often because the west or its corporations has made their lives a living hell though.

    why does that make invading iraq and killing 1.5 million people a good thing? did that make our western life better? safer? did it reduce terrorism and make the world more stable? ofc it didnt. was it neccessary? I cant see what it achieved bar a massive rise in the price of oil. great for the saudis maybe, not so great for us. do we really want to repeat that in Iran? in what way is Iran a threat to us that you feel justified in killing a similar number of people there too? in an earlier post you said you didnt trust them. so what. we dont need to trust them. post invasion what happens? will our lives be better? I dont think so.

    you can take whatever view you want on other cultures and religions. I dont mind. i just dont see how cowboying in and killing a million people is a good thing. what exactly are you seeking to defend or accomplish? in what way do you think it will advance western culture. Libya cost the UK 6Billion or so. for what? what did the UK get from that. were closing schools and libraries as weve no money but we blow the crap out of Libya. why?

    as for me, id rather we invested in infrastructure and education. re built our manufacturing base and positioned ourselves for the real fight. the economic one against india and china. as we piss our money away on expensive boys toys theyre laughing all the way to the bank. by disagreeing with you, you seem to see me as some kind of lefty liberal. you couldnt be further from the truth. all im saying is use our money for our benefit rather than to the detriment of Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan or wherever else were busy blowing up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuvok
    weird random white supremacist psychobabble
    Why the fuck do you continuously feel the need to label me as a nazi? Jesus Skurn, can you just put your personal distate for my current opinions aside? I have openly admitted the west is not perfect, and of course we have made mistakes and I accept Iran may be one of them, that is not the point I am making and I never said the invasion of Iran in particular was a good decision.

    Nobody is actually arguing with me, since I started posting nobody has said anything in response to me except insulting comments and comparisons to Hitler, it's absolutely ridiculous, yet you're still claiming moral highground. Stop with the sensationalist bullshit already.

    What I am saying is that at this moment in humanity's history, the west is the most enlightened civilisation as a whole. We are not offended by the thought of homosexuals marrying (and for good reason), we use logic and reason and require evidence before we convict someone of a crime, we do not oppress our women, and our morals are based on logical reasoning. I would welcome any legitimate contradiction to that claim, but I doubt there exists any. For these reasons, western values are the single most advanced system of values that exist today and provide future humans with the best chance of achieving a peaceful, sensible existence if they are followed and protected. Due to what is it at stake (the future of humanity) I believe we have to see beyond the present day and our own individual lives and accept that fact, and be prepared to take the necessary steps to ensure the west's protection.

    Of course fuck ups are made along the way, and I have specified on numerous occasions I do not harbour a romantic love for the west, I simply see it is our best chance and I would hate to see it endangered by people who cannot realise that and are too caught up in idealism to wake up to reality and the real threats to protect it. Yes I was a tad dramatic in how I went about saying it and somewhat self-indulgent, but for god's sake it really does not warrant these ridiculous accusations that have been thrown at me. If you were to consider my point of view calmly I think you would come to appreciate its merits, and if you are willnig to provide thought out counter arguments that do not contain comparisons of me to Hitler in it I would be very happy to read and carefully consider what you have to say.
    Last edited by Tuvok; 2012-12-08 at 12:52 AM.
    "The truth, my goal."

  17. #357
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    There you go again tuvok. How does any of what you've said justify your earlier statement of western supremacy and our need to kill Iranians. No ones arguing with you because you dont really make a serious argument for anything.

    Why based on what you've said do you feel we were justified in killing 1.5 million Iraqis and based on that why do you think we should do the same in Iran.

    It costs more to go blow things up than it would to try and rebuild the uk. Roads, rail, education. Or we could go kill a million Iranians who aren't any threat to us whatsoever.

  18. #358

    Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here’

    Petagon got fat budget. Americans harvest hatred.

    Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here’


    By Global Research News

    Global Research, December 01, 2012

    I sat in on a lecture, given in English, to maybe fifty or more young men and women at a college in Ramadi.

    Then a young man in the front row only a couple of feet from me said in a quiet voice “We have nothing to say. The last years have been only sad ones.” Again there was silence.

    Sami, my host from Najaf and part of the Muslim Peacemaker Team, stood and shared. He told the story of how, after the U.S. bombing assaults on Fallujah, he and others came from the Shia cities of Najaf and Karbala, to carry out a symbolic act of cleaning up rubble and trash in the streets of Fallujah. This gesture, he said, melted hearts and healed some of the brokenness between Sunni and Shia. He
    spoke of the delegation of peacemakers from the United States who were just in Najaf for twelve days, of the work to build bridges and seek reconciliation.

    An impassioned young woman from the middle of the lecture hall spoke up. It was obviously not easy for her. “It is not,” she said, “about lack of water and electricity [something I had mentioned]. You have destroyed everything. You have destroyed our country. You have destroyed what is inside of us! You have destroyed our ancient civilization. You have taken our smiles from us. You have
    taken our dreams!”

    Someone asked, “Why did you this? What did we do to you that you would do this to us?”

    “Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here,” said another. “They destroyed the childhood. You don’t destroy everything and then say ‘We’re sorry.’ “You don’t commit crimes and then say ‘Sorry.’”

    “To bomb us and then send teams to do investigations on the effects of the bombs…No, it will not be forgotten. It is not written on our hearts, it is carved in our hearts.”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/iraqis-...have-done-here

  19. #359
    Herald of the Titans Tuvok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    There you go again tuvok. How does any of what you've said justify your earlier statement of western supremacy and our need to kill Iranians. No ones arguing with you because you dont really make a serious argument for anything.

    Why based on what you've said do you feel we were justified in killing 1.5 million Iraqis and based on that why do you think we should do the same in Iran.

    It costs more to go blow things up than it would to try and rebuild the uk. Roads, rail, education. Or we could go kill a million Iranians who aren't any threat to us whatsoever.
    Soulcrusher, throughout this whole discussion I had completely forgotten the thread was originally about Iran. Nothing I have said has been based on anything to do with Iran, I suppose I should've made that clearer. But please desist with this misrepresentation of my position. I am not a white supremecist, as that mindset is irrational. I also have no interest in killing Iranians.

    I shouldn't humour your question with an answer since you are still being quite insulting but I will bite the bullet. To tell you the truth, I don't know if invading Iraq was right. I cannot say one way or ther other what is right in that situation because I do not have the necessary knowledge to make a proper judgement. In the case of Iran, their lack of cooperation with UN inspectors causes a lot of doubt as to their intentions with nuclear technology, and the risks involved are such that billions of people are the stakes. My argument with regard to Iran is that because the power of nuclear weaponry is so dangerous, that the mere fact that it would be possible for irresponsible groups to get their hands on them is cause enough above all else to make sure it doesn't happen. The fact that the USA or the UK or whoever already has nuclear weaponry does not justify the creation of more in countries where the use of such weapons is far more likely due to its instability. I believe it is a risk we simply cannot take. That is my primary line of reasoning and Iran is the focus of my argument, not Iraq.
    "The truth, my goal."

  20. #360
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    1. Ummm, these are not really wars? Additionally, I'd like some sources for the bold parts and since you're claiming that it is a regular thing then you would have to probably provide me with more than one accident.

    2. Hezbollah have never claimed attacks on non-military targets and I believe that any military target (both ways) is a fair game. So what?

    3. Source?

    4. Dictatorships tend to kill "opposing parties" in large numbers see Saudi Arabia, and the rest of gulf countries. I don't really see why your singling Iran out.

    Furthermore, similar acts to some (if not all) of these were done by what we call western and civilised nations.

    I am speaking specifically about the republic of Iran the current government not some country thousands of years ago.


    If you are that clueless I feel sorry for you. Either that or you are a paid blogger for a terrorist cell. Because I find it hard for someone to not be aware of the last 30 years of Iranian history.

    But if you are just clueless go find an Iranian and ask them.

    here is a good group they will list out the long list of murder women.

    http://www.iranpoliticalprisoners.org/index.html

    Now as far as Saudi Arabia you are just kicking back my word at me, I'm the one who accuses the Saudi's of stirring up most of this crap, and using the US Military as it's private body guard.

    As for what the CIA did that was GHW Bush who set it up as Director of the CIA. Who's his best friend? the Saudi's. I wonder why the Saudi's wanted the Shah gone? Do not think for a moment that anything happens in the Middle East that is not approved by the Saudi's, Israel's very existence has helped the Saudi's get away with so much it's ridiculous. So when you ask your self why does America unconditionally back Israel ask your self why would the Saudi's want America to Back Israel.

    You want to spew forth innocent Iran, which is in the top 4 worst totalitarian nations on earth.
    I was pissed off that Libya got sacked. Sure in the 80's they sponsored Terrorism and it bit them in the ass hard core, Gaddafi was actually good for his people, but he controlled oil which wasn't owned by the Saudi's. Syria is falling hard and fast, the US is doing almost nothing While Israel is Screaming at the world to do something. Wonder why America isn't doing anything?

    You have a very narrow world view when you think all your troubles are made in America.

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