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  1. #21
    Keyboard Turner
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    "By looking at actual stats, actual progression, time spent playing, where, and to what extent, ... so yes, we absolutely are able to tell without a doubt that the plan we're enacting is actually what players playing the game want and need, and are not just listening to people on the forums."

    Stats can be interpreted in about as many was as ghostcrawler attempts to justify his moronic ideas, not to mention you skew the stats by being in control of the data and molding it to your likeing. In reality when you say the above statement it has no worth or meaning, just pay attention to the stats that matter most to you, PROFIT cause its short lived, you slowly will break the community and continue to destroy the brand name. I wont buy Call of duty because Blizzard bought Infinity ward, your mouth and actions and stupidity costs your company more money then it gains. Everyone is just waiting and desires for someone to come along and make a game that actually pushes content out that the community desires. Anyone else Bored of beta testing since vanilla wow, "hotfix" HAHAHAH sometimes i wonder if some of the shit you put into this game was found in your trash bin with the emails of people messaging you telling you that your existence in blizzard hurts the game.

    Being that i've seen this game from the start id say your "evolution" of concepts and ideas are as delusional as the Tea party/Evangelicals.... If this post is to hard... to bad it's time for someone to tell you how it is and not bullshit.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    I don't understand this. Explain thsi, please? What greed? A non raider, a pvper, a raider, an altoholic, they all pay 15 dollars a month. Making raids more accessible doesn't make anyone pay more. So now you say giving people additional goals to strife for makes them cancel subs? Amazing what convoluted arguments you cook up to explain your dislike for some design decisions.
    A casual will join the game level a few chars do something in game, get turned off by the hard raids and maybe quit. This is a risk for their investment so they need to make sure EVERY SINGLE form of content they make is done by most people.

    This is why we got achievements. They are goals in game to show us what content to do.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodes View Post
    If this post is to hard... to bad it's time for someone to tell you how it is and not bullshit.
    That post was hard to read, but not for the reasons you were hoping.

  4. #24
    I have always enjoyed raiding. In Vanilla I was a super slow leveler, but I did complete ZG and did part of MC with a guild. In TBC I was a bit more active, and did weekly runs of Tier 4 content, (as my guild progressed through it), and some Tier 5 and 6 bosses on ocassion. There were some breaks and alts during that time. In WotLK, I did a little of everything. Don't remember finishing complete raids, but that might be memory failing. I had fun nonetheless. In Cata, same thing. I did what I could, when I could. In Cata I had no guild though. I was in my own guild by myself. So LFR was a huge boon to me. Some people hate LFR, but it was a great thing for me. No guild, All my friends had quit, but it gave me the chance to raid. Now in MoP, I can do 3 raids in LFR! I have 1 friend who plays WoW again, and we do LFR raids every week. Sure it might be a watered-down version that is "sooooo easy" but I don't care. It's fun. I get some gear, and VP, and hang out with a friend. I'd love to step up to doing normal raids, maybe get into a guild run as a pugger, but I haven't worried too much about it. And like the OP, I'm loving seeing the amount of raiders now.

    Also, keep in mind, people are probably moving into raids to avoid dailies. The amount of VP you get drastically cuts down on dailies needed for the week.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    A casual will join the game level a few chars do something in game, get turned off by the hard raids and maybe quit. This is a risk for their investment so they need to make sure EVERY SINGLE form of content they make is done by most people.
    Which is totally condemnable, as we all know that the point of developing a game is to not make any money (losing money is a plus!) and to prevent people from playing the stuff you spent such a long time designing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayhos View Post
    every video game has gamey aspects to it

  6. #26
    Bloodsail Admiral Trigg's Avatar
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    In reply to the OP, there hasn't been a "sudden" boom in people wanting to raid. Vanilla was 7-8 years ago. That's a long time to allow people to start to understand how the game works raidwise. At the beginning, everyone was getting used to how the gam actually worked. It was pretty new stuff. They were content with the actual world, never mind the raids.

    As time went on, we got heroic dungeon content with tbc, a 10man raid for the less, as people knew them back then, "hardcore" who couldn't commit to or handle 25man raids, which imo wasn't really justified.

    Then in Wotlk, raids got split into 25man and 10man for every raid instance, giving everyone more of a chance at competing. Heroic raids were introduced to allow the casual/regular players to get right to the end and experience the whole raid without making the hardcore players feel cheated. And now, we get LFR so people can just go straight in without knowing anything and kill everything.

    It all happened over 7 years, not instantly. It's been hyped up and advertised to give people this information before they even play, or even if they didn't know when they started later on, the amount of acces and advertising for these systems actually in the game gave them prety easy access and a quick lesson on what raids were and why they were fun to do.

    Edit: Also as someone has pointed out above, acheievements were introduced as a sort of guide in a way to let people know, this is what you have to do to achieve this. It's a way of opening the game up to people who may be narrowsighted or just haven't been able to explore it all. Alot of these are raid achievements and were added in WotLK, around 3 or more years ago.
    Last edited by Trigg; 2012-12-04 at 01:58 PM.





  7. #27
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Back then the game was new and a lot of people felt that raiding was for the happy few. Over the years they got to know the game better and better and felt that it was something they would want to see too I guess. I started half a year before TBC. I had no idea what raiding really was until mid TBC and even then I thought it wa snot for me. Only after a good friend of mine introduced me to a guild I became involved otherwise it might have taken much longer.
    For a lot of people it seemed like it was something they could never attain and during TBC and even more so during Wrath people felt it was something they'd want to enjoy too.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Which is totally condemnable, as we all know that the point of developing a game is to not make any money (losing money is a plus!) and to prevent people from playing the stuff you spent such a long time designing.
    I never said they should lose money. I said dumbing down raiding for profit is bad and harmful.

    As a raider in a 3 nights a week guild i managed to 2 shot first 3 bosses in ToES and get elite kill on the first... Game should be harder at that level.

    Also: I expect Stacking ICC/DS style nerfs soon to herd people in raids... which is lame as fuck.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nnelson54 View Post
    That post was hard to read, but not for the reasons you were hoping.
    Was hoping for a better response then your one liner. Now your just padding your # of posts. Try and bring something to the conversation not some clever one liner that only makes sense to you. Read your above posts and I can only make out the shades of grey.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    There always was a demand to be able to experience content. Nobody was happy not having anything to do for over a year in Vanilla. I noticed that today's players tend to romanticize a false perception/memory of the Vanilla days - the golden era where casuals were content with the little they had and weren't so entitled, enjoyed the "journey", yaddayadda. You're fooling yourself. It never was that way. And people did whine about not having content and no ways of character progression, ALL the time.
    That part is plain wrong. There were hordes of casuals in vanilla and BC who were perfectly alright with only dabbling in raiding (if at all) and not seeing the top content while it was still valid.

    Blizzard launched a sort of a test balloon in BC by doing Karazhan as a 10man raid to see if more people would get into raiding if the whole thing was more accessible. There's a reason why Karazhan is still one of the most popular raids to this day.
    Not seeing a connection to what the OP claims.

    Yes, Karazhan being 10 man made it accessible for smaller guilds. At the same time - until it was tuned down eventually - the raid was more challenging on the individual level than any of the classic raids. Being a 10 man raid was definitely not the reason why it eventually became an option for everyone.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Voltage View Post
    I think WCM / Youtube had a part to play in this. Alot more people able to see videos of the raid bosses, etc, Whereas in Classic / TBC video footage was rare afaik.
    There was a decent amount of footage back in classic and plenty of it in TBC. The problem was that the barriers to entry were so high. If you wanted to raid in Classic at the point where BWL was current content, you needed to either find a BWL guild that would take you in for shits and giggles or join a guild working on ZG/MC.

    Same thing in BC. You needed to get geared up through earlier raids to get into the later raids. This was alleviated somewhat with Magister's Terrace and the sunwell badge gear, but up through T6 it was an issue.

    Wrath kind of got rid of the high barriers to entry.

  12. #32
    Well, with me. (I started in 2.0.5 or something, can't remember..) I wanted to get into raids, to get more gear, and see how my character would scale as a whole. But, who would take Restribution, when a rogue in ilvl 70 greens could beat out your 140ish ilvl ret geared paladin, lol.

    Still stuck it out. I wanted to raid as ret so badly. Then 3.0 happened. For me this game is all about the any lore pertaining to the Dwarf race. Or Paladin, Shaman and druid lore. And gear. I like feeling powerful in game. Gear puts you above the unnamed NPC. And is fun in my view.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodes View Post
    If this post is to hard... to bad it's time for someone to tell you how it is and not bullshit.
    They say they have stats to show what they're doing is right for the people playing, you say they're twisting the stats, which is pretty impressive considering you have no idea what they are....but you're sure they're not right yes?

    I hate to point it out but your post isn't "to hard", it's mainly bollocks, made up by someone who doesn't have the information and decides that whatever falls out their head first is the truth.
    "The fact that you don't get it or like it is fine. The fact that you wanna ruin it for everyone else - that's why you're a cocksucker." - Bill Hicks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The playerbase has been desiring this for years and when it's finally here, everyone wants to grab a pitchfork. Ridiculous. This community is disgustingly toxic.
    Please send all PM's with a read receipt, that way both you and I will know I'm not reading them....

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodes View Post
    Stats can be interpreted in about as many was as ghostcrawler attempts to justify his moronic ideas, not to mention you skew the stats by being in control of the data and molding it to your likeing.
    Except he has no reason to skew the stats. In the end what matters is sub numbers, he would want the most accurate data and interpretation of said data so he can do his job.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    You can be blamed - at least if you hate this decision, yet stay and play.
    Maybe others can be blamed if they stay and don't like it, but I myself haven't played since April '11 so no, I'm not to blame. People say "don't like it, don't play", I don't.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Fela View Post
    That part is plain wrong. There were hordes of casuals in vanilla and BC who were perfectly alright with only dabbling in raiding (if at all) and not seeing the top content while it was still valid.
    Oh, really? You oughta know.

    Yes, Karazhan being 10 man made it accessible for smaller guilds. At the same time - until it was tuned down eventually - the raid was more challenging on the individual level than any of the classic raids.
    So what?

    Being a 10 man raid was definitely not the reason why it eventually became an option for everyone.
    Of course it was. Why on earth would you ever deny that.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2012-12-04 at 04:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kayhos View Post
    every video game has gamey aspects to it

  17. #37
    imho - The more you give, the more people want. So the more access Blizz gave to raiding, the more people wanted to raid. Over time, this turned into an interpretation of entitlement.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    Now my main question is why the sudden "boom" in players everywhere demanding to see all the raid content at once.
    1) huge chunks of the story tied up in raid instances
    2) lack of anything meaningful, challenging and rewarding (in end game) outside of raiding.
    3) ego boosting and self-esteem of being a "successful raider" rather than some "nerd who RPs"

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    Now my main question is why the sudden "boom" in players everywhere demanding to see all the raid content at once.
    WoW is just slow on the uptake. EQ2 scaled raids to easy/normal/hard ratios while WotLK was still active.

    It was a request by the community...3 years ago.

    The reasons varied, but what folks wanted to do was see and experience raids often locked out before (especially with very gated attunements that the top raid guilds monopolied).

    The interest isn't "all of the sudden" its been there for years in many MMOs. Now that players got a taste of it, they want a piece of the pie.

    Evolution.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  20. #40
    It was LFR. Alot of people without access to raiding guilds had access to the raid finder and could see a sampling of the end game and some decided that this was something they enjoyed and they took the next step in joining a raid gear. When I joined my current guild they had never raided and were no where close to being ready to raid so I helped them properly spec build, reforg and gear up and I pushed them into LFR to see if it was something they would find that they actually liked to do. They enjoyed it a lot and when one of them mentioned that they were now a raiding group I corrected them that LFR is not raiding any more than buying my first ten speed doesn't make me lance armstrong. That gave them the drive to take the next step into raiding.

    If it wasn't for lfr a lot of people would not know that they liked raiding.

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