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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Before LFR, if you wanted to raid, you pretty much had to be in a raiding guild. And if you complained a lot on forums about the raids being hard, that could well have damaged your ability to get into a raiding guild. The presence of LFR removed that suppression of complaint.

    I suspect Blizzard didn't take into account this bias when it was using forums for feedback about what the player population wanted.
    I don't think LFR has been available for long enough to make that determination. LFR's life cycle started with an extremely easy, extremely quick reward raid cycle, which was a reaction to players feelings on the previous two tiers of content and subscription loss. The current LFR cycle is coupled to a much harder and much lengthier progression path, and we can observe how that has changed feedback, but we can't yet observe how blizzard will react to it, because the next raid tier will reflect their current mindset, just as the current raid tier reflects their mindset during 4.3.

    I just wish the swing from easy to hard, and from too rewarding to not rewarding enough was not so extreme, and there was evidence they were in fact zeroing in on a reasonable target.

  2. #62
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    There hasn't been a boom in the desire to raid. There has been a boom in people going into raids. There is a very important difference. A lot of the people you see in LFR are not there because they want to raid. They are there because they want gear from raids. There is a significant difference in motivation involved. You also see a difference in the forms of the forum arguments, as many of the arguments arguing about accessing raids or making various levels of raiding accessible to the average player are not tied to the idea of raiding at all. They are tied to the acquisition of gear. You rarely see arguments about raid access, what you see is arguments about how X level of raiding is too easy or difficult for Y level of player and awards gear that is too good or bad to be commensurate with the difficulty of said boss or raid.

    If you consider LFR raiding, then yes, the percentage of the gaming population that raids has increased. If you don't include LFR (and many people don't) then the actual raiding population likely hasn't changed or has shrunk. If someone could dig up solid numbers for the actual number of raiders that do normal or hard vs the population of raiders in Vanilla/TBC it would be an interesting comparison.

    Another interesting thing to look at would be how many people who do raid in whatever form would be willing to stop raiding or would flat out stop raiding if raids started only giving cosmetic rewards (titles/mounts/transmog gear). What if all raid gear was attainable outside of raiding? How many "raiders" would there still be?

    Finally, with regards to Karazahn - Karazahn being 10 man was actually a huge stressor for most raiding guilds as they'd already had to accomodate the fact that 40 man rosters would now be 25 man, but the first raid available was 10 man (which didn't accomodate a 25 man roster breakdown very well). Three 10 man raid teams didn't mesh well into one 25 man raid team and this caused a lot of guild drama and guild breakups in the early part of TBC. Was it a good raid - yes. It will be fondly remembered, but a great deal of that was due to atmosphere, memorable bosses and events (opera, chess, summoning Nightbane) and a unified vision and feel rather than the size of the raid. Early on in TBC Karazahn's size was a problem more than a benefit. And casuals didn't enter Karazahn early on because they couldn't beat anything other than Midnight and maybe Maiden.

    Addendum:

    One last thing to think about. The base idea behind raiding seems to have undergone a significant change over the last while. Raiding in Vanilla and TBC was based around the idea of repeated failure eventually leading to success. That idea changed with the introduction of toggled hardmodes in ToGC to one where in normal success was assured within a few attempts and for hardmodes success rarely involved more than a night of attempts (there are some noted exceptions). Then LFR was introduced and for LFR the idea was that success was basically assured and that wiping, even on first attempts, was the exception rather than the rule. These conflicting views on how success in raiding occurs is at the heart of a lot of arguments about raids and raid difficulty.

    Would any LFR "raider" have been able to commit to the idea of stonewalling on a boss for days to sometimes weeks as certain old gateway bosses caused guilds to do (Vael, Twin Emps, Vashj, Kael, etc)? How many of the current crop of normal mode raiders would have lasted through that? How many of the old crop of raiders have left the game due to that change in philosophy?

    What I'm saying is that the demand for raiding likely hasn't increased so much as the definition of raiding has changed so that more people see it as part of their playstyle, or as an easy enough path to reward that they're willing to do it despite it not being their preferred method of play due to greater rewards than their preferred style of play.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 02:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Before LFR, if you wanted to raid, you pretty much had to be in a raiding guild. And if you complained a lot on forums about the raids being hard, that could well have damaged your ability to get into a raiding guild. The presence of LFR removed that suppression of complaint.

    I suspect Blizzard didn't take into account this bias when it was using forums for feedback about what the player population wanted.
    Before LFR you didn't need a raiding guild to raid unless you wanted to do the very cutting edge of content. Pugs did MC, BWL and sometimes even AQ in Vanilla. In TBC pugs did Kara, Gruul, Mag, SSC, TK, and once keys were removed they went into Hyjal and BT. In Wrath everything got pugged on normal and depending on server you also had pugs do varying amounts of hardmode content.

    What LFR did was make the skill and effort to success ratio much lower. Before LFR a pug of average players in ICC would go at least 6 or 7 bosses, especially as the buff stacked. That same group of average players would clear a LFR version of ICC without breathing hard or paying attention. LFR didn't so much increase the access to raids as it did increase the success rate of bad raiders.

    I'm not saying that all LFR raiders are bad, but a vast majority of LFR raiders were not good enough to get into average raid guilds. LFR allowed these players to be successful at the expense of devaluing the raiding experience within LFR. Raiders used to be special because they succeeded where others could not, but LFR made it so everyone could be special. And to paraphrase the Incredibles "when everyone is special, no one is." And where no one and nothing is special, you end up with nothing to really strive for, no sense of accomplishment or pride, and no real value. This will have a long term negative effect on the game both in terms of community and fun. Yes, whomping through a dungeon without time or effort might be fun the first few times, but the excitement and energy rapidly drains. People constantly belittle nostalgia, but nostalgia comes from remembering a good feeling that an experience entailed while the bad feelings are allowed to fade. This current model doesn't lend itself to nostalgia not because there are less bad feelings, but because there are less memorable good moments. The lack of nostalgia inducing moments in the current game is a bad thing, because nostalgia leads to attachment, and without that attachment, the desire to sub and stay subbed diminishes.
    Last edited by Kissme; 2012-12-04 at 09:28 PM.

  3. #63
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    IMO the player base is like a group of children. There are the tough "elite" kids, the kids which are appreciative and the kids which are easily spoilt. You keep giving those easily spoilt kids what they want, they will only get worse.

    Just my opinion
    Well to be honest, I see the "tough elite kids" as the spoilt ones and unappreciative, saying "I don't care if he pays the same a mount as I do, I want more value for my money than him..."

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    I just wish the swing from easy to hard, and from too rewarding to not rewarding enough was not so extreme, and there was evidence they were in fact zeroing in on a reasonable target.
    Instead, the raiding design and reward mechanisms have become complex, even baroque. It's hard to see where any of it is going. Do the developers even know?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  5. #65
    Well, some of most complained about changes (valor gear, LFR, guild perks) have all been geared towards enabling a more raiding friendly game. The "boom" was intended by actions from Blizzard works quite well as a bottom line answer.
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    just get a mac. It's like sleeping with a fat chick to avoid STD's.

  6. #66
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Still means approxx 6-8 million do not raid.
    Raiding has always been a small percentage. The time involvement, rigidness and pettiness makes sure to keep people away.

    Raiding reminds me of this...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8JQI9IkY_E

    Complete with the brawl over loot or other guild drama.

    That isn't the norm. Most like to relax and enjoy a game, not bring rulers to measure epeens.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  7. #67
    Field Marshal leelad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    A casual will join the game level a few chars do something in game, get turned off by the hard raids and maybe quit. This is a risk for their investment so they need to make sure EVERY SINGLE form of content they make is done by most people.

    This is why we got achievements. They are goals in game to show us what content to do.

    That's not greed that's being sensible. Why make a game and cut people out of it? Why bother spending most of your development time making content that most people can't commit to seeing?

    If you've got something good show it off. Heroics are there if this concept upsets you.

    You do understand how businesses work do you not?

  8. #68
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Raiding has always been a small percentage. The time involvement, rigidness and pettiness makes sure to keep people away.

    Raiding reminds me of this...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8JQI9IkY_E

    Complete with the brawl over loot or other guild drama.

    That isn't the norm. Most like to relax and enjoy a game, not bring rulers to measure epeens.
    Sounds like you have a few sticks up your ass? Like with anything in this game it boils down to who you play with, I don't see any other aspect of this game being any different from what you're talking about. It just depends how much of a dick the rest of the guys you're playing with are. In fact I find doing dailies and random 5's and even LFR more infuriating as the people you meet there treat everyone as nobody and people they can exploit and not give a damn about, atleast in our raid group people tend to not treat eachother as shit...

    Personally, outside of raiding there's little to nothing -for me- to do in this game. That said I had no idea there even was a raid boom, if anything it's just LFR, and LFR is not raiding, it's just a way to get gear with little effort. I doubt you'd see people rush to LFR every week if there were no possible drop, and just a "See the content" parade.

    Also, for the few people brining up the monthly payment argument..really? Now that's entitlement for ya...

  9. #69
    It was caused by the playerbase maturing over the years, and the game being dumped down to a point where people weren't scared off.

    For most people inn wow it seems redicously silly just to post an apply I bet - Something I find essential if I wanted to raid.
    One reason for WoW decline I often hear is that its an old game and naturally people get bored with it. But TV is much older and people still watch that. Surely if a thing you once enjoyed keept staying fun, you would still use it?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    Hello MMO-Champion community;

    I have been playing WoW since 2 months after the release of vanilla, I have enjoyed my time from start to finish, and although had my moments where I felt disappointed in the quality of the patch or expansion, I still continued to play

    Now my main question is why the sudden "boom" in players everywhere demanding to see all the raid content at once. I am NOT COMPLAINING here, I am simply curious as to where all the sudden demands and complaints etc... came from. I do remember my times from vanilla, and I also remember how it was only a minority of the players who were able to experience raids, but I do also remember that at this time a large population of the game didn't seem to care that much, and were fine with themselves not being able to complete raids.

    Which surprises me because in recent times I am starting to see more and more posts with people demanding to be able to experience the raids and complete it at their own skill levels. Although I am perfectly fine with that (me being one of those people who use LFR on a weekly basis), am quite saddened by the fact that now PvE scales with player skill, and not the other way around, but I see Blizzards reasons and accept that.

    But what I don't understand is what caused this sudden uprising in the players demanding to experience the content. Because if my memory still holds, I remember in Vanilla (and I think TBC) there wasn't much demand for raids to scale down.

    I think that it's because of the increase in the player population or the increase in forums usage etc... But either way, when or what do you guys believe caused this sudden "boom"?
    I think the time around you changed and with it people changed also.
    There is no deep underlying reason for it at all; it is a natural thing what is going on and it will keep happening.

    Everything has to adapt to the present time, this goes for games also.

    You know, there was a time that people would step into a car and travel to anywhere, just talking to eachother.
    Now, people build dvd-players and screens in their cars, just to kill the time when traveling.
    Having the car windows go up and down, was a luxuary thing in the past... now people demand it even in the cheapest of cars.
    I remember I used to have a MAP-book in my car, for when i hot a city I didn't know the roads in. I used to stop and try to find my destination on the maps.
    Now, people will laugh at me if I did the same.... navigational systems are a must, in the car, on the mobile phone...

    it is just time passing by and bringing us more and more.
    Last edited by Synstir; 2012-12-06 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by leelad View Post
    You do understand how businesses work do you not?
    I do actually. Blizzard's business model doesn't work and the 40-50% off sales 2 months in a new expansion show it.

    Quote Originally Posted by leelad View Post
    If you've got something good show it off. Heroics are there if this concept upsets you.
    I am doing heroics actually. Close to downing Elegon hc and ToES first boss hc. What bother's me are the nerfs that will kick in soon to herd people in the already easy content. The fact that we have to do LFR, Normal and Heroic which is the same content over and over. The gating and dailies that make me sick to my stomach... the list goes on. Heroic raiding is the same crap over again not something special for raiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by leelad View Post
    That's not greed that's being sensible. Why make a game and cut people out of it? Why bother spending most of your development time making content that most people can't commit to seeing?
    Why shoe horn people in crappy content instead of letting people do what they want? I dont want a farm but i need it for motes on my main and herbs on my alt. I dont want to do dailies but they reward 496 ilvl gear that is essential for gearing for heroics.

    Blizzard's greed is just going to cause them to choke to death in the long run.

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