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  1. #1
    High Overlord jadedot's Avatar
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    Seeking Analysis of our Resto Druid

    I'm a raid leader of a 25 man guild on Skywall. Currently our healing makeup includes a mw monk, hpally, resto shaman, hpriest, and a resto druid. The druid is consistently lagging behind the rest of the group, and we're trying to figure out what's going on with him. He has told me that he's been trying different rotations, but that he's ending up without mana and way behind the group. Looking for some analysis of his character and performance to see what's going on so that we can boost him up to the rest of the healers.

    Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9113&e=9589 (Tsulong kill)
    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...schen/advanced

    Thanks in advance guys.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Soraka's Avatar
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    For starters, his lifebloom healing looks way way to low, esp on your Lei Shi kill. He needs to keep 3 stack lifebloom on the tank 100% of the time and not let it fall off. He must get rid of Glyph of Blooming. This is a pvp glyph and wrecks his healing with lifebloom pve. Taking wild growth glyph instead will up his wild growth heals a little esp in 25 man. Be sure during tree of life he's blanketing the raid with lifebloom and using WG on CD, spending clearcasts on regrowth and poping it slightly before heavy raid dmg. This could be another reason lifebloom healing is so low (improper tree of life rotation). He has slightly more spirit that he may need. Most people say around 8-9k where as he's at 10k. He may benefit from moving out of pure spirit gems and into mixed int/spirit gems in blue, int/mastery in yellow and pure int gems in red sockets. Int crit meta wouldn't hurt either. Perhaps most important of all, his haste is at 2871. He has to reforge to hit 3043. This is a huge breakpoint that gets more ticks from rejuv and tranquility. His swiftmend count looks low as well, all I can say is to focus on using it on CD more, it's super cheap. Worst case, use it on a tank or melee just for efflorescence during raid dmg but try to get lots of use out of the direct heal as well. It's hard to tell someone when to use swiftmend correctly, just tell him to focus on thinking about when the right time to use it would be. Jade spirit enchant would help. So would any professions in the game other than herb and mining.

  3. #3
    Well hello fellow Skywaller! Even though I'm horde side. ;D The first thing I notice off the bat is his lifebloom amounts. Way too low, and it's because he seems to be using the blooming glyph which is useless for us unless we're pvp'ing. The only really beneficial ones he should switch it with would be healing touch to take a second off his swiftmend since it seems he uses it frequently enough to benefit, or, wild growth since it would provide more bang for the buck being a 25 man raiding guild. Trees fall behind a bit as it is when they are in 25 mans however, so the extra wild growth would probably be more helpful. Swiftmend should be used almost on cd regardless, even if the aoe after isn't used to full extent. It's our most mana efficient medium sized heal. He's also got a ridiculous amount of spirit from the looks of it, he could easilly reforge into some secondary stats for more healing output. He only needs enough to get through the fight, not be full up in the end. (Only assuming that because 9k regen is enough for me.) Heal smarter not harder. ;D And lastly, though i'm not certain since I can't get a difinitive answer from this work computer, he looks to be way under the druid haste breakpoints. For the gear he's in he should be shooting for 5730 haste if he uses Soul of the Forest, or 4703 for incarnation.

  4. #4
    High Overlord Soraka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasta View Post
    For the gear he's in he should be shooting for 5730 haste if he uses Soul of the Forest, or 4703 for incarnation.
    3043 haste is better for non Soul of the Forest specs. The 4703 breakpoint is for lifebloom which we never let fall off anyways so the extra tick at the end isn't really important. 3043 gets him +1 tick off Rejuvenation and +1 tick off Tranquility. The rest of his itemization budget is prob better off in mastery. I'd also disagree about glyph of healing touch. We really shouldn't cast healing touch with how strong regrowth is glpyhed. It heals for more in any situation other than a healing touch crit and with 21k spellpower+ it has higher HPM too. It's also always putting living seed on the target. Interesting discussion here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Healing-Touch
    Last edited by Soraka; 2012-12-04 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #5
    I guess that's where him and I differ then. I use soul of the forest because of the better output at the cost of mana efficiency. The way regrowth and Healing touch scale with our spell power, Healing touch ends up being the winner in terms of mana usage and heals, even if it doesn't crit. A regrowth with living seed is essentially one healing touch. So why not try for healing touch that hopefully crits for living seed, and then takes a second off of swiftmend as well? As for the 4703 though, I feel like an extra tick of lifebloom is more beneficial than reforging to spirit, crit, or mastery since it's going to be up 100% of the time. It's the only hot we have that ticks every second instead of every 3.
    Last edited by Lunasta; 2012-12-04 at 04:31 PM.

  6. #6
    High Overlord jadedot's Avatar
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    Hi guys, thanks for the initial feedback. I'm going to talk to him, and link him this thread so he can read your responses.

    @Lunasta hello fellow Skywaller! Nice to see someone from Skywall here, since there's not really too many of us

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by plumwd View Post
    Hi guys, thanks for the initial feedback. I'm going to talk to him, and link him this thread so he can read your responses.

    @Lunasta hello fellow Skywaller! Nice to see someone from Skywall here, since there's not really too many of us
    Agreed, I jumped on it when I saw you were from Skywall best of luck to you guys! Though hopefully we can catch up in wow progress ;D comptetion is always fun hahaha. Hopefully he finds what we mentioned useful though.

  8. #8
    High Overlord Soraka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasta View Post
    The way regrowth and Healing touch scale with our spell power, Healing touch ends up being the winner in terms of mana usage and heals, even if it doesn't crit.
    Healing Touch is 20130 + (Spellpower*1.86)
    Regrowth is 10383.5 + (Spellpower*0.958)

    Regrowth always crits so 2x

    (10383.5 + (Spellpower*0.958)) * 2 is always for any spellpower greater than 20130 + (Spellpower*1.86) because the spellpower coefficient is 1.916 vs 1.86. So for any given spellpower regrowth will heal for more.

    As for mana,
    Regrowth = 29.7% of base mana,
    Healing Touch = 28.9% of base mana

    which makes regrowth cost 8.5833% more mana. So the question is when does regrowth do more HPM; it's when it does 8.5833% more healing which with its greater spellpower scaling ends up to be 19478.893 spellpower for average case. So as long as you're in 463s regrowth is doing more healing per mana as well as more healing per cast. All this is not including the living seed aspect.

  9. #9
    High Overlord jadedot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasta View Post
    Agreed, I jumped on it when I saw you were from Skywall best of luck to you guys! Though hopefully we can catch up in wow progress ;D comptetion is always fun hahaha. Hopefully he finds what we mentioned useful though.
    Same to you! It's been a slow and steady climb for us. We were a 10 man guild, but then were running 2 10s, so we decided to do 25 for efficiency reasons. It's set us back a bit in progression, but we'll catch up, I have no doubt.

  10. #10
    1. Resto 2 set helps with rejuv blanketing
    2. Haste breakpoint of 3043 is a must to have. After that, reforge excess stats to mastery.
    3. As mentioned, Glyph of Blooming is bad for PvE. I could see an argument being made for day phase Tsulong but it's better to be able to switch to a 3 stack on Tsulong when you transition.
    4. His Tsulong healing is a bit low. He should have ToL for every day phase (use tranq at night). To prep for first breath, make sure at least a 3 stack of lifebloom and rejuv are rolling on Tsulong, then about 3 seconds before breath finishes cast, pop ToL, hard cast a Healing Touch (should finish cast after the breath), Swiftmend, instant regrowth, Rejuv. He should be able to do all of this before the 500% healing buff falls. After the buff falls, focus on raid heals until Rejuv and/or Lifebloom fade from Tsulong, as the 500% enhanced ticks aren't worth reseting to normal ticks. For the rest of the breaths, again make sure a 3 stack of lifebloom and rejuv are rolling on Tsulong. This time though you are going to try and time a regrowth to finish casting within .1 seconds of the breath buff going off, then Swiftmend + Nature's Swiftness w/ Healing Touch, Rejuv, Regrowth until buff wears off. If you don't have NS+HT to use, just skip that step.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eielayia View Post
    Healing Touch is 20130 + (Spellpower*1.86)
    which makes regrowth cost 8.5833% more mana. So the question is when does regrowth do more HPM; it's when it does 8.5833% more healing which with its greater spellpower scaling ends up to be 19478.893 spellpower for average case. So as long as you're in 463s regrowth is doing more healing per mana as well as more healing per cast. All this is not including the living seed aspect.
    I'm so glad you're helping with the math here, thank you. I promise this isn't for arguings sake, only for the Druid this was meant for.

    So through min/maxing, regrowth maxes at 61,570 whereas healing touch would be 60,302. The difference being only 1,268 healing done. And as far as mana goes, regrowth only costs 480 more mana to cast. So unless you're confident healing touch will crit, the difference is very minimal. Bringing me back to the healing touch glyph, which I think is much more beneficial if you're not needing lots of quick regrowth heals that aren't with omen of clarity.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Eielayia View Post
    Healing Touch is 20130 + (Spellpower*1.86)
    Regrowth is 10383.5 + (Spellpower*0.958)

    Regrowth always crits so 2x

    (10383.5 + (Spellpower*0.958)) * 2 is always for any spellpower greater than 20130 + (Spellpower*1.86) because the spellpower coefficient is 1.916 vs 1.86. So for any given spellpower regrowth will heal for more.

    As for mana,
    Regrowth = 29.7% of base mana,
    Healing Touch = 28.9% of base mana

    which makes regrowth cost 8.5833% more mana. So the question is when does regrowth do more HPM; it's when it does 8.5833% more healing which with its greater spellpower scaling ends up to be 19478.893 spellpower for average case. So as long as you're in 463s regrowth is doing more healing per mana as well as more healing per cast. All this is not including the living seed aspect.
    I'm not a pro theorycrafter and haven't done the math. But it appears this analysis accounts for the regrowth crit, but does not account for the possibility of a healing touch crit. I dont think this would necessarily change your conclusions, just maybe the SP level at which the HPM favors Regrowth.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasta View Post
    I guess that's where him and I differ then. I use soul of the forest because of the better output at the cost of mana efficiency. The way regrowth and Healing touch scale with our spell power, Healing touch ends up being the winner in terms of mana usage and heals, even if it doesn't crit. A regrowth with living seed is essentially one healing touch. So why not try for healing touch that hopefully crits for living seed, and then takes a second off of swiftmend as well? As for the 4703 though, I feel like an extra tick of lifebloom is more beneficial than reforging to spirit, crit, or mastery since it's going to be up 100% of the time. It's the only hot we have that ticks every second instead of every 3.
    The problem with additional lifebloom ticks is that they are on the end of the spell, where they are usually wasted because of a refresh from a direct heal. The additional tick during incarnation is trivial compared to having an additional 1700 mastery the entire fight (~3% total healing increase). Assume 60k hps, that's 1.8k hps increase versus 2-3 times per fight having at most 18 lifeblooms (1.5 global, 18 sec duration LB, 30 sec duration incarnation) in a 10 man going off every cooldown. 1.8k hps on an 8 minute fight is 864,000 healing. 3 Incarnations with 18 additional LB ticks of about 6000 is only 324,000 healing. This is also the best case scenario for 4703 hasted incarnation, in that, you primarily cast lifebloom, only filling with other spells after all 10 people are lifebloomed, then recasting once they bloom until incarnation fades. In 25 man the situation improves slightly for the added tick, being able to cast 2 additional lifeblooms in 30 seconds for a total of 20 (x 1.5 global = 30 seconds, the duration of incarnation). In 25 man, this yields 360,000 healing done from the extra tick. If you put that extra haste into mastery you would get roughly 85,000 healing bonus during incarnation instead of the 324 or 360k, but the mastery would also help during the rest of the fight as well.

    Incarnation is superior to SoTF in every fight except extended aura damage fights such as WotE. Incarnation outputs more healing via being able to spam regrowth for free from many OOC procs, and it gives you powerful mobility since all of your healing during Incarnation should be instant casts.

  14. #14
    High Overlord Soraka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasta View Post
    I'm so glad you're helping with the math here, thank you. I promise this isn't for arguings sake, only for the Druid this was meant for.

    So through min/maxing, regrowth maxes at 61,570 whereas healing touch would be 60,302. The difference being only 1,268 healing done. And as far as mana goes, regrowth only costs 480 more mana to cast. So unless you're confident healing touch will crit, the difference is very minimal. Bringing me back to the healing touch glyph, which I think is much more beneficial if you're not needing lots of quick regrowth heals that aren't with omen of clarity.
    Yes it is rather close at this gear level between the two but keep in mind, as gear goes up and new tiers come up, regrowth will pull more and more ahead. That being said, even though RG and HT have similar healing per cast and mana costs, RG is a 1.5 sec cast vs the 2.5 sec cast of HT which could free you to do other things from more rejuvs, RG spam or even just plant mushrooms. As for the glyph of healing touch, I'd argue that the guaranteed living seed and guaranteed slightly larger heal outweigh one second on Nature's Swiftness. I believe glyph of healing touch isn't that good because healing touch really isn't worth casting but it's a pretty trivial argument because there isn't room for HT glyph in our major glyph budget.

    Glyph of regrowth is mandatory, it makes regrowth better than HT, esp important in ToL
    Glyph of lifeboom is mandatory for tank swaps and is a big buff to quality of life
    Glyph of wild growth is pretty much mandatory as it ups the healing done by WG assuming we hit 6 targets which is likely esp in 25 mans

    Each one of those glyphs is superior to glyph of healing touch even if you use HT as your filler and as I've argued earlier, I don't think we should use HT as filler.

    To druover about RG crit vs HT crit, regrowth glyphed has 100% chance to crit so you don't even consider a non-crit since it's impossible. HT crits are largely discounted for a couple reasons, 1. crit is our worst stat so crit chance generally not that high 2. the crit on HT is so large, in upwards of 500k, that it will be mostly overheal 3. If HT crit doesn't overheal, you probably should have cast RG anyways if the target is that low

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eielayia View Post
    To druover about RG crit vs HT crit, regrowth glyphed has 100% chance to crit so you don't even consider a non-crit since it's impossible. HT crits are largely discounted for a couple reasons, 1. crit is our worst stat so crit chance generally not that high 2. the crit on HT is so large, in upwards of 500k, that it will be mostly overheal 3. If HT crit doesn't overheal, you probably should have cast RG anyways if the target is that low
    I agree with what you are saying for the most part, and I understand your reasonings. But even if the crit from HT is overheal, you still get a huge living seed that will not be. And yes, crit is our worst stat, but its not negligible. Just base crit chance is enough that it should be included. My point is just that the SP multiplier numbers seem close enough, that it is important to include everything. If you are giving RG a 2x multiplier (as you should) because it auto crits, should healing touch get maybe a 1.15 or 1.2 multiplier (or if you want to assume its all overheal, maybe take this down to 1.05 to at least account for the crit living seed). Dont really know what I'm talking about, and not trying to say your conclusions are wrong by any means (i only use HT with NS...RG the rest of the time). Just wanted to point out that HT crit potential isn't negligible.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Eielayia View Post
    3043 haste is better for non Soul of the Forest specs. The 4703 breakpoint is for lifebloom which we never let fall off anyways so the extra tick at the end isn't really important. 3043 gets him +1 tick off Rejuvenation and +1 tick off Tranquility. The rest of his itemization budget is prob better off in mastery. I'd also disagree about glyph of healing touch. We really shouldn't cast healing touch with how strong regrowth is glpyhed. It heals for more in any situation other than a healing touch crit and with 21k spellpower+ it has higher HPM too. It's also always putting living seed on the target. Interesting discussion here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Healing-Touch
    The extra tick on LB on haste 4703 is barely any beneficial. You'll be better off with that extra 1.6k ish converted to Mastery.

    Unless your gear has way too much haste to reach 4703 haste w/o even reforging, by all means go ahead.

    Btw, Regrowth glyph is basically useless imo.

    Whether to cast HT or Regrowth, it's all situational. If people is getting low, cast a regrowth (or if they have reju, just SM) just to not let them die, cast HT if you have plenty to time to spare or you know when will the tank take a big hit and you time it right.

    Best glyph is still WG, Reju and LB (3stack switch).

    Resto druid is a HOTS class, direct heals is always bad and mana draining. Let the "Direct heal" class do their job and you do yours by not letting raid die too quick. If everyone is healing it "right", all healers should have ard 40-50% mana minimum when a boss is killed.

    *And btw, maths on which heals is more efficient doesn't help you to save your raid from dying, however, common sense to not let ppl die in the raid and knows how to conserve mana will help you to improve your healing.
    Last edited by Irzerg; 2012-12-04 at 11:50 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Irzerg View Post
    Best glyph is still WG, Reju and LB (3stack switch).
    Except the Rejuvenation glyph is garbage; Who actually wastes a GCD casting Nourish during a fight? Glyph of Wild Growth and Lifebloom are the only two "durr" glyphs to take, with the third being whatever your raid needs (Innervate for another healer while still getting a benefit, Rebirth for 100% versus 60% life, the Stampeding Roar glyph that increases range to 30/40 yards)

  18. #18
    High Overlord Soraka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Druover View Post
    I agree with what you are saying for the most part, and I understand your reasonings. But even if the crit from HT is overheal, you still get a huge living seed that will not be. And yes, crit is our worst stat, but its not negligible. Just base crit chance is enough that it should be included. My point is just that the SP multiplier numbers seem close enough, that it is important to include everything. If you are giving RG a 2x multiplier (as you should) because it auto crits, should healing touch get maybe a 1.15 or 1.2 multiplier (or if you want to assume its all overheal, maybe take this down to 1.05 to at least account for the crit living seed). Dont really know what I'm talking about, and not trying to say your conclusions are wrong by any means (i only use HT with NS...RG the rest of the time). Just wanted to point out that HT crit potential isn't negligible.
    Yeah, it's a good point. Living seed and HT crit are things to consider. HT crit living seed is quite large. It's important to keep in mind that living seed only procs off physical damage. On most fights (less so this tier though), the only physical damage going out is melee swings to the tank. Therefore most of the time living seed will be wasted on anyone other than the tank.
    The fact tanks take steady physical damage makes RG even more attractive to cast on the tank. That being said, the 30k living seeds that RG is making are largely overheal because boss melee swings are somewhat small and frequent. So if the tank is topped off, the HT crit living seed of 57k+ would also be overheal.

    Kind of sets up an interesting hierarchy for amount of healing done:

    Healing Touch < Regrowth < Regrowth on tank < Healing Touch Crit < Healing Touch Crit on tank

    Obviously this set up depends on your crit chance and your willingness to gamble vs trade in risk for a sure thing.
    As crit rating goes up, HT becomes somewhat more interesting.

    This tier druids raid buffed seem to run about 20% crit so that makes the set up:

    Healing Touch 80% < Regrowth 100% < Regrowth on tank 100% < Healing Touch Crit 20%< Healing Touch Crit on tank 20%

    Also, if you are doing heavy tank healing, HT and crit rating become more interesting but regrowth is so efficient on the tank.

    Regrowth seems to hit for about 100k so regrowth on the tank would be 130k assuming no overheal.
    Meanwhile healing touch hits for about 95k and on the tank hits for 95k
    With a HT crit it would be about 190k and on the tank about 247k
    Average case HT at 20% crit would be 114k on a non tank and 125k on the tank
    so reformatted average case

    -----------Regrowth------Healing Touch
    Non-Tank---100k----------114k
    Tank-------130k----------125k


    Interestingly, with crit average cased in, RG is better for tanks and HT is better for non tanks. It's still debatable the value of crit since, unlike DPS, average case has a rather high chance of overheal while, DPS have literally no risk of overkill to worry about. Also something to consider is that crit is less valuable for non tanks than tanks since non tanks have smaller health pools and drop from 100% less regularly and less quickly. In a normal boss encounter non tanks spend a lot less time below 50% health than tanks do and 50% is a smaller amount of health for non tanks vs tanks. The fact a HT crit is hitting for about 2/3s of a non tanks health pool means that there will often be quite a bit of overheal. The fact RG pulls ahead of HT for tanks average case speaks volumes about how good 100% chance living seed is. The faster cast on RG can also help prevent your heal from getting sniped too, esp with multiple healers focusing the tank. As a personal note, I really really like RG because I know exactly how much it's going to hit for. When I see someone in my raid frames below 100k, I can hit RG and know it's not going to overheal.

    NS+HT vs NS+RG is something to consider since NS removes cast time and mana cost. Obviously a NS+HT crit is going to be larger than NS+RG but RG has a higher spellpower coefficient so with the multiplier from NS, the difference between RG and HT will be even larger (assuming HT non crit). Something else to consider is that a NS+HT crit + living seed is often the same size as if not larger than the total health pool of a tank.

    Crit does make HT more attractive esp if you consider average case but I personally discount crit heavily as a healer, esp with big heals (as opposed to HoT tick crits) and as a healer I will always value reliability over crits which is why I've become such a big advocate of RG over HT.
    Last edited by Soraka; 2012-12-05 at 12:22 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Except the Rejuvenation glyph is garbage; Who actually wastes a GCD casting Nourish during a fight? Glyph of Wild Growth and Lifebloom are the only two "durr" glyphs to take, with the third being whatever your raid needs (Innervate for another healer while still getting a benefit, Rebirth for 100% versus 60% life, the Stampeding Roar glyph that increases range to 30/40 yards)

    By garbage you mean you don't use more than 3 reju in a raid, and having 50% faster casting time (nourish) to refresh LB (and mastery) on tank doesn't help you to gain more time on healing others...

    I see...i guess in a fight, i'll have more healing uptime than you because my Nourish cast time is near or equal to a normal GCD...so it makes me a bad healer by using Reju glyph rather than hoping people to die and then cast "1 time per fight glyph" rebirth...and so your arguement of "garbage glyph" seems "reasonable".

    You seem like a good healer, feed me more of your so called "garbage glyph". Thx
    Last edited by Irzerg; 2012-12-05 at 12:40 AM.

  20. #20
    If you have 3 rejuvs up all the time, you have ample sources to swiftmend every 12 or 15 seconds depending on set bonus, which will keep 100% mastery uptime. No need to use a mostly worthless nourish.

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