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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Voltage View Post
    Sigh, the one tier I decide to switch to elemental , enhancement is awesome.

    On topic : Shamanism buff does seem like the way to go, I don't want any retarded set bonus buffs or bandaid fixes
    I dot think shamanism will solve anything, if we lag like 5% behind the rest, shamanism would have to be buffed by huge number like 20% at the very least. And thats not going to happen, the entire reason why our spells hit for so low is because we have rng on top of rng stats in mastery and crit, where the variance per one spellcast is gigantic between no proc LB and double crit LB overload etc. Buffing spells might help in pve, but it wont happen because of pvp and QQers that were oneshotted by full proc burst from eleshaman once a month.

    IMO, the crit is just broken for our spec and needs to be looked at. .

  2. #162
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The Problem about buffing Shamanism in the past was, that it never solved this dmg problem completely.

    It went often like:
    Shamanism gets buffed Ele dps is good
    6 Weeks later everyone got new Gear, Ele is in the same spot as before the buff.
    It depends on the precise issue.

    Are we scaling poorly? Change scaling values, then; you need to have spells provide more bang per stat point.
    Are we just doing poor average damage at any gear level? Then you need to tune things like Shamanism for the flat increase.

    The issue in early Cata was that we had scaling issues, and they tuned us with Shamanism regardless, which resulted in the problem you mention. That doesn't seem to be the case now, though; we're not starting out really strong and then falling behind with gear, we're holding position. That suggests it's just straight overall performance that needs a boost.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It depends on the precise issue.

    Are we scaling poorly? Change scaling values, then; you need to have spells provide more bang per stat point.
    Are we just doing poor average damage at any gear level? Then you need to tune things like Shamanism for the flat increase.
    I'd say it's a of both.

    They overnerfed Lvb & Lb during Beta in my view.
    This 20% Nerf on Lvb was too hard, after that they nerfed Lb as well, maybe because it was critting higher than Lvb.

    In Cata we had Scaling issues, that's why they buffed Shamanism twice, with 4.2 and 4.3.

    In MoP there have been no major changes to Elemental in terms of scaling exept Elemental Fury (which brought crit in line with Haste / Mastery) and that FE Totem scales with Haste / Crit, as compensation for the removal of snapshoting.

    Now, in MoP i ask myself why we shouldn't run into the same issues again if there hasn't been any big changes to this Problem, i strongly doubt that Ascendance alone would prevent this from happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The issue in early Cata was that we had scaling issues, and they tuned us with Shamanism regardless, which resulted in the problem you mention. That doesn't seem to be the case now, though; we're not starting out really strong and then falling behind with gear, we're holding position. That suggests it's just straight overall performance that needs a boost.
    Then how much Shamanism needs to be buffed?

    Lb does about 20-25% of my dmg currently, if they buff Shamanism that Lb does roughly 10% more dmg, that will result in around 2.5% more total dps, not sure if this is enough.

    Secondly, i'm still thinking they don't want that Lb crits high than Lvb.

    this is just a pure speculation on my side from which i tried to interpret the Lb nerf during Beta, since it would make sense that a filler is not supposed to hit harder than your Spell which your rotation is centered around.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  4. #164
    make ascendance for ele a 1 min CD.

    problem solved

  5. #165
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'd say it's a of both.

    They overnerfed Lvb & Lb during Beta in my view.
    This 20% Nerf on Lvb was too hard, after that they nerfed Lb as well, maybe because it was critting higher than Lvb.
    The issue with LvB is that it doesn't "feel" hard enough from a "it hit and didn't Overload and then I had to wait 8 seconds to cast it again" perspective, but if you pop Ascendance and get lucky with Overloads (and Echos, if talented), it hits pretty damn hard. That's an issue for PvP where Ascendance is relatively easy to shut down and interrupts/silences can hose your ability to chain-cast, but buffing it for PvP makes it stupidly powerful in PvE, and lets you blow up 3+ people per Ascendance in random BGs against bads who don't shut you down. It's the same basic reason the glyph was removed, that let LvB auto-crit without Flame Shock, but dropped the damage by 5%; it made Shaman burst a bit too crazy in PvP while Ascendance was up.

    I've been saying LB needed a buff basically since the beta, though.

    Then how much Shamanism needs to be buffed?

    Lb does about 20-25% of my dmg currently, if they buff Shamanism that Lb does roughly 10% more dmg, that will result in around 2.5% more total dps, not sure if this is enough.

    Secondly, i'm still thinking they don't want that Lb crits high than Lvb.
    Going strictly off raidbots data, I'd want our DPS about 10% higher than it currently is. That would put is at roughly the #8-10 position overall. Anything more than that would be making us above average, and I'd rather everyone be brought closer to the average; you can't make everyone "above average", that just changes the average.

    If we went with just LB, at about 25% of our DPS, we'd need to increase it by about 40% or so.

    To give you an idea, going off simulationcraft BiS numbers for damage amounts, that would bring an LB crit to ~190k damage. An LvB crit in the same tests was averaging ~211k, so LvB would still be averaging about 10% higher on a crit, and is a guaranteed crit (as is the Overload and Echo off it), so it's still significantly higher DPCT than LB.

    I'd probably want to balance that out a bit more, with about a 3-5% bump to Elemental damage across the board, and the LB boost a more conservative 20% or so. A bigger risk to the rotation than LB overtaking Lava Burst is LB overtaking Fulmination; 40% would probably push LB past that point.

    Just to put some numbers out there.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Didrah View Post
    make ascendance for ele a 1 min CD.

    problem solved
    As awesome as that would be, i'm pretty sure it would make us OP
    Hatred the Fearless.

  7. #167
    As a "high end raider" I'd like to see some improvements to our sustained dmg and agree with Endus: Buff our LB dmg, its just too low.
    Take Sha of Fear hc: Unless you save Ascendance for the platforms you just don't have enough dmg to kill the add before another group gets ported. The only specc that's worse than Elemental is Shadow, because they can't move while casting.
    Our Burst, if used at the beginning of an ancounter is fine, Balance druid's and Arcance mage's burst is way better, but still, we are fine.
    Our problem is sustained dps. Buffing LB should not have a great impact on pvp.

    Elemental can perfrom quite well on some heroic encounters in HoF or ToES; but still, I see us being one of the first speccs being benched when other speccs are available.

  8. #168
    Tuning issues aside, simulationcraft shows some really low EP values for mastery, crit and haste for elemental currently. Low as in scaling issues low. Excellent Int/SP sure, but other stats (for me) are like 1.10 1.15 1.2 and that's looking like scale issues on top of everything else.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  9. #169
    for tsulong elemental is actually quite a good class to bring, because of our off healing, with the increased healing after a crit, combined with the healing buffs you receive, elementals can put in quite a fair amount of healing during the day phase. we have not attempted heroic tsulong yet, we are working on empress.

    but the highest healing surge i have done to tsulong was 1,300,000 with the breath buff

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Tuning issues aside, simulationcraft shows some really low EP values for mastery, crit and haste for elemental currently. Low as in scaling issues low. Excellent Int/SP sure, but other stats (for me) are like 1.10 1.15 1.2 and that's looking like scale issues on top of everything else.
    depends how good EP values are for other classes. obviously since ratings skyrocketed, one point of whatever secondary is obviously going to be pretty darn useless if we need like 600 for 1%.

  11. #171
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    why does it take MONTHS to adjust it? surely it could be done by tomorrow with a hotfix unless they actually plan to add something rotation changing in 5.2 which i doubt.
    because blizzard thinks ele's are fine dps wise

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The issue with LvB is that it doesn't "feel" hard enough from a "it hit and didn't Overload and then I had to wait 8 seconds to cast it again" perspective, but if you pop Ascendance and get lucky with Overloads (and Echos, if talented), it hits pretty damn hard.
    I'm not saying that Lvb feels weak, i *think* it would feel weird if your filler spell does more damage with a Crit than your actual "main" spell.

    Not even taking Overloads into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To give you an idea, going off simulationcraft BiS numbers for damage amounts, that would bring an LB crit to ~190k damage. An LvB crit in the same tests was averaging ~211k, so LvB would still be averaging about 10% higher on a crit, and is a guaranteed crit (as is the Overload and Echo off it), so it's still significantly higher DPCT than LB.
    This reasoning in my side is a pure speculation, it is not about number balancing as well, i am aware of the fact that Lvb will be very much superior to Lb but it is about the feeling if a Lb suddenly crits for the same amount as Lvb.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'd probably want to balance that out a bit more, with about a 3-5% bump to Elemental damage across the board, and the LB boost a more conservative 20% or so. A bigger risk to the rotation than LB overtaking Lava Burst is LB overtaking Fulmination; 40% would probably push LB past that point.
    Lb won't overtake Lvb anytime soon obviously, also i didn't want to say "if Lb crits for the same amount as Lvb, Lb is > Lvb".

    In my view they could buff Elemental this way:

    Buff Lb, obviously this Spell hits simply too weak, it would make Unleashed Fury a choice to consider as Elemental as well.

    Buff Lvb slightly, this spell now has a huge portion of our dmg, buffing it by ~5% would not have a major impact on PvP.

    Buff Unleashed Elements / Searing totem, i aware that i am saying this quite often, but i would like to see Unleashed Elements in our standard rotation, maybe as additional *only Elemental* effect that is increases the dmg done by fire totems (not Fire Elemental itself) by 200%, Magma & Searing hit fairly weak and are mainly placed because of their long duration.


    Blizzard should not Buff Fulmination, without the T14 4Pc the Dmg of Fulmination will dropping back ~6%, buffing it slightly will have only a small effect without T14 4Pc, buffing it too hard would create PvP issues because Fulmination Crits hits already pretty hard for an instant spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurean View Post
    As a "high end raider" I'd like to see some improvements to our sustained dmg and agree with Endus: Buff our LB dmg, its just too low.
    Take Sha of Fear hc: Unless you save Ascendance for the platforms you just don't have enough dmg to kill the add before another group gets ported. The only specc that's worse than Elemental is Shadow, because they can't move while casting.
    Our Burst, if used at the beginning of an ancounter is fine, Balance druid's and Arcance mage's burst is way better, but still, we are fine.
    Our problem is sustained dps. Buffing LB should not have a great impact on pvp.
    Everyone saves CD's if you don't have the 15% Haste Buffs for the Platforms in our Raid, we could do it without CD's or the Haste Buff but sometimes those adds get healed and it could become a problem.


    Also, P1 is totally uninteresting in terms of dmg, get in P2 once, get the Haste Buff and you'll be fine.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-12-21 at 03:32 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  13. #173
    i could agree with a LB buff

    but also honestly i would like to see our flame shock dot get buffed. it feels like a weak dot with all the high health pools we have.

    also considering it is the only DoT we have, it should do more damage than it does.

    also our base elemental and searing totem should get buffed, my fire ele hits for almost the same amount of dmg it did in cata, albeit now it is affected by my haste/crit, i still think he hits like a girl.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    depends how good EP values are for other classes. obviously since ratings skyrocketed, one point of whatever secondary is obviously going to be pretty darn useless if we need like 600 for 1%.
    Yah I totally am unaware of where they stand for other classes for most part.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  15. #175
    The only reason I can see for the lack of buffs/changes is that they are simply looking at at different set of metrics than us. Considering how easy it is to buff ele through shamanism that's the only thing that really makes sense. Well that...or gross incompetence. I really hope it's the former.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Didrah View Post
    make ascendance for ele a 1 min CD.

    problem solved
    always joke about a t15 set bonus with other eles, "whenever you crit with lava burst during ascendance you gain 1 second of time in ascendance" xD

  17. #177
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    always joke about a t15 set bonus with other eles, "whenever you crit with lava burst during ascendance you gain 1 second of time in ascendance" xD
    And I bet there would still be players who would stack crit

  18. #178
    "Pretty happy with PvE overall. Arcane will be fine without Scorch spam. Aff may be too high. UH, Sub, Ele, Arms may be low. " Gc on Twitter.

    Looks like GC changed his stance a bit.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  19. #179
    elemental mastery now on a 1 minute cooldown, interesting, also flame shock has been buffed in its duration and its damage

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by orderschvank View Post
    elemental mastery now on a 1 minute cooldown, interesting, also flame shock has been buffed in its duration and its damage
    Also the flame shock glyph heals you for 30% of the damage dealt.

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