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  1. #101
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbits View Post
    And it's trolling to say you believe elemental damage is fine right?

    Maybe it's related to our respective guilds, I've competed for the top 3 in my guild the whole expansion with the main competition mainly being a vastly superior geared warrior and a warlock. I just fail to see the problem.
    There is something like raidbots, who show all data from all parses, and that tells a different story. Your own experience is absolutely no indication for the state of elemental. If anything you play together with players who don't perform dps wise how they should. I can give you plenty of logs where I rank top 10/20/30 on worldoflogs and still only am number 3 or 4 in my 10m raid (that's no proof either, but it just kills your argument).

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbits View Post
    And it's trolling to say you believe elemental damage is fine right?

    Maybe it's related to our respective guilds, I've competed for the top 3 in my guild the whole expansion with the main competition mainly being a vastly superior geared warrior and a warlock. I just fail to see the problem.
    It's not trolling to say elemental damage is fine if that's what you truly believe to be the case; but it does make you seem somewhat ignorant or narrowsighted. Unless you know things the rest of us don't, there is just no way you're outdpsing equally geared/skilled mages/warlocks/warriors - there is just way too much data to suggest the opposite. Nobody is calling the people you're playing with bad for not being able to outdps you, but just because you don't personally feel your damage is low doesn't mean there isn't an overall problem with the specc.

    On a personal level, I wasn't too concerned about ele's output (was pulling good numbers, more than pulling my weight) until I started getting handily outdps'd by a mage that I was confident was not a good player in general. I don't need to be number one on the meters, but to know that others can pull better numbers with much less effort is really frustrating.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Regorill View Post
    On a personal level, I wasn't too concerned about ele's output (was pulling good numbers, more than pulling my weight) until I started getting handily outdps'd by a mage that I was confident was not a good player in general. I don't need to be number one on the meters, but to know that others can pull better numbers with much less effort is really frustrating.
    That's exactly the problem.

    Right now I see people I used to be a raid leader for acting like dps rockstars when they are keyboard turning keyboard spamming morons.

    When good players are eclipsed by bad players based entirely upon "class choice" the dps difference is too large.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  4. #104
    We all agree Ele could use a slight buff to its output. Looking at raidbots data (all parses) the buff should be no more than 5/6% dps, that would put us right in the middle of the pack (10th on 19 specs).

    Now the real debate is : how do we do that without buffing enhancement in the process ?

    We can rule out a direct buff to LB, FS, ES, Flametongue or even LS because they're all tied to enhancement dps. We can also rule out EB since it's already the best talent.

    That leaves LvB. A slight buff to buff to LvB would help PvP in the process (without solving the real issues) but it's unrealistic and, unless they suddenly make it hit like a truck, it wouldn't solve the problem on it's own.

    A more reasonable way would be to buff one of our passives, so either :
    1) increase Elemental Fury to 60% bonus critical damage.
    2) increase Elemental Focus to 20% bonus damage.
    3) give Elemental Focus a 3rd charge, would probably push its uptime close to 90%.
    4) increase Lava Surge proc chance
    5) increase the benefit of mastery
    6) increase Shamanism bonus to LB damage from 50% to 90% or 100%

    1), 2), 3) and 5) all increase burst damage, sustained damage and AoE but I'm not sure we need a buff to either burst or AoE (feel free to contradict me, I'd like to know what everyone thinks) so we can rule those out.

    4) would increase LvB contribution to our dps. It's already 35-40%, it would be dumb to increase it even more.

    6) doesn't affect burst and AoE at all and would make LB a desirable spell to cast, I think it would be a step in the right direction.

    Thoughts ?

  5. #105
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    I've been saying for a while that I think a buff to LB for sustained DPS in PvE and sustained pressure in PvP would be the way to go, and Shamanism would be my target to prevent it having any effect on the other two specs, yes.

    Our proc chances are fine, and we're already plenty bursty for PvE, the issue with PvP burst lies mostly in our comparative vulnerability to CC and interrupts while doing our burst, but some of the recent tweets and blue posts saying they're looking at reducing instant casts across the board makes me suspect that Elemental's PvP performance might be the target they try and nerf everyone else down to, rather than buffing us up.

  6. #106
    If anything, I think we'll see the same Shamanism buff that we received at the beginning of Firelands.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    If anything, I think we'll see the same Shamanism buff that we received at the beginning of Firelands.
    hehe they have been "tuning" elemental with shamanism since wrath now.

    As for the whole pvp thing... I don't even try with ele it's so bad. That's why I play my spriest for pvp instead. But the reality of being such a niche spec that really has no place in pvp past blowing up baddies that don't realize all they have to do is put their attention on us for a bit is sort of a "why bother" thing.

    I think the true problem blizzard is facing now is that the lower end of dps versus the higher end of dps is turning into double digit millions of damage done. Sure the bosses have tons of health, but 12 million damage less on a fight is a huge chunk of a bosses health now.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I've been saying for a while that I think a buff to LB for sustained DPS in PvE and sustained pressure in PvP would be the way to go, and Shamanism would be my target to prevent it having any effect on the other two specs, yes.

    Our proc chances are fine, and we're already plenty bursty for PvE, the issue with PvP burst lies mostly in our comparative vulnerability to CC and interrupts while doing our burst, but some of the recent tweets and blue posts saying they're looking at reducing instant casts across the board makes me suspect that Elemental's PvP performance might be the target they try and nerf everyone else down to, rather than buffing us up.
    Now I disagree with you that we need a way to prevent us from being CC'ed or locked during our burst. The problem is that people expect us to be able to use the entire Ascendance, like it was PvE. People freak out when they see you hop in that form, so fake casting is the easiest thing in the world. Make sure you have elemental blast ready so IF you get locked, just cast that one. If there is another interrupt ready for you, cast lightning bolts. Or use Earth Shock to keep the burst up. Or can even Unleash and NS Elemental Blast.

    We can still do SO much if fire school is locked, which is unique to the spec + we have grounding totem for the ranged interrupts and silences. That is plenty of protection. The goal is always to prevent peeling on you, so you can 3v2 or 3v1 optimally. Just hex a target who used trinket. Your healer will know you are bursting, and regardless of his CC being a magic, he can probably still throw it on the DPS (if you focus healer) since the opponemt healer hasn't got the globals to dispell. Stuff like a warlock casting Chaos Bolt with every CD up and immune to interrupts and silences is the dumbest thing in the world if you ask me.

    EDIT: Saw this on twitter from the mighty Greg: "We'd like to give Elemental more PvP survivability in 5.2. As always with discussions like this, I can't offer promises."

  9. #109
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enaina View Post
    EDIT: Saw this on twitter from the mighty Greg: "We'd like to give Elemental more PvP survivability in 5.2. As always with discussions like this, I can't offer promises."
    Once again I have my hopes high, just like when they said in a dev QA (4.1 or so I believe) that the glyph of elemental mastery wasn't providing the defense for ele shaman they were hoping for, and that they would like an extra def cd for elemental. We are 1.5y later and it's worse than ever. So I remain very sceptic.

  10. #110
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Once again I have my hopes high, just like when they said in a dev QA (4.1 or so I believe) that the glyph of elemental mastery wasn't providing the defense for ele shaman they were hoping for, and that they would like an extra def cd for elemental. We are 1.5y later and it's worse than ever. So I remain very sceptic.
    It's the second time he's mentioned Elemental needing more survivability in PvP in the last couple weeks, so there's that. It's not just a one-off that he's forgotten; it's still on his mind.

  11. #111
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    it's still on his mind.
    Now that he is on twitter he gets spammed to dead by unhappy ele shamans. I bet it wasn't a matter of forgetting it why they didn't gave ele a defensive ability in cata, I just think it's a matter of ele being a lower priority compared to the traditional pvp specs.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Now that he is on twitter he gets spammed to dead by unhappy ele shamans. I bet it wasn't a matter of forgetting it why they didn't gave ele a defensive ability in cata, I just think it's a matter of ele being a lower priority compared to the traditional pvp specs.
    We will never be able to tell, but it's consistent that warlocks, mages and rogues have always been really good in 3s. Now it's been a while since rogues were 'this' bad (balanced). Also resto shamans have been left for a good while being very strong, and still are. Perhaps it's easier to balance the game with 5 clear topspecs.

  13. #113
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enaina View Post
    We will never be able to tell, but it's consistent that warlocks, mages and rogues have always been really good in 3s. Now it's been a while since rogues were 'this' bad (balanced). Also resto shamans have been left for a good while being very strong, and still are. Perhaps it's easier to balance the game with 5 clear topspecs.
    I rather think that they want one spec to be really good per class, more than one is just a bonus (disc is crap atm but shadow is good, so disc becomes a lower priority, arms is good rest of warriors doesnt really matter, enh/resto is good so ele isnt that urgent, ....). Rogues has no real good spec atm, so they plan a lot of changes for 5.2 (according to gc twitter).

  14. #114
    I think that alot of it comes down to guaranteed critical strikes, to balance that they have to have lava burst hit like a wet noodle. I think removing the guaranteed crit and buffing lava burst alot might be the way to go.
    Hatred the Fearless.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Voltage View Post
    I think that alot of it comes down to guaranteed critical strikes, to balance that they have to have lava burst hit like a wet noodle. I think removing the guaranteed crit and buffing lava burst alot might be the way to go.
    but that means you have to mage a change also the buff we get after a crit (increased spelldamage)

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I've been saying for a while that I think a buff to LB for sustained DPS in PvE and sustained pressure in PvP would be the way to go, and Shamanism would be my target to prevent it having any effect on the other two specs, yes.
    Personally i am against buffing Shamanism.

    1.Lb is not supposed to Crit higher than our actual Main Spell (Lvb), i think that's the main reason they nerfed Lb in Beta
    2.Shamanism was buffed during Wotlk / Cata 4 times already, yet our Dps during the last tier wasn't that good

    I know Shamanism got changed with MoP, yet i don't think it's the right way, Blizzard chose Shamanism as a way to Buff Elemental often enough in the past, however the effect of this buff always dimished over time.

    Personally i would prefer if they give Searing Totem an actual sense within the rotation and buff Unleash Elements for Elemental.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-12-15 at 12:04 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


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  17. #117
    LB doesn't hit harder than LvB, occasionnaly it does crit a tad harder (depending on procs) but the DPET of LvB is more than 2 times (it's close to 3 times in fact) higher than the DPET of LB. IMO LvB is fine, we need more sustained damage and a buff to LB is the best way to go without changing mechanics (which they stated multiple time they refrain to do during an xpac).

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Voltage View Post
    I think that alot of it comes down to guaranteed critical strikes, to balance that they have to have lava burst hit like a wet noodle. I think removing the guaranteed crit and buffing lava burst alot might be the way to go.
    Like a wet noodle? You must be out of your mind, lava burst damage is insane. I have got a person down to like 50-60% in the very beginning for the fight where no one has moved up (the situation where you just run on mounts lol) just because I got Lava Burst procs.

    EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncn9-...ature=youtu.be

    Watch this and tell me damage is like a wet noodle. This is a low skilled resto druid at 1600 mmr, but regardless of that, it doesn't change the fact that I kill him from nearly full health (he NS'es to like 95% before running down the ramp) in a few sec. Note that I have no trinkets or procs up.
    Last edited by Enaina; 2012-12-15 at 04:00 PM.

  19. #119
    Personally i would like a small buff to LB, as well as tweaking LvB/Ascendance. Buff LvB damage 10-20%, but reduce the duration of Ascendance by 5sec. Also make elemental immune to silence during ascendence. Ascendance is just too boring as it is right now.

    For pvp i suggest Astral shift going baseline, and a new defensive replacing the talent. Also buff stoneskin totem, this is just too weak. This together with reduced overall insta CC and burst should make elemental a bit more viable.

    Edit: And elemental's set bonuses is a joke. 5% LB? Similar speccs have a 10%-ish increase of spells that deal more than or equal to the %of LB's dps.
    Last edited by oxpo; 2012-12-15 at 04:51 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by oxpo View Post
    Personally i would like a small buff to LB, as well as tweaking LvB/Ascendance. Buff LvB damage 10-20%, but reduce the duration of Ascendance by 5sec. Also make elemental immune to silence during ascendence. Ascendance is just too boring as it is right now.

    For pvp i suggest Astral shift going baseline, and a new defensive replacing the talent. Also buff stoneskin totem, this is just too weak. This together with reduced overall insta CC and burst should make elemental a bit more viable.

    Edit: And elemental's set bonuses is a joke. 5% LB? Similar speccs have a 10%-ish increase of spells that deal more than or equal to the %of LB's dps.
    Greg said on Twitter that they want to increase elemental's survivalbility.

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