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  1. #1
    Mechagnome holyforce's Avatar
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    Question [Blood] Mastery reforging? Or Avoidance, parry/dodge/mastery reforging?

    So I'm a little confused on what to reforge too, mastery? Or parry/dodge. I'm thinking ether doing a mastery blood shield build, or a pure avoidance build with some mastery stacking. Which is the best for 10man and 5 mans? Which is preferable? Mitigated damage/absorbed or Avoided damage with some minimal absorption via blood shield. Not to sure here guys :P Google provided very little information other then specs. Thanks in advance for the help guys
    doh my god....

  2. #2
    There is no difference in absorbing a 200K hit or avoide a 200K hit. It both does there job. So in that regard it doesnt mather what you reforge in. As long as you stick to either mastery build or avoidance. If your talking about 5man challange mode, i woud say go avoidance and hit&exp cap. If your talking about heroics then i can ensure you those are already possible in full rare gear dps while blood spec.

  3. #3
    It always depends on what content you do, what lineup you have and how well you can use your Death Strikes.
    For a dk who plays reasonably well mastery is generally better than avoidance.
    What you also have to consider is hit/exp caps or even haste to boost your dps. (since often times doing more damage can be just as important or even more important than mitigating damage).
    Personally I intend to go hit (to 7.5) > exp (to 7.5) > mastery > haste > exp (to 15) >>>>>>>>> avoidance>crit.

    PS: Avoidance has some value for aoe tanking (since you might be using some of your death runes on Blood Boil) and gimicky bosses like Gara'Jal.
    Last edited by Nillo; 2012-12-04 at 06:55 PM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    It always depends on what content you do, what lineup you have and how well you can use your Death Strikes.
    For a dk who plays reasonably well mastery is generally better than avoidance.
    What you also have to consider is hit/exp caps or even haste to boost your dps. (since often times doing more damage can be just as important or even more important than mitigating damage).
    Personally I intend to go hit (to 7.5) > exp (to 7.5) > mastery > haste > exp (to 15) >>>>>>>>> avoidance>crit.
    i strongly disagree with anything this guy just said
    doing more dps as a tank is never more important than having more defensive stats (which lower your dps)
    i would suggest reforging from parry to mastery or dodge
    and just never think about your haste for example ??

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by flowa View Post
    i strongly disagree with anything this guy just said
    doing more dps as a tank is never more important than having more defensive stats (which lower your dps)
    i would suggest reforging from parry to mastery or dodge
    and just never think about your haste for example ??
    Surviving comes first,....... but with the insignificant amount of damage most of the bosses in current content deal it's just not worth bothering about damage mitigation compared to increasing dps to meet enrage timers or other mechanics that make prolonged fights bad (like Blade Lord Ta'Jak gaining a damage buff every minute).
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  6. #6
    I will shed what I have read and tried with you.

    I tanked as a DK from ToC thru DS since my DK hasnt been a priority in MoP.

    During this time I maintained a stam, avoid, and mastery set whenever I could (as any good tank should do)

    Stam is for magic fights, avoid is for dualwield/lots of add fights, mastery is for everything in between and mainly for higher skilled tanks who know that death strike 24/7 is the play.

    I am pretty sure they changed DS to always heal regardless. I havent tanked in MoP but threat should not be an issue. Your DPS, while not irrelevant, should not be a concern of anyone in your group.

    try to never have haste hit or exp on your gear. you really want mastery and dodge/parry on every piece. if you are having problems with threat after 3 seconds into the fight punch your keyboard harder. mastery on everything if it doesnt have mastery! you want your parry slightly higher than your dodge (no i dont remember why) but you want them close to even so parry goes to dodge in most reforges. if you want to know how to gem check how tanks on your level are doing it. dont check guilds like paragon as they have better quality players and will almost certainly be pure stam for progression.

    overall mastery is a safer route once you realize that every time you have a gcd you want to DS or be rune striking for more DS and then go to another option.

    The best advance I can give you off topic is realize that most of your cds are only ~1 minute long and 10 or more seconds in duration. Learn to use them often.
    Last edited by SqueektheWeek; 2012-12-04 at 07:13 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by flowa View Post
    i strongly disagree with anything this guy just said
    doing more dps as a tank is never more important than having more defensive stats (which lower your dps)
    i would suggest reforging from parry to mastery or dodge
    and just never think about your haste for example ??
    yeah when you hit 1% enrages that line of thinking changes

    and you don't reforge from parry to dodge if you are going for an avoidance build, you do it the other way around due to the harsher diminishing returns on dodge compared to parry

    in general both "mastery>parry>dodge>rest" and "mastery>hit>exp>rest" have their drawbacks and strengths, it depends on what kind of raids you do and what kind of people you are raiding with, if you are hitting enrages and healing is fine, go for the hit and exp caps, if dps isn't an issue but healing is go for more avoidance, if neither is it depends on how much control you want, I hated seeing outbreak miss on the pull etc

    although I wouldn't go for any haste or exp hard caps like that guy above said
    Last edited by Enosh; 2012-12-04 at 07:21 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    yeah when you hit 1% enrages that line of thinking changes
    Or the moment you realize that less than 10% of the healing you receive is actually from healers directly healing you while most of it is covered by DS/Blood Shield and Beacon of Light and some random hots/splash heals
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  9. #9
    Field Marshal Halland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Or the moment you realize that less than 10% of the healing you receive is actually from healers directly healing you while most of it is covered by DS/Blood Shield and Beacon of Light and some random hots/splash heals
    Exactly this.

  10. #10
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    Hit to cap>Exp to cap>Mastery>Mastery>Mastery>Mastery>Parry>Dodge (If you're trying to crank out some extra tank dps otherwise) Mastery>Parry>Dodge

    Mastery is KING so start stacking it. Furthermore, do to the bonus parry we gain from strength, it greatly outweighs dodge for us so don't bother reforging for it in favor of the two aforementioned stats.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SqueektheWeek View Post

    try to never have haste hit or exp on your gear. you really want mastery and dodge/parry on every piece. if you are having problems with threat after 3 seconds into the fight punch your keyboard harder. mastery on everything if it doesnt have mastery! you want your parry slightly higher than your dodge (no i dont remember why) but you want them close to even so parry goes to dodge in most reforges. if you want to know how to gem check how tanks on your level are doing it. dont check guilds like paragon as they have better quality players and will almost certainly be pure stam for progression.

    overall mastery is a safer route once you realize that every time you have a gcd you want to DS or be rune striking for more DS and then go to another option.

    The best advance I can give you off topic is realize that most of your cds are only ~1 minute long and 10 or more seconds in duration. Learn to use them often.
    As I was setting up my Dodge Parry ratings I noticed that we gained more in Parry rating then we did doge. My Dodge is at 10% and Parry at 20% with maybe a 200-400~ rating difference (3450 dodge and like 36 or 3845 parry). This is also with a very heavy mastery setup, unbuffed i sit at about 130% mastery (don't know the rating) in a 10 man raid its around 160, and 25 man is about the same (lfr). Now my gear also has an assortment of hit and exp. on it for 10 man, where our damage does count and I feel i need a little more as often enough to be noticed i see my Rune Weapon miss diseases or Soul Reaper.

    @OP honestly try out each, Get as much mastery as you can (like I did) while trying to keep avoidance hovering in the same ball park. then try the other way around were you favor more avoidance then mastery. Test each for a week- Herocis, lfr, normal raids. Pick which one you like. For me, i'm going back and redoing much of my gem and reforging to favor a "balanced" build, droping my master to say 115 or right at 100% and picking up dodge/parry and stam gems.

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Dre4m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Furthermore, do to the bonus parry we gain from strength, it greatly outweighs dodge for us so don't bother reforging for it in favor of the two aforementioned stats.
    Getting parry from str has nothing to do with why parry is far superior to dodge, it's about diminishing returns.

    Edit : To stay on topic I've gone Mastery>hit/exp>parry>dodge on my blood dk and It's worked out good on all fights (12/16 hc atm).

    Hit and expertise and in extension damage output is way more vital for a tank in a 10man raid setting then in a 25man one. I would never dream of taking away all of my hit/exp for parry/dodge especially considering how tight enrage certain bosses have ,depending on your healing combo.
    Last edited by Dre4m; 2012-12-06 at 10:38 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dre4m View Post
    Getting parry from str has nothing to do with why parry is far superior to dodge, it's about diminishing returns.

    Edit : To stay on topic I've gone Mastery>hit/exp>parry>dodge on my blood dk and It's worked out good on all fights (12/16 hc atm).

    Hit and expertise and in extension damage output is way more vital for a tank in a 10man raid setting then in a 25man one. I would never dream of taking away all of my hit/exp for parry/dodge especially considering how tight enrage certain bosses have ,depending on your healing combo.
    No shit bro, DR are understood to ALWAYS be in play but thanks for the attempt at educating me. So to elaborate on my statement so guys like you do not attempt to play keyboard samurai:

    Due to the increased amount of parry rating we gain from strength as plate tanks this greatly reduces are desire to balance it with an equal dodge rating. This is due to the fact that we will greatly hinder the effectiveness of our dancing rune weapon as well as drastically increase diminishing returns. Lastly,the amount of stats that will be needed to balance dodge and parry yield higher benefit if they are used to increase hit and expertise.

    There savy?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Due to the increased amount of parry rating we gain from strength as plate tanks this greatly reduces are desire to balance it with an equal dodge rating. This is due to the fact that we will greatly hinder the effectiveness of our dancing rune weapon as well as drastically increase diminishing returns. Lastly,the amount of stats that will be needed to balance dodge and parry yield higher benefit if they are used to increase hit and expertise.

    There savy?
    I have no idea what you're trying to say with this °_°
    How does dancing rune weapon have anything to do with Str, Parry and diminishing returns?
    Why do you think balancing dodge/parry is not important?

    I agree that hit/exp are way more important which generally leads to reforging away every bit of dodge/parry you have thus making it impossible to balance those stats. (which is probably what you were trying to say)
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    I have no idea what you're trying to say with this °_°
    How does dancing rune weapon have anything to do with Str, Parry and diminishing returns?
    Why do you think balancing dodge/parry is not important?

    I agree that hit/exp are way more important which generally leads to reforging away every bit of dodge/parry you have thus making it impossible to balance those stats. (which is probably what you were trying to say)
    I think it's obvious I'm saying to NOT balance dodge or parry and to let dodge fall by the wayside. As for strength, parry and drw....the more strength you obtain through gear the higher your parry rating climbs which therefore gives you more bang for the buck when you use drw for the 20% parry increase.

    And as for why I do not feel balancing parry and dodge are important are for the exact same reasons I've so since Firelands. We as blood dks rely on our ability to take damage and then heal/shield it up with death strikes this therefore necessitates the need for hit and expertise (soft) cap thereby removing the chance for it to miss.

    In order to obtain said caps stats must be sacrificed and I choose to sacrifice dodge because of the DR that are already in play and would only hinder us further if we were to try to balance dodge and parry on top of trying to maintain hit and expertise caps.
    Last edited by Samsarathedk; 2012-12-06 at 07:27 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    Hit to cap>Exp to cap>Mastery>Mastery>Mastery>Mastery>Parry>Dodge (If you're trying to crank out some extra tank dps otherwise) Mastery>Parry>Dodge.
    don't bother exp capping. DS gives a shield on D/P/M, it's not supposed to but so far this expac it is.

    any move that matters isn't parriable, anyway. Death Strike, Rune Strike - cannot be parried. Blood Boil, Outbreak - spells. the only thing that 7.5 - 15% Exp gives you is more Scent of Blood procs and, while not useless, the stats could definitely be better allocated elsewhere. oh, and it helps the random Heart Strike - but if you're gearing for Heart Strike spam.....

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssith View Post
    don't bother exp capping. DS gives a shield on D/P/M, it's not supposed to but so far this expac it is.

    any move that matters isn't parriable, anyway. Death Strike, Rune Strike - cannot be parried. Blood Boil, Outbreak - spells. the only thing that 7.5 - 15% Exp gives you is more Scent of Blood procs and, while not useless, the stats could definitely be better allocated elsewhere. oh, and it helps the random Heart Strike - but if you're gearing for Heart Strike spam.....
    Who said anything about heart strike spamming? I merely said expertise and hit cap prevents misses on death strikes but let me further explain the benefit. A missed heart strike means your blood runes go on cd slower which in turn takes longer for you to convert them into death runes which gimps your banked death strike. Furthermore, it increases the chance for your melee attacks to miss which can greatly benefit the raid on fights with a tight enrage timer like H Gara'jal or with H Elegon's soft enrage. So, expertise and hit caps are quite beneficial as they increase your damage output by negating death strike misses.dodges as well as heart strike and melee dodges/misses. Thanks and have a nice day.

  18. #18
    I think it's soft cap vs. hard cap. You speak of different things, that's all.

  19. #19
    I do a hybrid priority on my dk and go mastery, hit, exp, haste, parry, dodge. Due to Diminishing returns your parry should be 2.5x your dodge. I choose haste over dodge and parry because there is already enough of that on your gear if you use all tank pieces, and haste turns into more runes which turns into more death strikes. Although as long as you are stacking mastery and playing your death knight well, any stats will work.
    nothing but empty space here bro. move along now.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Samsarathedk View Post
    I think it's obvious I'm saying to NOT balance dodge or parry and to let dodge fall by the wayside. As for strength, parry and drw....the more strength you obtain through gear the higher your parry rating climbs which therefore gives you more bang for the buck when you use drw for the 20% parry increase.

    And as for why I do not feel balancing parry and dodge are important are for the exact same reasons I've so since Firelands. We as blood dks rely on our ability to take damage and then heal/shield it up with death strikes this therefore necessitates the need for hit and expertise (soft) cap thereby removing the chance for it to miss.

    In order to obtain said caps stats must be sacrificed and I choose to sacrifice dodge because of the DR that are already in play and would only hinder us further if we were to try to balance dodge and parry on top of trying to maintain hit and expertise caps.
    Two problems with this:

    1- While Death Strike may miss, the heal and subsequent Blood Shield do not. They will always be applied. The only caveat here is that on a missed Death Strike the heal and Blood Shield will not benefit from Scent of Blood stacks. However, neither will a missed Death Strike remove Scent of Blood stacks.

    2- The plus 20% parry from DRW is additive not multiplicative, and hence does not receive any additional benefit from a higher static parry rating. This means that whether your current parry on your character sheet is 10% or 15%, the increase parry from DRW remains the same: 20%. Hence, with DRW up, the character sheet parry for the two examples is 30% and 35%, respectively.

    I do not mean to take anything away from anyone noting the dps benefits of being hit/exp capped. I just want to insure that people have a good idea of the pros and cons therein. A lot of good detail can be found on the Blood DK sticky in these forums, especially the section titled "Balancing Avoidance and DR". They have the script that you can run in-game which tells you the ideal parry percentage based upon your current dodge so that you minimize the diminishing returns on both stats.

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