1. #1
    Grunt
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    Dutch teens charged with manslaughter over football game

    I just read this article on usatoday - http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ayers/1743395/ where 3 teens where involved in a fight that led to a referee's death.

    The story described they were still trying to find out what exactly happened that cause the teens to attack. Anyone over there familiar with what happened?

    Anyway, my condolences to the lineman who passed away and to his family.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Sillicis's Avatar
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    Three boys, ages 15 and 16 beat up a linesman. Nobody knows exactly why they did it but the boys. They are in jail at the moment and are not allowed to have contact to anyone but their lawyer..
    Pretty much what's in the article is what everybody knows..

    All amateur football matches are cancelled next saturday, and all proffesional teams hold one minute of silence just before their match next weekend.

  3. #3
    As Sillicis said, and pretty much the article you linked mentioned that's all we know.

    Do hope they're getting trialed as adults and not as kids (depending on what the facts really are, but so far it seems fair to do that), like the girl and her friend that hired another kid to murder another girl..
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  4. #4
    Like Sillicis said, there is not a lot of information yet. There are some rumours going around that the same kids who did it have been known to cause problems more often (verbally mostly), but nothing of this nature. There is a press conference going on right now, so maybe that gives us more information. Not that the reason really matters though. This should never ever happen, for whatever reason.

    edit: The father of one of the boys was banned from football for 5 years, 3 years ago, for headbutting a referee...
    Last edited by TCCB1833; 2012-12-04 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #5
    Grunt
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    Thanks for the responses back. Yea, the more I think about this it seems like a real tragedy any way you look at it. One person is dead and three people are potentially throwing away a good portion of their lives in jail.

    Over here, it's usually crazy parents and coaches that cause problems.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord slime's Avatar
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    This is awful. Sports are there to make people better at life. Whether by strengthing our bodies and minds or teaching us the important benefit to teamwork and listening to your superiors. There is much to be taken away from sports for youth. Then people started making millions of dollars playing them (and becoming super famous) - I have never watched a football/soccer game in my life yet I know who david beckham is. Now, kids even adults believe they are on the journey to this kind of stardom and riches even though 99.9% are not. Parents get lost in little johnny's unbelieveable football talent - "He's gonna make us all rich!". And the mindset seems to be 'no way I'm letting that flipping ref ruin my (or little johnny's) future sports career'. Winning is an important part to sports - but it shouldn't be 'at all costs'.

    Instead of being what they were always meant to be - sports have become waaaay too much of a profession.

    Quick question to the folks from the country where this happened -> how punished will these kids get, my understanding is that they will not get punished much at all. Reading the article you linked - seems a footballer kicked a spectator (out of anger not an accident)- killing him, and he got 3 years? wow.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Quick question to the folks from the country where this happened -> how punished will these kids get, my understanding is that they will not get punished much at all. Reading the article you linked - seems a footballer kicked a spectator (out of anger not an accident)- killing him, and he got 3 years? wow.
    They're most likely getting trialed (?) as children so yea, so not getting much of a punishment I guess... Other then being marked for life, unless they're given a new ID after...

    IIRC a few months or a year back 2 kids got pretty much away with, I guess you'd call it manslaughter, when they killed somebody they hit while driving a scooter or something. Reason was they couldn't prove who was driving so they were unable to charge em for that.

    Also a few months back a girl had "hired" another kid to murder her ex best friend. They got trailed as children as well (except for the killer I think).

    Funny really, on the one hand people here want the law to be harsher and less "protecting the criminals" but last week a cop shot and killed a kid (17 or 18). The kid was known by the police, they got a report he was carrying a gun and threatened somebody. Apparently police told him to put his arms in the air, instead he reached for his waist. So yea, what ya expect from a cop, sure it wasn't his intention to kill the kid, just a lousy shot I guess.. Should see the outrage, calling it cold blooded execution. Don't know but if a cop tells you to put your hands above your head, perhaps do that?

    Not forgetting, the role models for these kids are not setting such a good example. If you watch a (football (soccer)) match, when the ref makes a decision players don't agree with they go and shout at the ref instead of making a normal debate. Not that would do any good, the decision is pratically final the moment it is made. Sportmanship.. Right..
    Last edited by Amorac; 2012-12-04 at 06:37 PM.
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  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Honzi's Avatar
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    I've read about it on eurosport.de earlier today and the article suggested they attacked the linesman because they didn't agree with a decision of his during the match.
    "You're messing with my zen thing, man!"

  9. #9
    Grunt
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    I did find out something new regarding this. One blogger on CNN from the Netherlands is claiming the kids involved are immigrants from Morocco. I had read a few things about other European countries having issues with immigrants and this looks like this may be another situation where immigrants are making the country look bad.

  10. #10
    I really hope those three beasts rot in jail...

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Horrid Crow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakshan View Post
    I did find out something new regarding this. One blogger on CNN from the Netherlands is claiming the kids involved are immigrants from Morocco. I had read a few things about other European countries having issues with immigrants and this looks like this may be another situation where immigrants are making the country look bad.
    This is also what I've understood from various Dutch media sources.
    Doesn't surprise me really. A lot of Moroccans cause trouble here.
    It's not uncommon for people to feel afraid when they stumble upon a group of "friendly" Moroccans in the evening...

    But of course it doesn't matter where they are from. The most important thing is that they should rot in jail since they are obviously evil and have no conscience.
    What is worth fighting for?

  12. #12
    Problem is and I mean no offense here - the Dutch are not exactly known for their sensibility when it pertains to football! I'm reminded of a conversation between myself & some fans of PSV Eindhoven maybe 2-3 years ago on the train to Ibrox, they had asked about an Old Firm game a few weeks prior which had been an ill tempered affair and laughed when I said it was a really bad game. They said that in Holland things were very dangerous at certain games, people throwing missiles, explosives & people being beaten and that was "part of the game" - that physically sickened me and lets be honest, I've grown up watching some of the most disgusting displays of sectarian violence in football. The Dutch game needs to take a cold hard look at itself and realise that it honestly makes the problems of the 80's English game & the worst of the Scottish game look small fry, when you're speaking to guys who have seen people throw explosives at a match, that's not acceptable!

    For what it's worth those guys were alright with me, I never felt in any danger and they were friendly enough but that sort of "ah fuck it, that's normal" attitude needs to be addressed and sharpish - this poor linesman being attacked is uncalled for, guy was only doing his job and it will put people off officiating in the future which in turn kills the game at grass roots level.
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  13. #13
    Bloodsail Admiral Horrid Crow's Avatar
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    ^^ You're not from here, are you? That's really not true at all, I think they were just boasting.
    In countries like England, Poland, Spain it's much, much more dangerous during a typical football match.
    What is worth fighting for?

  14. #14
    I will give you Poland no problems, possibly give you Spain as well, but as much as I massively dislike the English game I will suggest that you're a ways wide of the mark with that one. The English game has cleaned itself up for the most part, the violent culture off the pitch has been reduced to levels which I would say to you that if there was a riot this week at an EPL game it would stun the whole UK it just doesn't happen, there are undoubtedly idiots who will make some racist gestures & have unsavoury chants, but no significant violence.
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  15. #15
    Epic! Detheavn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koodledrum View Post
    They said that in Holland things were very dangerous at certain games, people throwing missiles, explosives & people being beaten and that was "part of the game"
    Yes, because all Dutch people are like that ... Missiles? Explosives? Really?
    I bet they were just trolling you and you simply fell for it

  16. #16
    I was inclined to believe it as I'd previously seen this program which while sensationalist, doesn't exactly dispel the thought that some people in Dutch football take shit way too seriously

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rea..._International
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  17. #17
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    The general football violence culture in England has died down greatly from it's peak in the 1970's and 1980's. What happens now are isolated incidents and extreme minorities.

    I do think some places get an unfair stick, personally I don't think Turkey is anywhere near as bad as it was in the 1990's, they hype up an intimidating atmosphere with flares, drum banging and ridiculously loud fans, but it's a theatrics now.

    I'd feel safer going to an away game to Fenerbahce or Galatasaray, who's violence seems to be contained in matches purely between the two, than I would going to watch my team play in Rome, and Rome is my favourite city in the world.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by koodledrum View Post
    Problem is and I mean no offense here - the Dutch are not exactly known for their sensibility when it pertains to football! I'm reminded of a conversation between myself & some fans of PSV Eindhoven maybe 2-3 years ago on the train to Ibrox, they had asked about an Old Firm game a few weeks prior which had been an ill tempered affair and laughed when I said it was a really bad game. They said that in Holland things were very dangerous at certain games, people throwing missiles, explosives & people being beaten and that was "part of the game" - that physically sickened me and lets be honest, I've grown up watching some of the most disgusting displays of sectarian violence in football. The Dutch game needs to take a cold hard look at itself and realise that it honestly makes the problems of the 80's English game & the worst of the Scottish game look small fry, when you're speaking to guys who have seen people throw explosives at a match, that's not acceptable!

    For what it's worth those guys were alright with me, I never felt in any danger and they were friendly enough but that sort of "ah fuck it, that's normal" attitude needs to be addressed and sharpish - this poor linesman being attacked is uncalled for, guy was only doing his job and it will put people off officiating in the future which in turn kills the game at grass roots level.
    I am from Eindhoven and I can guarantee you that the hooligans in Eindhoven aren't very bad. Not even close to the worst times in English football. Just a bunch of fishermans tales with their rockets and bombs. Not saying nothing ever happens but the worst is a fight with 5 people vs another 5 people. Especially if it came from the mouth of PSV supporters. Now if it were Feyenoord or Ajax hooligans, then it is a different matter. But even them, they can't do much anymore because the UEFA and the dutch football union will punish both teams immediatly.

    The problem in the Netherlands is though that on the amateur pitches it is getting out of hand. The referees have no control over the matches anymore.
    Also, the week before this happening, another guy kicked a 70 year-old on looker in the chest who died later. Oh and I didn't read the entire article but the man that died this week didn't get beaten to death in a sense that he die right there on the spot. He probably had a brain annurism (sp?). Not that it makes a difference in the severity but the image is a little different then litterally kicking the life out of somebody.

    And also the stupid stuff like parents of 10 year olds getting into fights with fathers from the opposing team. Like that southpark episode where that father of Stan fights other fathers. It is really head-smashes-desk type of stuff.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 05:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by koodledrum View Post
    I was inclined to believe it as I'd previously seen this program which while sensationalist, doesn't exactly dispel the thought that some people in Dutch football take shit way too seriously

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rea..._International
    Haha, that show was just stupid. A big mouth contest. At least for the Netherlands. Maybe that one in Brazil was more serious, where they actually got shot at.
    Last edited by Bolson13; 2012-12-06 at 04:37 PM.

  19. #19
    I have seen several of these documentaries aswell, and when I watched it when it was about other countries i was thinking 'wow, they need to get their shit sorted out over there'. When it was about the Netherlands (where I am from, and I have visited Feyenoord games for the last 12 years) I was like 'this is not true at all or at least heavily outdated.'

    There are only very small groups of hooligans who still think in the way they show you in the documentary.

    Amateur football is something different. There are often young hotheaded teenagers in many teams who cannot control themselves when the referee makes a bad decision. Usually it is doesn't go any further then some bad mouth and some pushing and punching here and there before other people interfere.

    Still, I think clubs should talk more and earlier with these type of hotheads before it goes horribly wrong like it did in this case.
    Last edited by Mikeshort; 2012-12-07 at 12:20 PM.

  20. #20
    Not saying referee's are killed, but this kind of thing happens a lot at amateur level in Glasgow. Referee makes a bad call, a riot soon follows. I was playing a match a couple of years ago and 2 guys ran on the pitch with knives and chased the referee because he apparently gave a penalty which knocked their team out of the west of Scotland cup 2 weeks prior.

    It's pure and utter hooliganism, but with no official authorities on hand like the professional game there isn't a whole lot that can be done to protect people simply doing their job.

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