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  1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Lostwood's Avatar
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    Who is accountable?

    There's one thing I don't understand.

    The general consensus (edit: amongst players, not in-game) is that the Horde was not responsible for the actions of the Forsaken at the Wrathgate, yet the Alliance as a whole is still held accountable for the actions against the blood elves (in Warcraft 3!).

    Surely they're either both responsible, or neither of them are.

    What exactly is the difference?
    Last edited by Lostwood; 2012-12-04 at 05:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Because the Forsaken used a plague that killed both sides. The Horde didn't sanction or obviously want that.



  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Lostwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Because the Forsaken used a plague that killed both sides. The Horde didn't sanction or obviously want that.
    True, but I'm not sure that matters. It still happened. As they were/are a sub-faction, shouldn't the Horde as overarching organization be as accountable?
    For example, we don't know if the rest of the Alliance condoned/was aware of events surrounding blood elves, yet they are held accountable.
    Last edited by Lostwood; 2012-12-04 at 05:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Pit Lord Galbrei's Avatar
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    There is no "general consensus" whatsoever here.

    I'm pretty sure the Alliance holds the Horde accountable for the events in the Wrathgate as well, just as much as I believe they don't feel it's their fault for the blood elves changing sides to the Horde. There are many among the Alliance, including the majority of the high elves that believe the blood elves are just a bunch of traitors.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lostwood View Post
    True, but I'm not sure that matters. It still happened. As they were/are a sub-faction, shouldn't the Horde as overarching organization be as accountable? For example, we don't know if the rest of the Alliance condoned/was aware of events surrounding blood elves, yet they are held accountable.
    What are you talking about? Is this about Garithos?

    You forget, the Blood Elves were "free-agents" after the events with Garithos, so most don't actually "blame" the Alliance for that. They were actually interested in joining once again with the Alliance, and even had a dwarven ambassador in Eversong they were showing around. When it came to lite the "Ambassador" was actually a spy sent by the Alliance to sabotage their sanctums and give invasion info to the Night Elves who started taking over areas of Eversong and Ghostlands, then the whole thing shifted and the Blood Elves decided to join with the Horde.

  6. #6
    I'm not sure where you're getting that the Alliance is being held accountable for Garithos' treatment of the Blood Elves during WC3, or that the Horde isn't being held accountable for the Wrathgate.

    For starters, when the Alliance assaulted the Undercity, Varian Wrynn openly declared war on the Horde at that moment (he said it himself). If that isn't the Horde being held accountable, I don't know what is.

    And why bring up the Blood Elves' mistreatment at the hands of Garithos? Has there been quests about this that I haven't noticed?

  7. #7
    The "good" faction accepts responsibility for their actions and the "bad" one does not. What's the surprise here?
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  8. #8
    The difference was the wrathgate gassing was not sanctioned by horde leaders, The alliance leaders made a decision in their own best interests that were not in the best interest of the blood elves and that caused the blood elves to turn to their next option the Horde. The actions of a liuetenant gone rogue is different than a king making a decision.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    You forget, the Blood Elves were "free-agents" after the events with Garithos, so most don't actually "blame" the Alliance for that. They were actually interested in joining once again with the Alliance, and even had a dwarven ambassador in Eversong they were showing around. When it came to lite the "Ambassador" was actually a spy sent by the Alliance to sabotage their sanctums and give invasion info to the Night Elves who started taking over areas of Eversong and Ghostlands, then the whole thing shifted and the Blood Elves decided to join with the Horde.
    Well this is the first I'm hearing of this...when did this all go down? What was the Alliance's reasoning for this?

  10. #10
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    Well this is the first I'm hearing of this...when did this all go down? What was the Alliance's reasoning for this?
    It happens in Eversong Forest, one of the first quests you get there actually. Their reasoning was that they were trying to help their allies (the Night Elves) gain territory on land that they saw as open territory since the Scourge had devastated it. Like any good military, they were aware of the weakened Blood Elf presence and were taking steps to ensure that the Belves couldn't threaten their claim on the territory.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    It happens in Eversong Forest, one of the first quests you get there actually. Their reasoning was that they were trying to help their allies (the Night Elves) gain territory on land that they saw as open territory since the Scourge had devastated it. Like any good military, they were aware of the weakened Blood Elf presence and were taking steps to ensure that the Belves couldn't threaten their claim on the territory.
    Since when are the Night Elves land-hungry? To me they're always seemed interested in defending their ancestral homes, not striking out and grabbing new territory. The whole story just seems like a huge plot convenience to give Belfs a good reason to side with the horde, or at least a better reason than "Garithos was mean to us".

    Honestly it sickens me such a ridiculous story is cannon.

    EDIT: I mean I'm not saying the Belfs should have joined the Alliance, but alls I'm saying is that we didn't really need this story. The decision could have simply come down to they didn't like how they were recently treated and the horde was offering good membership benefits or w/e. But instead Blizz has to ham fist it and be like "oh no, the Alliance is evil! We must side with the Horde!"
    Last edited by Lemons; 2012-12-05 at 04:38 PM.

  12. #12
    I guess I don't know what you intend to be done.

    A rogue faction of forsaken attack everything at the battle of Angrathar, killing horde and alliance alike.

    Lady Sylvannas (who leads the forsaken AND had no part or knowledge of the attack) retreats from the undercity, and the horde and alliance alike assault the city and purge it, killing everyone with the Apothecary. It definitely hurt Horde/Alliance relations, Wrynn obviously still blames the horde for it.

    What do you want to happen for us to "take accountability"?
    Your face when the Scoundrel is Gallagher.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    It happens in Eversong Forest, one of the first quests you get there actually. Their reasoning was that they were trying to help their allies (the Night Elves) gain territory on land that they saw as open territory since the Scourge had devastated it. Like any good military, they were aware of the weakened Blood Elf presence and were taking steps to ensure that the Belves couldn't threaten their claim on the territory.


    Yus, a quest drop called "incriminating documents" or somesuch drops off a night elf spy incriminating the dwarves. And there's a bunch of nelf spy camps around the blood elf zones..

    Also, I don't think the blood elves 100% join the horde until you do all the zone quests, kill dar'khan, and get sent as an envoy to Orgimmar

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    Well this is the first I'm hearing of this...when did this all go down? What was the Alliance's reasoning for this?
    Like mentioned, this all happens in the Blood Elf starting zones. You are the one that uncovers the plot when you are sent to investigate why one of the sanctums started spawning arcane elementals that began killing everyone. You go there and stumble on a Night Elf scout, who when killed, has detailed notes regarding the sanctums that were written by the dwarf ambassador. You return to the one showing the ambassador around and the next quest involves luring him into the building and killing him, with him realizing he was found out and attacking you before you can attack him.

    One mistake though, it was not about land, it was about distrust. The Night Elves don't trust the Blood Elves because they are the Highbourne the Night Elves banished thousands of years ago. They didn't like them as "free-agents" and were scared they were going to do something stupid. They convinced the Alliance to help them infiltrate the Blood Elves so they could keep an eye on them.

    Later on, in both Eversong and Ghostlands, you have to fight Night Elves who started making attack camps, using "Moon Crystals" to spy on the Blood Elves. At one point you even have to attack the main base, which is a small island the Night Elves first landed on.

    This, combined with the formation of the Tranquillian (A partnership of Blood Elves and Forsaken trying to take back the Ghostlands from the Scourge) and the death of the Scourge leader Dar'khan, lead to Lor'thremar putting in an official letter of joining to become part of the Horde. Thrall would "accept" this letter from the blood elf player and officially end the starting zone storyline with the Blood Elves a part of the Horde.
    Last edited by Grocalis; 2012-12-05 at 04:46 PM.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    Honestly it sickens me such a ridiculous story is cannon.
    Let me tell you the story of Garrosh, and how a character that was developing beautifully was turned into Snidely Whiplash.



    That said, there is some REASONABLE explanations we can come up with (they didn't, but lets just come up with assumptions);
    - The Night Elves could have been taking steps to ensure that the Blood Elves did not eventually grow into a powerful, dark magic based society that could lead to the return of the Burning Legion.
    Last edited by Anjerith; 2012-12-05 at 04:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  16. #16
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Putress was denounced as a traitor to the Horde, who moved to put him to death.

    Garithos lived and died a "grand marshal" of the Alliance, and the Alliance has never made any effort to distance themselves from him or his actions. Rommath is the only one who's even mentioned him by name since WC3.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Putress was denounced as a traitor to the Horde, who moved to put him to death.

    Garithos lived and died a "grand marshal" of the Alliance, and the Alliance has never made any effort to distance themselves from him or his actions. Rommath is the only one who's even mentioned him by name since WC3.
    Garithos was given the title "Grand Marshal" because he was the only military commander left in Northern EK. The dude never answered to anybody, he died before that could happen. I'm sure if he did he'd have probably been stripped of his title for his actions.

  18. #18
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Both factions in the end are accountable.

    Garithos was still the defacto leader of the Lordaeron survivors and still a part of the Alliance, however his actions were still not those of his peers so just like Putress the Alliance is not 100% to blame for a leaders actions in such a way.
    It's unclear whether or not Garithos was looked down upon afterwards or vindicated for his efforts to restore Lordaeron as we simply haven't heard anything, my gut feeling is that he was looked down upon and his actions rejected as it should be plainly obvious to anybody on either faction his actions were wrong.

    The Horde's accountability goes further than just Putress' betrayal and further into the Horde's inability to stop the Forsaken from developing a Plague. The Horde could simply not control one of their own peers so they are accountable for the fall out when he revealed his nature and used a weapon that was still commissioned by Sylvanas and should have been stopped.

    It's also worth baring in mind that Varian's anger during the BFUC was mostly due to the experimented bodies and plague ridden state Lordaeron was in of which was not the actions of a traitor but of the Forsaken race.

    Neither in the end answered to anybody of their respective faction and had something wrong in the head that lead to the death of innocents.

  19. #19
    Oh God, I shudder whenever someone tries to say one side is good and the other evil.

    But anyway, Putress was a traitor who gathered fellow forsaken to join his cause with the Legion. Trying to take the city for themselves and eventually summon Sargeras into Azeroth. Varian was too short-sighted to see the fact that the horde suffered just as much at Wrathgate (because aparently the alliance has never had traitors before...).

    Garithos was just a racist ass who used any excuse he had to try and upend the Blood Elves during their latest partnership with the alliance. Later, when Kael uses the help of Vashj to destroy the scourge, he was deemed a traitor for no reason whatsoever and was set to be executed. Then, he escapes, goes to Outland, and the Lorthemar takes over Silvermoon and tries to make ties with the horde, which only happened because Sylvanas wanted to help her people.

    Putress was deemed a traitor straight away while Garithos is still a valiant hero among his people. While, yes, there has to be SOME blame toward Sylvanas for having a Dreadlord siting right next to her for years, seeing as the relationship was not one of trust and honor, that doesn't condemn the entire forsaken race for the actions of a few.
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  20. #20
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Like mentioned, this all happens in the Blood Elf starting zones. You are the one that uncovers the plot when you are sent to investigate why one of the sanctums started spawning arcane elementals that began killing everyone. You go there and stumble on a Night Elf scout, who when killed, has detailed notes regarding the sanctums that were written by the dwarf ambassador. You return to the one showing the ambassador around and the next quest involves luring him into the building and killing him, with him realizing he was found out and attacking you before you can attack him.

    One mistake though, it was not about land, it was about distrust. The Night Elves don't trust the Blood Elves because they are the Highbourne the Night Elves banished thousands of years ago. They didn't like them as "free-agents" and were scared they were going to do something stupid. They convinced the Alliance to help them infiltrate the Blood Elves so they could keep an eye on them.

    Later on, in both Eversong and Ghostlands, you have to fight Night Elves who started making attack camps, using "Moon Crystals" to spy on the Blood Elves. At one point you even have to attack the main base, which is a small island the Night Elves first landed on.

    This, combined with the formation of the Tranquillian (A partnership of Blood Elves and Forsaken trying to take back the Ghostlands from the Scourge) and the death of the Scourge leader Dar'khan, lead to Lor'thremar putting in an official letter of joining to become part of the Horde. Thrall would "accept" this letter from the blood elf player and officially end the starting zone storyline with the Blood Elves a part of the Horde.
    To add to this, the night elves were right. In the time you first leveled through the area, blood elves still followed Kael'thas. You know, Kael'thas who was buddy of Illidan, Kael'thas who brought fel magic to blood elves, Kael'thas who captured a naaru. This was the reality at the time the night elves first landed.

    Later on Kael'thas broke off from the blood elves as a group, but still used their Sunwell to try and summon Kil'jaden. And demons. But by then the night elves who originally came to Ghostlands were long dead.

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