1. #1
    High Overlord Bombercloner's Avatar
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    How bad of a state are MW's really in?

    So our MW has been complaining about how he has been nerfed to the ground, and I have read the notes about it, and I would agree that he was harshly nerfed. we were working on blade lord last night and he was struggling to make it past the first gauntlet. we asked him to focus only on himself and make sure he made it through, but he was always out of mana, even when we asked him to go easy during phase 1, since we were 3 healing it.

    I noticed that he was overhealing like crazy, is this to be expected from any monk?

    here are some logs.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...yze/hd/source/

  2. #2
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombercloner View Post
    So our MW has been complaining about how he has been nerfed to the ground, and I have read the notes about it, and I would agree that he was harshly nerfed. we were working on blade lord last night and he was struggling to make it past the first gauntlet. we asked him to focus only on himself and make sure he made it through, but he was always out of mana, even when we asked him to go easy during phase 1, since we were 3 healing it.

    I noticed that he was overhealing like crazy, is this to be expected from any monk?

    here are some logs.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z...yze/hd/source/
    Our performance revolves entirely around Mana Tea. If you're not getting enough Mana Tea, you're heading for a brick wall, even though we have a couple of abilities that heal with no mana cost.

    I'm noticing a lot of Monks stacking Spirit and Crit like crazy and saying they're having some success. Some people are going to make it work, others are going to reroll. Its going to be interesting seeing Raid numbers this week.

  3. #3
    Keep in mind this week we will see a huge spread of favorable vs unfavorable opinions on the changes. And a huge part of that will be due to the JAB mana cost. Some people either deliberately know (or just happen to) not to use the minor glyph for Jab. The mana cost increase only effects the people that use the glyph. For that reason more than anything, be VERY mindful of what everyone will be saying this week.

    It completely screwballs everything. Some people still have a 9k Jab, and others have 12k!!
    Jabweaver opinion = YMMV x infinity

    //smacks forehead.

  4. #4
    It's...bad. We aren't useless, but our strengths have been blasted and our weaknesses unaddressed. All on top of the playstyle being neutered to rather boring levels. I'm passing on gear that anyone else needs until my priest is caught up to the content we are on.

  5. #5
    Improper use of mana tea is quite clearly the root of the problem here. His mana return is consistently a lot lower than what it could be based on the stacks of mana tea generated. In an extreme case (try 2, 8:11) he generated 21 leafs, which would ideally add (assuming glyphed, thus increments of 2) 20 * 0,04 * 300.000 = 240.000 mana. Instead, he gained only 72.000. It gets better towards later tries but he still consistently only gets about half the mana returned that he could be getting based on the leafs. His leaf generation is also very low, but considering that mana spend on spell -> gain chi -> spend chi -> gain mana from leaf is not a mana-positive cycle, this should only help his mana. He also appears to make 0 use of Fortifying Brew nor Diffuse Magic, which is just plain silly if you have issues surviving the tornado run. This is especially weird since he does use Zen Meditation.

    As far as overhealing goes, expect that to happen when you take 2 disc priests. He should have taken on more of a tank healing role in that setup, but that's not going to do an awful lot either with a paladin tank that barely nets any incoming damage when you factor in the shield and self healing. If I were him I'd just keep up the fistweaver buffs and punch away at the boss for the first part of the fight, and only really contribute to healing for unseen strike.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Themos View Post
    Keep in mind this week we will see a huge spread of favorable vs unfavorable opinions on the changes. And a huge part of that will be due to the JAB mana cost. Some people either deliberately know (or just happen to) not to use the minor glyph for Jab. The mana cost increase only effects the people that use the glyph. For that reason more than anything, be VERY mindful of what everyone will be saying this week.

    It completely screwballs everything. Some people still have a 9k Jab, and others have 12k!!
    Jabweaver opinion = YMMV x infinity

    //smacks forehead.
    Yeah, Jab not being changed is really screwing things up. Most projections were based around Jab getting increased too, and frankly I'm surprised it hasn't been fixed yet. Abuse Jab while it's relatively cheap while you can, I doubt it'll last the week, but until then we have no accurate accounts.

    As for OP's Mistweaver, dude needs to chill out on the AoE heals. Blade Lord is 90% single-target damage between tanks and Wind Step victims, no reason for 70% of his healing to be SCK/Uplift/RM.
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2012-12-04 at 11:02 PM.

  7. #7
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Ditto what Totaltotemic said... your monk is using SCK as their primary chi generator and 66% of it is overheal. He should use jab or soothing mists (or conserve mana), except when there is AoE damage that needs 5+ players being healed (i.e. after an Unseen Strike or in phase 3).

    Also, your Disc Priest used Spirit Shell like 8 times the entire night. He could be doing ridiculously more healing if he casts it more often. Every top disc priest is using it for like 40%+ of their healing and it's not even on his list of biggest heals. Unseen strike is what, 40 second cooldown? At worst, he should use it about 5-10 seconds before every other Unseen Strike and PoH both groups to ensure you take like no damage...

  8. #8
    The Patient Valient's Avatar
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    Monks will overheal, it's pretty unavoidable. Afaik a good amount would be 50-70%, your monk is actually doing close to 120% overhealing, this will take it's toll on mana massively.

    It looks like a combination of things.

    1. He ain't using mana tea properly
    2. His overhealing is out of control
    3. 3 healers seems excessive, on the 8 minutes attempt your healers did 26k hps, 22k hps and 13k hps respectively, those numbers are very low which would suggest there simply isn't enough to heal to justify 3 healers
    4. 2 disc priests on a fight you are taking more healing than needed is going to result in alot of overhealing for you monk.

    I would suggest dropping to 2 healers, you monks effective healing will increase significantly and then all he needs to do is stay on top of mana tea. Also chi torpedo is nice for this fight, it is free to use and can be nice for healing on the run in the last phase. He also only use thunder focus tea once on the 8 minute attempt, this could be alot better and will help keep hot coverage higher for longer and make his uplifts more effective.

  9. #9
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried just healing through healing spheres for 5/ 10mans? :S it's like 6k mana and heals for like 60-120k >.<

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    Has anyone tried just healing through healing spheres for 5/ 10mans? :S it's like 6k mana and heals for like 60-120k >.<
    I actually tried this on 25 man heroic Blade Lord last night, and it turned out that Soothing/Enveloping would end up doing pretty much the same amount of healing for much less mana. Not generating Chi makes Healing Sphere actually cost a lot more mana than it seems.

  11. #11
    Just judging from the logs, I'm pretty sure he's not doing the right thing. Overhealing is rather common for monks especially on spells like Renewing Mist - it mostly ties to mana efficiencies and just the way the spell works. Some of the things he's doing wrong (using your longest fight as basis - 8:11):

    - Spinning Crane Kick is a 25-man spell (mostly), unless you are all stacked there is generally not much reason to use it - it looks like he was using it to generate Chi which seems overkill unless you need it on demand
    - Enveloping Mist not used at all - it was adjusted but it's still a good single target heal and can be a good Chi dump
    - Expel Harm - not used at all, generates Chi, heals yourself, and doesn't cost that much mana
    - Gained 21 stacks of Mana Tea but only used it 3 times, if he has no mana concern he should output more effective heals - additionally you'd want to use it pretty much on CD if you aren't going to waste the mana unless you were saving it for specific mechanics
    - Chi generation seems pretty low - not saying what is standard but as reference, I gained 150 on that fight over 7:41 in heroic mode
    - Tier 2 talent choice - it doesn't look like he's benefiting much from Chi Burst which may be in part with how your raid positions, he can consider other alternatives (e.g. Chi Wave)

  12. #12
    I feel like the overhealing of a monk is some kind of crutch that people are leaning on in many cases. Most healers will overheal by nature of some mechanic. Hots from druids are just as fraught with this, as is the holy priest mastery. Shaman healers as well will see quite a bit of overheal from earthliving weapon and riptide. This is the nature of any hot used in a fight where other healers have time to heal snipe the damage instead of letting the hot do the work.

    On a fight with high enough raid damage to keep healers busy healers in general won't overheal anywhere near as much. This fact is where a seriously good healing team can save alot of mana. If you don't need that person healed asap, you can leave off hitting a direct heal and let existing hots top people up. If you do this more then life is good. Similarly with absorbs, if you know there are absorbs up, then don't push the heals so much.

    The monk mechanic rewards you with chi and for the mana you spend and mana tea for the chi you spend. But aside from ensuring you have the chi to use burst abilities when needed or pre-pare you mist coverage for aoe bursts you don't need to be casting 24/7. Trying to blanket the raid when you know it's just going to be overhealing is just spending mana to get chi to get mana tea to get back the mana you wasted on heals you didnt need to do.

    What i feel when it comes to healing is that many are under very strange misconceptions, and this is why the average healer wasn't someone who could 4 heal heroic ragnaros on 25 man because you simply couldnt waste mana on healing that wasnt needed on that fight. This is also why top guilds can drop a healer to get another dps on tight fights in many cases, because the average healing team needs 6 people to do what a team that doesn't waste mana can do with 5 people, or even 4.

    Overhealing is a TEAM statistic imo, talk with the other healers and ensure that you are all balancing your outputs with what is needed.

    The mistake with mana tea seems to be that taking the glyph is excellent for making it easy to use, but only works out effectively when you are ensuring to use it on cooldown and feeding it enough stacks per use. In your healer's case, he isnt using up his mana tea, but if he had the unglyphed version you can use up as many stacks as you like during a lul if you missed using it earlier.

  13. #13
    fistweaving is a great way to save mana.
    Dont fall behind on mana team.
    Stack spirit+crit (Currently at 9.5 spirit, 6.8k crit, using int food/flask and that works for me at least. ilvl 501 so plenty of int to help with it).
    Don't spam sck/surging mist.
    I also found myself being a lot more stable on mana when i took back Chi Brew instead of ascension, didn't like it at all.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by NotAddicted View Post
    If I were him I'd just keep up the fistweaver buffs and punch away at the boss for the first part of the fight, and only really contribute to healing for unseen strike.
    This is what I did and worked great. Glyph uplift for sub 20% to be able to spam it while moving through tornadoes. Snoozed through first 80% with mostly damaging boss as to start last phase with as much mana as possible and stacks of mana tea as well.

  15. #15
    Brewmaster WskyDK's Avatar
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    I'm pretty unhappy with where I'm at now compared to a week ago. The mana nerfs were needed (but a bit heavy handed)
    My biggest issue is that I'm focusing on meters again since I'm not in the top spot anymore and it's frustrating me. I'm working on remembering that if the boss dies, and we didn't then the heal corps was successful.

  16. #16
    Currently slightly ahead of everyone else (about 1.5% ahead of #2).
    I'm ending fights with zero mana, and zero tea.
    Guild is too terrible to do anything other than normal content.
    No spirit gear - I switched it all out back when the mana was good, and I have no valor/gold to change everything back from int to spirit.
    wedeserverit.jpg

  17. #17
    My group does it with 2 healers (which is better imo since you reduce overhealing immensely).
    Other than that I had 10k-ish spirit pre 5.1. After 5.1 I noticed how I had massive amounts of tea (which restores more mana using the reworked ascension talent, 345k manapool is nice). And my mana was always high thanks to the stacks. So I started replacing spirit steadily with int or crit to find out what would be a decent amount for most fights (Mogushan Vaults and Heart of Fear 10M Normal). So far I'm at 8.6k spirit, but could drop even lower without going tight on manapool.

    Basically you should use different skills that work on the boss you are facing. Use your skillset to it's fullest extent!

    (Edit: Forgot to add that even tho mana-wise I'm fine, I do feel the other nerfs and am falling short on our disc healer most of the time whereas before I would be ahead of him)
    Adding to that the lack of great Raid Utility and the limited use for a monk healer in 10's I'm either going to level another healer of focus on Brewmaster tanking...

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