View Poll Results: Opinions?

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1040. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    629 60.48%
  • No

    328 31.54%
  • Undecided

    83 7.98%
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  1. #741
    Personally, I think that the father should have a say in if they keep the kid or not, but if they choose not to, then HOW they get this done should be up to the mother. It is her body after all and as such, she gets to decide if she wants an abortion or to carry the baby to term and put it up for adoption.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeavline View Post
    I'm not arguing whose right it is to control a fetus. I'm simply saying that the production of one is just as much the woman's fault as the mans.
    Currently it appears that women are clueless in the production part of the pregnancy and are therefor liberated from responsibility on that point.
    It's always the man who's at blame for a pregnancy unwanted or not. Women are so victimized in this aspect that it's becoming disgusting.
    You said it best yourself :
    Without the woman our sperm is simply a stain on the sheets. Why should we bare any responsibility at all for any pregnancy?
    It's so very obvious that it's the woman's choice and right alone to decide whether or not she'll become pregnant, with or without the mans consent.
    I hate to say it (or use this excuse), but the reason why is a cultural thing.

    Men are the "strong" ones. They're the impregnantors of women. Men enjoy sex, not women. If a couple can't get pregnant, it's a woman's failure. These are all things that are slammed into our culture, though a couple of them are being pushed away. Hence when an unplanned pregnancy occurs "well, why didn't the MAN (the strong, impregnating fertile sex-enjoying partner) take care of that!" comes to mind in a committed couple and "stupid slut should find herself a man and not have sex with random guys" comes to mind when it's a single woman.

    No, not everyone will thing these exact things, but a surprising amount will.

    A woman cannot become pregnant alone. However, she gives BIRTH alone. She CARRIES alone. The decision ultimately rests on her even if the man and woman both agree about an abortion because while he could only talk about it SHE decided to go through with it.

  3. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    A lot of what you'll hear is "it's my body, it's my choice"

    And I respectfully disagree. What if the man wanted to be a father? What if he wanted to start a family?
    Then he should be sleeping with like minded individuals.

  4. #744
    Absolutely not. I'm a man and the thought is absolutely absurd. We should have a say in whether or not the woman our stupid ass got pregnant? Not even a little. Her body, our word should only be able to influence her decision, no more.

    However, I think a man should be able to say he has no wish to have the child and therefore loses the responsibilities etc.

    That the majority said yes sickens me. Should a woman have any say in whether or not you get sterilised?

    EDIT: I sorely doubt many sane men want to start a family with an unwilling mother, even if they could make a decision about it.
    I'm not a native English speaker, and yet, I don't suck at English. The argument "English is not my mother tongue" doesn't actually give you an excuse to do so.

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Personally I think 5 child are a handful to handle and would pretty much amount to a full time job. But what do I know, clearly taking care of children doesn't cost time, money and energy, not like paying $300 a month.
    Yes, I have a daughter, and she alone is a handful.

    My point was in relation to responsibility and a woman's right to chose. There's been a lot of discussion on the woman's right to have an abortion (i.e. the father can't stop her) but I thought I'd mention the other side of the equation, when the woman chooses to keep the child (because the father can't force an abortion either).

    In my example, this girl had 5 kids, to 5 different guys. You make it sound like she's the victim here, poor girl alone raising 5 kids. When the reality is she made the same mistake, 5 times... well actually, a lot more than 5 if you count all the times she didn't get pregnant! There's talk of responsibility and the right to choose, well were was the responsibility here?

    Remember I know (knew) this girl personally, so have a bit more insight into this story then some article in the tabloids. She see's her kids as a lottery ticket, which is disgusting.... especially since she was still stripping and dumped the kids on her parents.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2012-12-05 at 07:19 AM.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxiye View Post
    Absolutely not. I'm a man and the thought is absolutely absurd. We should have a say in whether or not the woman our stupid ass got pregnant? Not even a little. Her body, our word should only be able to influence her decision, no more.

    However, I think a man should be able to say he has no wish to have the child and therefore loses the responsibilities etc.

    That the majority said yes sickens me. Should a woman have any say in whether or not you get sterilised?
    The way the actual poll is worded could account for the yes votes. Having a say doesn't mean you dictate, what you described is exactly what having a say would mean. You could read it that 60% of the people voting believe the man should have some influence.

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    A lot of what you'll hear is "it's my body, it's my choice"

    And I respectfully disagree. What if the man wanted to be a father? What if he wanted to start a family?
    Go impregnate someone who is willing to carry a pregnancy to term? Go hire a surrogate mother? You make it sound like it's so hard to get semen from a penis.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Vuljatar View Post
    You deliberately ignore my point over and over again, and take the opportunity to personally insult me at the same time. And you wonder why we think you're a crazy feminazi.

    If the man can't unilaterally abort the fetus that is 50% his, the woman should likewise be unable to abort the fetus that is 50% hers. That's the bottom line here.
    You're ignoring the point that the fetus is part of the woman's body and the man doesn't own any part of it. He contributed part of his genetic code to make it, but that doesn't give him ownership of it. It is 50% his in that half of the genes are of his body.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    In my example, this girl had 5 kids, to 5 different guys. You make it sound like she's the victim here, poor girl alone raising 5 kids. When the reality is she made the same mistake, 5 times... well actually, a lot more than 5 if you count all the times she didn't get pregnant! There's talk of responsibility and the right to choose, well were was the responsibility here? Where was the fathers right to choose?
    I already explained what I think about that. My point is that regardless you still cannot dictate what another person do or does not do with her body. Don't pretend you can possibly have equal rights under an unequal situation.

    Remember I know (knew) this girl personally, so have a bit more insight into this story then some article in the tabloids. She see's her kids as a lottery ticket, which is disgusting.
    A lot of people say this. All I know is that a child cost a fortune to raise and child supports rarely cover half of it.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    I don't know what your point is. Over and over again you just talk about assaulting women.
    I've really had enough of you people. You are so filled with rage and hatred towards men that you have completely ignored all my arguments and explanations, and when I use analogies you tell me that I "cannot comprehend the idea of not attacking women". If you really aren't a misandrist you've done a great job of hiding it in this thread. You might want to take a step back and realize that men are human beings and not just your "vile oppressors". You say I'm strawmanning, but your response to EVERY SINGLE THING is "LOL YOU HATE WOMEN".

    I'm done with your venom, your stupidity, and your insults. Right now, from a legal standpoint, women have all the power and no responsibility. Men have all the responsibility and no power. Enjoy it while it lasts.

  11. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Trolemaster 2012
    I'm not talking about abortion. How was that not clear here? I'm talking about the lack of responsibility put on women when it comes to pre-pregnancy.
    Feminists bring nothing good to women or men. They aren't out for equality, they want the exact same 1940's mindset but in womens favor.
    They bring only shame over the gender and the society we've built. It's not typical to bash them, it's necessary and for very good reasons.

    So what's your problem with allowing women to exercise control over their own body and get abortions? After all that absolves men of whatever, if any, financial burdens of raising the child.
    I'm not against abortion or the woman's right to have one. I'm against the stupidity that got her pregnant in the first place and the contradictions that follows.
    Didn't you read my post at all?
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  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Vuljatar View Post
    I've really had enough of you people. You are so filled with rage and hatred towards men
    Says the person talking about punching pregnant women in the belly and poisoning them.

    You say I'm strawmanning, but your response to EVERY SINGLE THING is "LOL YOU HATE WOMEN".
    Hard to arrive at a different conclusion when all you keep saying is you want to force a woman to carry your stuff inside her. Just because.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Niroshi View Post
    The way the actual poll is worded could account for the yes votes. Having a say doesn't mean you dictate, what you described is exactly what having a say would mean. You could read it that 60% of the people voting believe the man should have some influence.
    We already have that power, is what I meant. Talking to her and trying to get her to reconsider IS and SHOULD be the only power we have.
    I'm not a native English speaker, and yet, I don't suck at English. The argument "English is not my mother tongue" doesn't actually give you an excuse to do so.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Says the person talking about punching pregnant women in the belly and poisoning them.
    Are you trolling me right now or did you really not understand that it was an analogy? Being used in a negative sense? You know, as in something that ISN'T GOOD AND YOU SHOULD NOT DO?!

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeavline View Post
    I'm not talking about abortion. How was that not clear here? I'm talking about the lack of responsibility put on women when it comes to pre-pregnancy.
    I'm not against abortion or the woman's right to have one. I'm against the stupidity that got her pregnant in the first place and the contradictions that follows.
    Didn't you read my post at all?
    So you're not talking about abortion, you just think it's not taking responsibility. I read your post, did you read mine? My point is that having an abortion is a responsible course of action that works out the best for everyone in an unintended pregnancy.


    Feminists bring nothing good to women or men. They aren't out for equality, they want the exact same 1940's mindset but in womens favor.
    They bring only shame over the gender and the society we've built. It's not typical to bash them, it's necessary and for very good reasons.
    Yes yes typical anti-feminist rants. How about you actually give some examples of real feminists trying to do that? Last I checked none of us were campaigning for men be forced to stay at home to be househusbands.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 07:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuljatar View Post
    Are you trolling me right now or did you really not understand that it was an analogy? Being used in a negative sense?
    Do you not understand that I'm pointing out your analogy is critically flawed? Because it involves illegal acts of assault? Fallacy of false analogy, not a hard concept.
    Last edited by semaphore; 2012-12-05 at 07:31 AM.

  16. #756
    I'm sure that I'm not the first person to say this but there are just to many pages to read through, so here it goes. I don't necessarily agree that it's right to make a woman carry to term if they don't want to, but I still think they should if the father wants to take on the sole responsibility of raising the child.

    On the topic I think that a person should be able to sign away ALL and ANY obligations up until abortion is no longer possible, be it mother or father. If a guy isn't ready to be a father he shouldn't get stuck with it just because it's what the woman wants and vice versa. I know, I know, use a condom, take the pill, get snipped. That's all fine and dandy but all of those are NOT 100%. Condoms break, pills can fail and a vasectomy can reverse itself (rare, but it does happen)

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    I already explained what I think about that. My point is that regardless you still cannot dictate what another person do or does not do with her body. Don't pretend you can possibly have equal rights under an unequal situation.
    I'm not trying to dictate it. Nor am I campaigning for equal rights, infact, I'm quite against equal rights because men and woman are not equal. Feminists onyl want equality when it suits them, yet demand special treatment when it doesn't. Personally, I agree with the latter, which is why I do lean more towards the woman's right to chose rather than the father's rights as a genetic donor.

    However, I do believe absolute control is a dangerous thing. You can't adopt a baby overnight, and nor (imo) should you be able to abort one. I'm not saying the women should be prevented from doing so, but I do believe there should be counseling and consultation, especially if she's a 'repeat customer'. To what end would the counseling result? I honestly can't say.

    A lot of people say this. All I know is that a child cost a fortune to raise and child supports rarely cover half of it.
    Well I suppose it depends where you live (country). In my country, there's A LOT of benefits. When my daughter was born, I applied for what's called a working for families tax credit, which is essentially a portion of my tax is returned to me monthly to help with child costs. The higher your income, the lower (dollar) amount you receive, eventually reducing to zero.

    When my wife returned to work, our tax credit vanished, but we were able to apply for childcare subsidies. She works 30 hours a week, and after paying for childcare I think we're about $50 a week better off than when she was a stay home Mum. If we pumped out another child, our tax credit would have more than doubled. If we weren't married, and lived apart, the amount of benefits she could claim is staggering... and that's before child support.

    Bit of a long winded response I know, but it's something that gets on my nerves here. Staying at home, on the benefit, pumping out kids pays off, especially if you're an "unskilled" worker shall we say. The girl I mentioned above, was earning six figures (2K + per week) from the combination of child support of benefits.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    A typical child support payment covers less than half of the average expenses required to actually raise a child.
    Really, because as a full grown adult I spend less than $200 a month on food and less than $300 a year on clothing which still equates to less than 3k a year.

    I fully understand it takes more to raise a infant due to diapers and other crap that must be provided for a baby but hey shouldn't your financial contribution to the child be equal to mine.

    And you cannot burden the father with the medical fee's the child incurs either
    "because you are the one who opted to seek the medical attention in the first place" (not to mention majority of the time it's not actually required) Nor would it ever be required if you had chosen abortion and men are sick and tired of being saddled with the repercussions of your mistakes.

    Of course I myself don't have to worry about it as the first thing I did when I hit adulthood was to go and get a vasectomy, and should I ever actually find a women I love and settle down with her I've always got the option to have the Vasectomy reversed, I did so because I am a responsible person living in a world full of people of both genders who refuse to take responsibility for their actions and always try to pin that responsibility on someone else.

  19. #759
    If a woman says she's on the pill, but then she isn't.. or cases alike, then father should definately be able to force abortion..
    *English isn't my main language*

  20. #760
    Do you not understand that I'm pointing out your analogy is critically flawed? Because it involves illegal acts of assault?
    You are not pointing out that my analogy is "critically flawed". You are attacking me and insulting me, which is just pathetic and despicable. You can't even grasp the concept of civil discussion.

    Since your reaction to analogies is not unlike that of a rabid dog, I will simply ask you this: You have said over and over that getting an abortion is "the responsible thing to do" and that it is "best for everyone". Well, what if the mother doesn't want an abortion? If she wants to keep the fetus, to let it grow into a baby, would the "responsible thing to do" be forcing her to get an abortion against her will? I certainly don't think so, in fact I find the idea repulsive. You see, to a parent who wants to keep the fetus, it is more than just a fetus. It is their future child. And the idea that someone, anyone, would have no right to stop someone who wanted to kill their future child is just awful.

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