View Poll Results: Opinions?

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  • Yes

    629 60.48%
  • No

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  • Undecided

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  1. #1761
    Quote Originally Posted by Seirith View Post
    Uh what does that have to do with my post at all? Also how is that in any way a constructive answer to what I said?
    There is no constructive answer for "I don't use abortion as birth control NOW but I totally would, should the opportunity arise."
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh would you now? It truly is amazing how many heroic people we have wasting their time on internet.

  2. #1762
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    There is no constructive answer for "I don't use abortion as birth control NOW but I totally would, should the opportunity arise."
    I am not using abortion as birth control. I use an IUD as birth control and before that I used the pill and condoms. If that birth control failed, yes I would have an abortion. It is not like I have sex every day and go birth control? nah I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant! I actively try to prevent pregnancy by having an IUD and seeing my gyno twice a year.

    I am not on a "high horse".

  3. #1763
    Quote Originally Posted by Seirith View Post
    I am not using abortion as birth control. I use an IUD as birth control and before that I used the pill and condoms. If that birth control failed, yes I would have an abortion. It is not like I have sex every day and go birth control? nah I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant! I actively try to prevent pregnancy by having an IUD and seeing my gyno twice a year.

    I am not on a "high horse".
    Then surely your gyno has told you that NO method of birth control is 100% effective. You're using it as a backup plan for no other reason than "I don't want to".
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    If I was in his boots (and forced to join the SS in 1939 or whenever he joined), I would have tried to liberate the camp myself or die trying. He did not. He traded his life for the life of thousands of people, thus he should face the consequences
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh would you now? It truly is amazing how many heroic people we have wasting their time on internet.

  4. #1764
    Bloodsail Admiral caninepawprints's Avatar
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    If the would-be father is in a long-term relationship with the woman, then I believe he should have a say in it, but the woman has the final say (she is, after all, the person who has to deal with the long-term affects of pregnancy and childbirth).

    If the man isn't in a long-term relationship with the woman, then all bets are off and it's her choice altogether.

    Image created by Brienna

  5. #1765
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    Then surely your gyno has told you that NO method of birth control is 100% effective. You're using it as a backup plan for no other reason than "I don't want to".
    So you think that abortion is worse than making two people have a child they don't want? I could give it up and allow it to join the other 250,000+ children in the foster care system or the 100,000+ of all ages that are waiting to be adopted. ( http://www.adoptuskids.org/meet-the-children)

  6. #1766
    Field Marshal Elyssia's Avatar
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    what get's me about discussions like this is that you could never force a woman to bear a child against their will, it's unsafe for the child.
    if the woman doesn't respect her pregnancy she could be drinking or doing drugs or other activities that could harm the child...

    and even if the woman is very respectful of the child's health in that situation, what happens ( gawd forbid ) the mother dies in child birth after being forced to carry this child to term? should the father be held liable, i certainly think so.

  7. #1767
    Brewmaster Marxman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaztes View Post
    Both want it? Great
    Both do not want it? Great

    Mother wants it but the father does not? He should not be hung up on 18 years of payment and the mother should be able to care for her child alone.

    Father wants it? Well here is where I'd say the mother still decides at this point. The man cannot demand the woman to go through pregnancy.
    100% agree with all of this.

  8. #1768
    Quote Originally Posted by caninepawprints View Post
    If the would-be father is in a long-term relationship with the woman, then I believe he should have a say in it, but the woman has the final say (she is, after all, the person who has to deal with the long-term affects of pregnancy and childbirth).

    If the man isn't in a long-term relationship with the woman, then all bets are off and it's her choice altogether.
    Not having the final say is ultimately the same as having no say though. The woman makes the decision, if you agree, there is no issue, if you can sway her to your opinion, it doesn't matter what your opinion legally counts as, she is going to share it after you convince her. If you can't, her decision overrules yours. Men "should" have a say, but they can't at the moment because we don't have a way to give them a say without infringing upon the woman's rights, so they don't.

  9. #1769
    Not having the final say is ultimately the same as having no say though.
    its really not. You have a variety of options to avoid having a child as a man. Just because a woman can abort does not mean you don't have decisions you can make with consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #1770
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    its really not. You have a variety of options to avoid having a child as a man. Just because a woman can abort does not mean you don't have decisions you can make with consequences.
    Given that one can take reasonable precautions against causing a pregnancy and still end up in that situation, I fail to see how those options are relevant. Regardless of the precautions you can take, men get no say. There is a perfectly valid reason why they get no say, but it is a lot more condescending to say their opinion counts but not as much as the woman's than it is to say their opinion doesn't count because it would infringe upon the woman's rights.

    If your opinion can be shown to have zero effect on the outcome of a decision, then you have no say, lets not pretend otherwise.

  11. #1771
    Options don't have to be foolproof to be options. You even have fool proof (or close enough to it). You have ways to avoid unwanted children. Just because a woman can abort doesn't mean you're suddenly absolved of the responsibilities those choices entail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  12. #1772
    Bloodsail Admiral bekilrwale's Avatar
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    No, the woman should have the ultimate say over her own body. If the woman does want to have it but the man does not, I think the man should be exempt from any sort of legal/financial obligation to the child and mother.
    "Death is not kind. It's dark, black as far as you can see, and you're all alone."

  13. #1773
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Options don't have to be foolproof to be options. You even have fool proof (or close enough to it). You have ways to avoid unwanted children. Just because a woman can abort doesn't mean you're suddenly absolved of the responsibilities those choices entail.
    If we're going to play the personal responsibility card, then the woman's responsibility as the decision maker about the abortion should trump the man's. If she chooses to keep a baby she should do so with the full knowledge that she will be supporting and raising that child without assistance if the man does not want the child as well, she should not get to factor that she can extort financing from her partner into her decision making process. Her body, her choice, her consequences.

  14. #1774
    Again, its not just her choices. You have choices as well. Unless your parents really skipped on the birds and the bees conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  15. #1775
    See the main issue here is when one parent wants to keep the child and the other does not. Furthermore, I personally believe that abortion and many laws in general are created to protect society. Hence, let us evaluate both situations:

    1. When the father has a say about abortion and mother doesn’t:

    Usually what happens in these situations, especially among young women, is that a percentage of women end up finding ways of getting what they want on their own. Not only do they end up getting an abortion, whether the law allows it or not, they end up hurting themselves and even hurting their chances of getting pregnant in future.

    Many women go through severe depression after having a child, it is normal. In addition, add the fact that she does not want the child and the toll of pregnancy on her body. Most males do not really realize that they are fathers until they hold their baby. Most women realize that they are mothers the moment they get pregnant. Furthermore, do not underestimate the emotional and physical toll a pregnancy can hold. I have never had an abortion but I was unfortunate enough to experience a miss miss carriage. Watching your baby come out of you in pieces over a period of 2 weeks is not something I would wish even on my worst enemy.

    2. When the mother has a say about abortion and father doesn’t:

    I have heard this saying a lot, “Most women are emotional, and most men are logical”. As a psychologist, I can confirm from my experience in most situations that women have a harder time than men do when it comes to losing a child. Maybe it is because some men are not good at expressing their feelings or that I can relate more to women. The majority of men end up moving on and just having more children. The thing is, men are designed In a way to spread their seeds, most men will have as many children as they can if every child can live an amazing life and have everything they need. Unfortunately, that is not possible so they end up having less children to be able to protect them and give them their best chances at a good life (at least this is true for smart sane men).

    Women are different, they have to go through what they call down time when they are pregnant (parental investment) Meaning that they cannot get pregnant while they are carrying a baby. That pretty much explains most interactions between males and females and explains why mother nature or god made it much harder for a mother to give up a child than a father in most cases.

    It is much and I mean much easier for a mother to take care of a new born than it is for a father. Even though she just had to go through pregnancy and birth, because that is how Mother Nature, god, or the universe intend it to be.

    3. When both parents aren’t allowed to choose whether they want an abortion or not:

    Main issue here is that many children end up tossed away, or end up living a bad life. Society ends up getting more criminals, uneducated bad people, and much more poor people. How can you expect parents who never wanted a child to actually bother with raising that child or spending most of their money on that child?

  16. #1776
    Dreadlord Drekker17's Avatar
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    No it should only be the moms choice because it's part of her body. I mean if one parent wants to keep it and the other doesn't, what are you suppose to do? The keep it vote gets higher precedence, the kill it vote gets higher precedence...even if we pretended men have an equal say about abortion when the above situation occurs most courts will say the woman's choice should be higher because she has a higher investment in whatever will happen.
    I'm going to super rich one day, remember my face!!!

  17. #1777
    oh I forgot to mention one other thing:

    Why do we allow women to go through with abortion and not include the father In final say?

    1. Because like I said before a percentage of women will end up finding different ways of getting an abortion on their own (hurting themselves and baby in process); even if the law does not allow it or worse commit suicide (which is actually a pretty high risk in countries that do not allow abortion. Moreover, end both of their lives).

    2. It is extremely unlikely for a male to force a woman into an illegal abnormal abortion just because he does not want a child. Furthermore, it is unlikely for a male to commit suicide just because he is going to be a father even if it is for a child he does not want.

    3. If possible, society would like to limit the number of abortions. Furthermore, permitting males to choose whether a women should go through with her abortion would:

    a. Increase the number of abortions.

    b. Force a female to get abortion by abducting her and forcefully removing a child from her. However, Society would never accept that. You would also have to deal with many mothers leaving the country.

    c. Mothers are statistically less likely to give up children (according to all studies). By giving mothers, the choice you decrease the number of abortions and make sure it is a last resort in most situations.

    4. By authorizing the male partner a get out card, you may force her hand to go through with the abortion, and society would like to prevent that. Also, it is usually more harmful to society when the father chooses not to support his children.

  18. #1778
    Quote Originally Posted by Priestiality View Post
    It's entirely fair. That's the situation. As much as most men are loathe to admit it, many see their penis as a weapon, in a war of the sexes. "I have this masculine hard thing, you have a soft inverted thing, clearly mine is far more powerful, useful and meaningful." But as I stated, men can have a say when they can carry the baby. They don't deal with the hormones and the fucked up dreams and the post-partum depression. When they do, they can have a say in abortion. Until that happens, just stfu, it's not YOUR decision because YOU don't have to deal with the consequences until the baby is born.
    And once that happens its your responsibility for 18+ years?

    I dont buy it.

  19. #1779
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    And once that happens its your responsibility for 18+ years?

    I dont buy it.
    It's still the woman's responsibility, much more so if she's getting minimal support from the father. Her responsibility and money don't magically disappear because someone is also paying.

  20. #1780
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    It's still the woman's responsibility, much more so if she's getting minimal support from the father. Her responsibility and money don't magically disappear because someone is also paying.
    Who gives a shit? She had the opportunity to abort the kid. If the father never wanted it, he shouldn't be obliged to finance it.

    "Her body, her choice."

    That applies to decisions related to her body. Not the man's life.

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