View Poll Results: Opinions?

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  • Yes

    629 60.48%
  • No

    328 31.54%
  • Undecided

    83 7.98%
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  1. #1801
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    No one is suggesting she should be forced to get an abortion.

    All we're saying is that she should have to take his wishes seriously when considering it. "Oh you're not going to be there for the kid? That's fine I'll still garnish your check." is not an acceptable amount of consideration.
    It's garnished directly for 18 years or indirectly for their whole life, as well as for THEIR kids, for a good deal of single mothers through taxes.

    A parent can't raise a kid on their own. So either more food stamps, more grants, more whatever they can get to help from the government, or the guy steps up and helps his kid out. It's a shitty situation, but, as I said, it's an inherently inequal situation. Even the idea of a man's legal abortion that's been floating around is so open to abuse by men simply because they can't get pregnant and "aborting" for them doesn't carry any of the risks (emotional or physical) for women and only the benefits.

  2. #1802
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    It's garnished directly for 18 years or indirectly for their whole life, as well as for THEIR kids, for a good deal of single mothers through taxes.

    A parent can't raise a kid on their own. So either more food stamps, more grants, more whatever they can get to help from the government, or the guy steps up and helps his kid out. It's a shitty situation, but, as I said, it's an inherently inequal situation. Even the idea of a man's legal abortion that's been floating around is so open to abuse by men simply because they can't get pregnant and "aborting" for them doesn't carry any of the risks (emotional or physical) for women and only the benefits.
    You're still missing the goddamn point.

    The man never wanted the kid. She had it contrary to his feelings on the matter. It was entirely her decision that she's forcing him to pay for. that is, in no way, ethical.

  3. #1803
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You're still missing the goddamn point.

    The man never wanted the kid. She had it contrary to his feelings on the matter. It was entirely her decision that she's forcing him to pay for. that is, in no way, ethical.
    No, I get the point.

    It's just that it's not that simple. Yes, HIS wishes weren't taken into account. But if she gets an abortion, then HER wishes/ feelings aren't taken into account. If she doesn't have him pay any child support he's STILL technically paying child support through taxes and welfare programs, but it's a lot less direct and leads to a much shittier situation for the kid. I know, you don't care about the kid's well being because it "shouldn't" have been born, but it's not so simple as shouldn't have been when you're talking about extremely heavy decisions like abortion. She could also give it up for adoption, I suppose, but that tends to be hard for most women. Not that it doesn't happen, of course.

  4. #1804
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    That's not a humble opinion, it's an arrogant, selfish, immoral opinion.
    I must say you countered that arrogant and selfish opinion with a very humble and unselfish argument. Good job on shooting yourself in the foot

  5. #1805
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    You're still missing the goddamn point.

    The man never wanted the kid. She had it contrary to his feelings on the matter. It was entirely her decision that she's forcing him to pay for. that is, in no way, ethical.
    Again, you are the one who does not seem to understand. It does not matter whether you think it’s unfair, unethical, etc. It is overall better for society as whole when both parents support and take care of a child; and it will never change. Deal with it.

  6. #1806
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    meone to raise a kid on their own because you wanted them to get an abortion and don't want to pay is only going to make the child suffer. The parent won't suffer as much - it's the kid going to a worse school, living in a worse area, getting stuck in a worse place... in other words, getting stuck in being poor and creating more for other people to pay for, in addition to having paid for them to be raised like that.
    No, I get what you are saying but it is flat out bogus and wrong.

    I was abused, neglected, by my father until 13. Then just neglected by my mother from then. Until I turned 16 and went to Juve.

    My parents were shitty, not because of anything else. My mother had it rough. Worse then I did for sure, but not by much. My father came from a wealthy family and was raised pretty well. When I was born it went down hill. He didn't want me, at all. Asked my mother for an abortion, in which she chose not too.

    I was abused by that man until he left and cheated on my mother. My mother let it happen, because she made shitty decisions, that allowed me to even get here. Then because she "made her bed", A real quote by the way, she never had the balls to leave him, even though, she knew he was abusive, neglectful, and plain ass hated his children.

    So I had to suffer, because of what you want to happen.

    This is the way it is for a lot of reasons. Sex doesn't equate child rearing at all. That needs to stop. Forcing decisions on people is worse for society overall and we will not agree on this subject.

  7. #1807
    Quote Originally Posted by mischa23v View Post
    Again, you are the one who does not seem to understand. It does not matter whether you think it’s unfair, unethical, etc. It is overall better for society as whole when both parents support and take care of a child; and it will never change. Deal with it.
    It'll change. Eventually it'll change.

  8. #1808
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    No, I get what you are saying but it is flat out bogus and wrong.

    I was abused, neglected, by my father until 13. Then just neglected by my mother from then. Until I turned 16 and went to Juve.

    My parents were shitty, not because of anything else. My mother had it rough. Worse then I did for sure, but not by much. My father came from a wealthy family and was raised pretty well. When I was born it went down hill. He didn't want me, at all. Asked my mother for an abortion, in which she chose not too.

    I was abused by that man until he left and cheated on my mother. My mother let it happen, because she made shitty decisions, that allowed me to even get here. Then because she "made her bed", A real quote by the way, she never had the balls to leave him, even though, she knew he was abusive, neglectful, and plain ass hated his children.

    So I had to suffer, because of what you want to happen.

    This is the way it is for a lot of reasons. Sex doesn't equate child rearing at all. That needs to stop. Forcing decisions on people is worse for society overall and we will not agree on this subject.
    ...because of what I don't want to happen?

    Abortions? I'm fine with people getting abortions, as long as it's their decision and not someone else's.
    Kids being born? Same as above.

    But by parent not suffering as much, I mean that their mandatory education is done and set - being poor late in life doesn't send you to a ghetto school if you were wealthy. But it will send the kid there. Which will hurt their future prospects, which was my point.

  9. #1809
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    snip.
    That is flat out bullshit and you know it.

    The reason our school system is the way it is, to let the cream rise to the top. If you give a damn about anything, then those people will make themselves known.

    Good people will do the right thing, regardless of upbringing, social status, or religious background. People make their own decisions. If you choose to act "thug" in the ghetto, that is your own fault. People are hardwired to be who they are despite everything that is set against us.

    If you fail, it's because you fail. There are very few excuses and being a single parent isn't one of them.

  10. #1810
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    That is flat out bullshit and you know it.

    The reason our school system is the way it is, to let the cream rise to the top. If you give a damn about anything, then those people will make themselves known.

    Good people will do the right thing, regardless of upbringing, social status, or religious background. People make their own decisions. If you choose to act "thug" in the ghetto, that is your own fault. People are hardwired to be who they are despite everything that is set against us.

    If you fail, it's because you fail. There are very few excuses and being a single parent isn't one of them.
    Not having money is an excuse. The stories of people that came out of nowhere and became rich are either exceptionally driven, exceptionally talented, or both.

    Poorer schools means less money. Meaning fewer teachers. Older teacher materials. A lack of teaching materials. A single parent means they're probably working two jobs, especially if they get no support, and can't help with homework if the kid needs it, or just be there.

    "Good people" are a result of environment AND upbringing. Raise a kid in a certain environment then demand they act as though they were raise din one entirely alien isn't going to work - at most it'll be a blend, or behavior in one area but not the other.

  11. #1811
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    No, I get what you are saying but it is flat out bogus and wrong.

    I was abused, neglected, by my father until 13. Then just neglected by my mother from then. Until I turned 16 and went to Juve.

    My parents were shitty, not because of anything else. My mother had it rough. Worse then I did for sure, but not by much. My father came from a wealthy family and was raised pretty well. When I was born it went down hill. He didn't want me, at all. Asked my mother for an abortion, in which she chose not too.

    I was abused by that man until he left and cheated on my mother. My mother let it happen, because she made shitty decisions, that allowed me to even get here. Then because she "made her bed", A real quote by the way, she never had the balls to leave him, even though, she knew he was abusive, neglectful, and plain ass hated his children.

    So I had to suffer, because of what you want to happen.

    This is the way it is for a lot of reasons. Sex doesn't equate child rearing at all. That needs to stop. Forcing decisions on people is worse for society overall and we will not agree on this subject.
    Let us assume that you did not make this story up just for the sake of this argument, you cannot blame me for thinking that when you have 951 posts. Especially, since I do not know you.

    Let us assume your father was a bad person, but your mother was an amazing mother and did everything in her power to give you the best life she can. In your personal opinion, do you believe society should help the mother out by making the father support her in raising you (the child) financially because he would not if he had a choice? Even though he is going to neglect the child and ignore him and not be part of his life. If she can give him an amazing life and be an amazing mother.

    What should we do when both parents are bad? Yet the mother strongly fights to keep her child. We as society have no right to assume that she will be a bad mother and take that child away. Unfortunately, all society can do is hope that majority are good mothers and hope for the best. What if the mother turns out to be amazing and the child lives a happy amazing life. Do you truly believe that we should force this amazing mother to give up the child just because the father does not want it?

    You had the misfortune of having 2 bad parents, and I’m truly deeply sorry you had to go through all that. However, do you truly believe we should punish good parents because there are bad parents out there?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 10:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    That is flat out bullshit and you know it.

    The reason our school system is the way it is, to let the cream rise to the top. If you give a damn about anything, then those people will make themselves known.

    Good people will do the right thing, regardless of upbringing, social status, or religious background. People make their own decisions. If you choose to act "thug" in the ghetto, that is your own fault. People are hardwired to be who they are despite everything that is set against us.

    If you fail, it's because you fail. There are very few excuses and being a single parent isn't one of them.
    There is a famous story in psychology, 2 monozygotic twins (exact twins that were separated at birth). It was amazing because they had the same views on politics; they would watch the same shows laugh the same way and had almost exact similar personalities.
    One twin was lucky enough to live with his homeless father. The father ended up getting some money and sending his son to a good private school and later attended Yale University (he lead a good life and became a professor there).

    The other twin had misfortune of living with his mother in a bad neighborhood. (they lived in studio and his mother would kick him out of house when she wanted to be intimate with her boyfriends. He claimed that sometimes she did not care if he was there). The second twin ended up getting abused by his mother’s multiple boyfriends and getting into drugs because he hated being home. Not to mention, the fact that everyone around him was into drugs because that is how the neighborhood was. The story was famous because they are one of few monozygotic twins that were separated just after birth. Thus, scientists can use this for the whole nature vs. nurture argument.
    Last edited by mischa23v; 2012-12-08 at 10:51 AM.

  12. #1812
    Quote Originally Posted by mischa23v View Post
    Let us assume that you did not make this story up just for the sake of this argument, you cannot blame me for thinking that when you have 951 posts. Especially, since I do not know you.

    Let us assume your father was a bad person, but your mother was an amazing mother and did everything in her power to give you the best life she can. In your personal opinion, do you believe society should help the mother out by making the father support her in raising you (the child) financially because he would not if he had a choice? Even though he is going to neglect the child and ignore him and not be part of his life. If she can give him an amazing life and be an amazing mother.

    What should we do when both parents are bad? Yet the mother strongly fights to keep her child. We as society have no right to assume that she will be a bad mother and take that child away. Unfortunately, all society can do is hope that majority are good mothers and hope for the best. What if the mother turns out to be amazing and the child lives a happy amazing life. Do you truly believe that we should force this amazing mother to give up the child just because the father does not want it?

    You had the misfortune of having 2 bad parents, and I’m truly deeply sorry you had to go through all that. However, do you truly believe we should punish good parents because there are bad parents out there?
    None of that matters.

    Good parents will be good parents with or without money. You can say that singular if you want.

    No, I don't believe in making the father pay. For the first of many reasons, it gives a Mother an excuse. No excuses should be given for bad decisions. If you cannot raise a child without the fathers help, then keep your fucking legs closed.

    Letting society back up mothers for bad decisions is awful. In my opinion, if the state quit forcing fathers to pay, then you'd see a drastic decrease in unwanted pregnancies. As then the mother, would either abort, or have to raise someone alone.

    It might make women a bit more choosey who they let in the sack. If women wants to be solely responsible on birthing a child, then why not make them solely responsible for rearing it? If men are nothing but sperm donors, by law, other then child support. Do you not feel that is a bit lop-sided? I feel any reasonable person can see it that way.

    It not fair all around, even male children of statutory rape are held on child support.

    The issue is deep seated and very much uneven on male rights. Society isn't helping and are raising young women to believe pregnancy that it "has to be that way". It's flat out disgusting.

  13. #1813
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mischa23v View Post
    Again, you are the one who does not seem to understand. It does not matter whether you think it’s unfair, unethical, etc. It is overall better for society as whole when both parents support and take care of a child; and it will never change. Deal with it.
    But only one parent is caring for the child. Both parents are supporting it but only one gets a say in how it's raised, the other just has to fund it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  14. #1814
    I'm male, and pro-life myself, but my general view of the subject is if the woman can decide to abort the baby without any say given to the father, than the father also has the right to financially and custodially "abort" the child as well and forfeit all rights and responsibilities for said child.

    I don't agree with a man abandoning a child he fathered, but I also don't agree with a woman killing a baby with no care for the other concerned party as well.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

  15. #1815
    Quote Originally Posted by mischa23v View Post
    There is a famous story in psychology, 2 monozygotic twins (exact twins that were separated at birth). It was amazing because they had the same views on politics; they would watch the same shows laugh the same way and had almost exact similar personalities.
    One twin was lucky enough to live with his homeless father. The father ended up getting some money and sending his son to a good private school and later attended Yale University (he lead a good life and became a professor there).

    The other twin had misfortune of living with his mother in a bad neighborhood. (they lived in studio and his mother would kick him out of house when she wanted to be intimate with her boyfriends. He claimed that sometimes she did not care if he was there). The second twin ended up getting abused by his mother’s multiple boyfriends and getting into drugs because he hated being home. Not to mention, the fact that everyone around him was into drugs because that is how the neighborhood was. The story was famous because they are one of few monozygotic twins that were separated just after birth. Thus, scientists can use this for the whole nature vs. nurture argument.

    So drug addicts can't be good people? Nice knowing you are on that high horse. So you still didn't address, that good people will do good things. All you toted was a comparison to drug addicts to non-addicts in an environment. Yeah, big surprise, an abused and neglected person turns to drugs. Strawman it up.

    So explain to me, how being a drug addict dictates intention? Their are many alcoholic or addicted parents that still take care of and love their children. In actuality, there are more cases of "working" or "functioning" addicts then there are of extreme cases of neglect.

    All this story compares to me, how a loving family is more important than money.

    Take away the abuse and neglect, but keep latter poor, and we'd have a different story to tell. Two twins separated at birth, ended up at Yale despite being from different economic backgrounds.

    I mean what's the point of your story in comparison to good people? Because I fail to see how being a drug addict somehow eliminates you from being a good person. I could also post a story that conflict with yours and will.

    Twins are still different people.

    I think it just reaffirms for me that a loving and caring family is far more important than money.

  16. #1816
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    Have a say?

    As in be able to voice his opinion - sure
    As to have any legal right to decide in it - hell no

    Fucking basic human rights explains it pretty easily as well.
    Russia isn't afraid of US dude. That's why they are sending their bombers like 60km out of your shores. Infact they give 0 fucks. They know you wont dare to touch them.

  17. #1817
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Again, its not just her choices. You have choices as well. Unless your parents really skipped on the birds and the bees conversation.
    And once again, I am not talking about choices regarding contraception, I am talking about choices regarding abortion. You can make totally reasonable choices regarding contraception and she can still end up with a child you don't want. What happens to that child is her choice. In that circumstance, she should bear the full and sole consequences of that choice, as she has full and sole control of the outcome. This is not a difficult concept to understand. Her body, her choices, her consequences.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by mischa23v View Post
    Again, you are the one who does not seem to understand. It does not matter whether you think it’s unfair, unethical, etc. It is overall better for society as whole when both parents support and take care of a child; and it will never change. Deal with it.
    Its overall better for society if women don't give birth to children they can't afford. That is a decision far fewer of them would undertake if they didn't know they could compel another human being to help finance their choice.
    Last edited by DisposableHero; 2012-12-08 at 02:22 PM.

  18. #1818
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    It's garnished directly for 18 years or indirectly for their whole life, as well as for THEIR kids, for a good deal of single mothers through taxes.

    A parent can't raise a kid on their own. So either more food stamps, more grants, more whatever they can get to help from the government, or the guy steps up and helps his kid out. It's a shitty situation, but, as I said, it's an inherently inequal situation. Even the idea of a man's legal abortion that's been floating around is so open to abuse by men simply because they can't get pregnant and "aborting" for them doesn't carry any of the risks (emotional or physical) for women and only the benefits.
    Bullshit, my mother died when I was 2 and my father managed just fine. It wasnt easy for either of us I suppose, I would get dropped off at a daycare centre at 7am and picked up around 5pm, but he was able to work and look after me, during the summer holidays I spent time with my cousins. Even better, my dad remarried and had another child, the women then decided one day she wasnt happy and just left, my dad had to pay child support. That was great for me! Suddenly we had even less money around and all the school trips my friends were going on I wasnt going on, dont talk shit about how it makes it better for everyone. That shit didnt make our life any better at all, I didnt see anyone giving my dad money when he was raising me, but the minute then woman leaves and takes a child with her its suddenly my dads responsibility to pay?

    There is nothing fair in that system, to anyone.
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  19. #1819
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    A parent can't raise a kid on their own
    Maybe not in your country but over here they can.
    Russia isn't afraid of US dude. That's why they are sending their bombers like 60km out of your shores. Infact they give 0 fucks. They know you wont dare to touch them.

  20. #1820
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    None of that matters.

    Good parents will be good parents with or without money. You can say that singular if you want.

    No, I don't believe in making the father pay. For the first of many reasons, it gives a Mother an excuse. No excuses should be given for bad decisions. If you cannot raise a child without the fathers help, then keep your fucking legs closed.

    Letting society back up mothers for bad decisions is awful. In my opinion, if the state quit forcing fathers to pay, then you'd see a drastic decrease in unwanted pregnancies. As then the mother, would either abort, or have to raise someone alone.

    It might make women a bit more choosey who they let in the sack. If women wants to be solely responsible on birthing a child, then why not make them solely responsible for rearing it? If men are nothing but sperm donors, by law, other then child support. Do you not feel that is a bit lop-sided? I feel any reasonable person can see it that way.

    It not fair all around, even male children of statutory rape are held on child support.

    The issue is deep seated and very much uneven on male rights. Society isn't helping and are raising young women to believe pregnancy that it "has to be that way". It's flat out disgusting.
    That is deep right there.
    Mean that I real deep because no where in this entire post does the any of the blame go to the second party the man.

    This post makes a good argument for women going back to "No sex before marriage" way of thinking. No excuses should be given for bad decisions which is true and since we know that sex leads to kids the best decision would be for a woman to wait until she is in a stable and financially secure relationship before engaging in sex which for the most part means marriage. And the woman needs to make sure that the man is on the same page as the woman when it comes to having children. Because if you want children and he does not it is a bad decision to have sex with him and a woman should leave him for greener pastures.

    Now a few women do want to be single parents can afford it so they are good. But lucky for men they are lots of sex toys, dolls, and sometime soon a sex robot for them to use until either they get married or find a woman that is okay with being a single mom.

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