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  1. #1
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    [Talents] Nether Tempest Haste for Extra Ticks

    Just out of curiosity what's the various haste required for extra NT ticks?

    I'm assuming it works like other DoT's where you get to a certain haste rating and you get an extra tick.
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  2. #2
    This, and how viable is frost with NT compared to other bombs?

  3. #3
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    This, and how viable is frost with NT compared to other bombs?
    NT is supposed to be used with frost. Frost bomb is only viable for frost on wind lord or if you are fighting a patchwerk fight and you have RoY and EoT as your trinkets.

    The frost guide isn't very clear on what bomb to use and could probably use some clarification for simplicity.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-12-05 at 03:24 AM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    NT is supposed to be used with frost. Frost bomb is only viable for frost on wind lord or if you are fighting a patchwerk fight and you have RoY and EoT as your trinkets.

    The frost guide isn't very clear on what bomb to use and could probably use some clarification for simplicity.
    Almost every post out there tells me to pick frost bomb...I just can't help but feel NT would be better unless big AoE fights. I'm only lvl 84 though...NT just felt better in mobility fights, wich is almost every fight nowadays. :P

  5. #5
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    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=39

    From the fire guide. Scroll down to see Nether Tempest.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    Almost every post out there tells me to pick frost bomb...I just can't help but feel NT would be better unless big AoE fights. I'm only lvl 84 though...NT just felt better in mobility fights, wich is almost every fight nowadays. :P
    Until you start raiding or doing LFR I would recommend using frost bomb The burst when mobs are frozen in groups makes it much better for questing and dungeons. I only use NT for dailies now because it works much better with high ilvl gear.

    NT is much better for movement and frost bomb doesn't proc LotC which obviously hurts your dps a lot. NT also procs BF more in theory, in reality it depends on your luck. The only disadvantage to NT is trying to get all your FoF and BF charges up for alter time can be a lot harder.

    I've done the sims myself and NT always wins over FB when there's a bit of movement assuming you have LotC.

    As usual simming your own gear works the best. Just make sure to run helter skelter and patchwerk not just patchwerk.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-12-05 at 04:20 AM.
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  7. #7
    4.17% haste: 13 ticks in 12.48 seconds
    12.5% haste: 14 ticks in 12.44 seconds
    20.84% haste: 15 ticks in 12.41 seconds
    29.17% haste: 16 ticks in 12.39 seconds
    37.5% haste: 17 ticks in 12.36 seconds

    its possible to get 16th tick with full haste gems and reforge haste AND use frost armor

    everyone should aim for 7.14%(about 3037haste rating) so they can reach 12.5% haste cap for both living bomb AND NT

    if you however are using frost armor you should aim for 7.56%(3214.69 haste rating) so you can get your 15th tick of NT
    Last edited by Soulstrike; 2012-12-05 at 05:49 AM.
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  8. #8
    I just hit the breakpoint for the 17th NT tick, It's so freaking good on multi-dotting now, it's fantastic.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    4.17% haste: 13 ticks in 12.48 seconds
    12.5% haste: 14 ticks in 12.44 seconds
    20.84% haste: 15 ticks in 12.41 seconds
    29.17% haste: 16 ticks in 12.39 seconds
    37.5% haste: 17 ticks in 12.36 seconds

    its possible to get 16th tick with full haste gems and reforge haste AND use frost armor

    everyone should aim for 7.14%(about 3037haste rating) so they can reach 12.5% haste cap for both living bomb AND NT

    if you however are using frost armor you should aim for 7.56%(3214.69 haste rating) so you can get your 15th tick of NT
    How is haste worked out? I know it's "multiplicative" but it's confusing me.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-12-05 at 06:11 AM.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    How is haste worked out? I know it's "multiplicative" but it's confusing me.
    Haste and dots have a simple to understand, but kinda hard to explain relationship. Essentially, when you have enough haste to add half of an additional tick, the game rounds up and gives you 1 extra tick. Let me demonstrate.

    Nether tempest starts with 12 sec duration, 12 ticks, 1 sec tick length. Now lets say you want to get 13 ticks. This means you need enough haste to fit 12.5 ticks in 12 secs. 12/12.5 = 0.96 sec tick length.

    Take the original tick length and divide by the new tick length to find out how much haste you need. 1.0/0.96 = 1.04167. That equates to 4.17% haste (how and where the game rounds and/or truncates the decimal is somewhat tricky so not getting into it, and therefore my rounding may be off by a tiny bit.)

    So now you have 13 ticks at 0.96 sec length, for a total dot duration of 12.48 sec.

    Haste being multiplicative is only involved in calculating how much haste you have. For example, 15 ticks requires 20.84% haste total or 1.2084. You get 7% from frost armor (1.07) and 5% from raid haste buff (1.05) --> 1.07*1.05= 1.1235
    So the amount of haste you need from gear is 1.2084/1.1235 = 1.0756 or 7.56% haste.

    7.56*425 = 3213 haste rating from gear is how much you need to reach 15 ticks (may be off by 2-3 rating due to quick and dirty rounding)

    Hope that makes more sense to you now.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2012-12-05 at 02:34 PM.

  11. #11
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    FYI, you can refresh LB after the second last tick and it will still deal the total damage with last tick + explosion. So, LB > NT.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    FYI, you can refresh LB after the second last tick and it will still deal the total damage with last tick + explosion. So, LB > NT.
    We're aware, it is because of that that LB and NT are considered more or less equal on single target already.

    Bout the only reason i prefer NT single target is that all of its damage scales with haste - where as with LB, only 50% of the damage (dot ticks) scale with haste; the other 50% from the explosion never scales with haste.

    its prolly a teeny tiny difference at the gear levels we are talking bout but whatever

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaikiii View Post
    FYI, you can refresh LB after the second last tick and it will still deal the total damage with last tick + explosion. So, LB > NT.
    If you're able to do this every time with LB, or at least 90% of the time over the course of a fight it will most certainly outdps NT. But NT is just nice because it's fire and forget, and you have the option of really multi-dotting which on some fights is beyond amazing.

    LB is definitely the best single target DoT if you can force those explosions early like we should be.

  14. #14
    Refreshing LB early is a convenience, not a DPS increase (except for maximizing uptime). The explosion doesn't happen any earlier.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Virtuous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    Refreshing LB early is a convenience, not a DPS increase (except for maximizing uptime). The explosion doesn't happen any earlier.

    <2 it will still explode if you re-apply LB actually.
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  16. #16
    The Patient Brewswami's Avatar
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    Virtuous you didn't understand Tickspoon's argument. He knows that it still explodes if you reapply earlier, nowhere in his post did it show he didn't think so. However, Tickspoon you are not taking into account for arcane. When your camping 6 stacks of arcane charge. Missiles does not proc off ticks but only applications of NT or LB. So being able to reapply early every time you are forced to either drop stacks or scorch and getting a missile proc out of it would be huge. Not to mention giving you an instant that you can use more often on the move without a dps decrease is great.
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  17. #17
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    NT is supposed to be used with frost. Frost bomb is only viable for frost on wind lord or if you are fighting a patchwerk fight and you have RoY and EoT as your trinkets.

    The frost guide isn't very clear on what bomb to use and could probably use some clarification for simplicity.
    Even on most movement fights, you'll still have room to throw frost bomb on CD. NT is only used because most raiders have the elegon trinket; frost bomb is higher single target DPS on average.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Even on most movement fights, you'll still have room to throw frost bomb on CD. NT is only used because most raiders have the elegon trinket; frost bomb is higher single target DPS on average.
    I disagree. The results from my sims are that only single target fights very close to patchwerk work with frost bomb EoT + RoY.

    Of course sims aren't reality so if you are talking from real experience then your right.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    Refreshing LB early is a convenience, not a DPS increase
    It is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tickspoon View Post
    The explosion doesn't happen any earlier.
    It does.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome Virtuous's Avatar
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    <Edit> Nevermind.
    Last edited by Virtuous; 2012-12-08 at 08:09 PM.
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