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  1. #1

    Surging Mists vs Healing Sphere - Tank healing

    Healing Spheres don't look promising at being cost effective unless you have no chi, and cannot heal the tank with your statue. Best used in downtime so the tank can heal himself up when needed.

    Spell Details:

    Healing Sphere
    • 6k mana
    • 60k heal
    • 0 chi effect
    Surging Mists
    • 24k mana
    • 75k heal
    • 1 chi generation
    Soothing Mists
    • 2.8k startup cost
    • 2.8k mana
    • 16k health per sec/tick +30% (Enveloping Mists) = 20.8k hps
    • 1 chi generation every 3rd hit
    Enveloping Mists
    • 0 mana
    • 100k heal
    • 3 chi cost
    Mana Tea
    • 12k mana return / 13.8k mana return (assention talent) per 4 chi + 10-20% from crit = 13.2k to 16.5k mana return.

    So lets theorise that we dont need the Chi to AOE heal and our tank has fallen low. Also we cant heal him up with just Soothing Mists and Enveloping Mists. Lets also assume that other heals apart from healing sphere crit for more. I will give some benefit of the doubt to a normal healing rotation, like extra time on Enveloping Mists and increased crits.

    Again the servers are down so I pulled these numbers from my head.

    Spamming Healing Sphere:

    5x healing sphere
    • 5 sec
    • 300k heal
    • 30k mana cost

    Normal Healing Rotation:

    Soothing Mists:
    • 4 sec
    • 110k heal
    • 14k mana
    Enveloping Mists
    • 1 sec during Soothing Mists
    • 120k heal
    • 0 mana
    • 3 chi worth of heal
    Surging Mists:
    • 1 sec during Soothing Mists
    • 75k heal
    • 24k mana
    Mana Tea
    • 1 sec
    • 2.3 chi generated
    • 7.59k to 7.93k mana return

    Healing Sphere Total Cost:
    • 300k heal
    • 30k mana

    Normal Rotation Total Cost:
    • 305k heal + 10% bonus incase sphere crits are bad / mastery estimate = 335k
    • 30.07k to 30.41k mana cost
    OR
    • 300k heal
    • 26.9k to 27.23k mana cost

    Therefore, Healing Spheres are not more effective. Since Healing Spheres cannot heal at a faster rate than this so its pointless to factor in Surging Mist spam.

    Healing Spheres don't look promising at being cost effective unless you have no chi, and cannot heal the tank with your statue.

    Although I will be dropping them in downtime so the tank can fix his own spike damage =]

    Thanks for the input guys.
    Last edited by LordOfWesternLand; 2012-12-05 at 10:11 AM.

  2. #2
    Let's count the number of things you've blatantly ignored or just made very strange assumptions about:

    1) Statue heals from Soothing Mist, essentially doubling its total output for the same mana cost (not necessarily on the tank, but if you're worried about him dying then it will be).

    2) Why is Soothing only on the tank for one second of the Enveloping roll? That literally does not make sense in any way, I would never cast Enveloping if I was going to only cast Soothing for one second of it. Also keep in mind that it buffs the statue's Soothing Mist as well.

    3) Why would you use Mana Tea in the middle of your healing? If the healing was important enough to blow 48k on 2 Surgings, there's no way in hell I'd turn around and waste that by casting Enveloping and then stopping my Soothing channel.

    4) Why is Surging Mist even in there? How often do we come across a situation where we need to quickly dump 300k healing onto a tank by ourselves with no Chi built up or an Enveloping Mist rolling that would justify using Surging Mist not once, but twice? It's the single most mana-inefficient healing spell we have, choosing to use it at all is wildly throwing off your numbers.

    I guess what it comes down to is that you've assumed that we have absolutely nothing prepared and then suddenly need to go balls to the wall insane on healing for 4 seconds and then mysteriously cool off. In that situation, yeah you should probably be spamming spheres, or better yet use Life Cocoon. In fact, to cut down on this bloated analysis, let's cut to the problem: Surging Mist. If you're going to ignore Statue Soothings and the EM benefit on Soothing, the bulk of our healing and mana cost is coming straight from Surging, which assumes that you need that healing omgrightnow. If it comes to that, press Healing Sphere instead of Surging Mist, problem solved. A proper Soothing/EM rotation will be much more efficient than spheres, but Surging is so mana inefficient that you might as well use Healing Sphere instead.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Let's count the number of things you've blatantly ignored or just made very strange assumptions about:

    1) Statue heals from Soothing Mist, essentially doubling its total output for the same mana cost (not necessarily on the tank, but if you're worried about him dying then it will be).

    2) Why is Soothing only on the tank for one second of the Enveloping roll? That literally does not make sense in any way, I would never cast Enveloping if I was going to only cast Soothing for one second of it. Also keep in mind that it buffs the statue's Soothing Mist as well.

    3) Why would you use Mana Tea in the middle of your healing? If the healing was important enough to blow 48k on 2 Surgings, there's no way in hell I'd turn around and waste that by casting Enveloping and then stopping my Soothing channel.

    4) Why is Surging Mist even in there? How often do we come across a situation where we need to quickly dump 300k healing onto a tank by ourselves with no Chi built up or an Enveloping Mist rolling that would justify using Surging Mist not once, but twice? It's the single most mana-inefficient healing spell we have, choosing to use it at all is wildly throwing off your numbers.

    I guess what it comes down to is that you've assumed that we have absolutely nothing prepared and then suddenly need to go balls to the wall insane on healing for 4 seconds and then mysteriously cool off. In that situation, yeah you should probably be spamming spheres, or better yet use Life Cocoon. In fact, to cut down on this bloated analysis, let's cut to the problem: Surging Mist. If you're going to ignore Statue Soothings and the EM benefit on Soothing, the bulk of our healing and mana cost is coming straight from Surging, which assumes that you need that healing omgrightnow. If it comes to that, press Healing Sphere instead of Surging Mist, problem solved. A proper Soothing/EM rotation will be much more efficient than spheres, but Surging is so mana inefficient that you might as well use Healing Sphere instead.
    Ill work on it. And as for N3: there are also bad reasons for not counting it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 11:17 AM ----------

    Fixed everything.
    Last edited by LordOfWesternLand; 2012-12-05 at 10:16 AM.

  4. #4
    That looks like it makes a lot more sense now, I appreciate good analysis and I'm sure a lot of other people here do too. Manually dropping Spheres looks like it might be viable in select situations based on your new numbers, but I personally don't have enough confidence in my twitch reflexes to be able to position the spheres right with ground-targeting to feel confident in using them even in that situation. On the whole though, it's a very easy way to heal that doesn't have hardly any drawbacks, so I might see myself sitting at 5 Chi and then dropping healing spheres if I know I'll need that Chi very soon.

    On a side note, seems ridiculously strong for PvP. Something to watch out for from those that do hardcore PvP.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    1) Statue heals from Soothing Mist, essentially doubling its total output for the same mana cost (not necessarily on the tank, but if you're worried about him dying then it will be).
    It's not double, it's 50%. Statue doubles eminence healing, but statue soothing is only 50%.

    Despite that, I have found that Soothing Mist chi gen is high enough now that if I'm trying to tank heal, I can basically have Enveloping Mists have a nearly 100% uptime on a tank. Granted, I could be doing raid healing uplift spam, but the idea that our tank healing is awful may not be quite the case anymore. Requires more testing, to be honest I have only even bothered to try to tank heal somewhat recently.

    I did try Healing Sphere, after realizing just how much HPS you can put out with it, and while yeah, it's got a lot of oomph, it's a lot rougher on the mana than it first appears because it generates no chi. Not only does this mean no tea, it also means no chi heals. And that's a big deal.

    Oh, and targeting isn't an issue. The spheres have a pretty big pickup radius, and for what I tried them on (Exhale tank healing), the tank ate them up as fast as I could put them down. If there's a big clump (Force and Verve), then it is semi-random, but spamming it led to that bubble being completely topped off while the other two bubbles were noticeably lower (mostly because I wasn't doing Uplift spam, but hey, testing!).
    Last edited by Dreyo; 2012-12-05 at 03:01 PM.

  6. #6
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Our tank healing has never been bad in the absolute sense, just very easy to destroy your mana by blowing too much on Surging Mist if you're not careful. We probably have the best burst tank healing in the game, if you're willing to spend the mana on it. Surging Mist heals for more than other healer's Greater Heal equivalents with an instant cast (1s GCD) while channeling Soothing Mists, and the healing efficiency is about 20% better than Healing Surge or Flash of Light at 20k spell power.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FE&pli=1#gid=1

    However, previously, you were foolish to have a Monk tank heal, when our raid healing throughput was so ridiculously powerful and efficient. Now that our AoE healing has been nerfed and the efficiency of everything that's not tank healing has been nerfed, our tank healing suddenly looks a lot more attractive.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 09:34 AM ----------

    Also, do you have any solid scaling factors for Healing Sphere? The highest number on wowdb is 75% (wowhead has no numbers)... Surging Mists is a whopping 180% of SP.

  7. #7
    healing sphere has 0.5sec gcd

  8. #8
    As ihaz stated, healing sphere GCD is .5s, meaning you can spam it 2x as fast as EnvM/SuM, getting direct healing twice as strong.
    My healing spheres average 160k HPS on demand, whenever I want them. Not only does Soothing/EnvM have a large ramp up, they are HoT's which innately have large overhealing (as well as being very weak at picking up a tank). Once you factor in overhealing, not only do healing spheres have significantly higher HPS, but they are also significantly more efficient than soothing/enveloping. Other than difficulties placing them, theres no reason SoM/EnvM is > healing spheres.
    As for needing to burst heal and then not need much, you must not have done H Empress, my 3 tanks all randomly take spike damage nearly equal to their health and I'm generally the one helping spot heal all 3 while the other 6 healers are assigned to tanks.

    Also, tank healing (w/o healing sphere) requires chi. All chi gen has been nerfed, and EnvM was nerfed by 33% (more than our AoE healing). As such, our tank healing is comparably significantly worse than pre-patch using "normal" methods.
    On the other hand, HS was buffed by 50% and it's mana has not been touched, making it the #1 tank heal spell we have. Valen's MW calc has HS spheres scaling at 120.6% spellpower and surging mist at 180% spellpower. Mana per mana, global per global, healing sphere blows surging mist (and SoM/EnvM) away.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    It's not double, it's 50%. Statue doubles eminence healing, but statue soothing is only 50%.
    Interesting, I always assumed it was 100% because it says that it "casts Soothing Mist" without mentioning any kind of modifier on it. I just logged in specifically to test it and it's true, only 50%, what a strange tooltip.

    Also, interesting note on the scaling. When I was comparing numbers it was without full raid buffs, food, and flask, which probably would have made the difference more clear. Will definitely have to try this next raid.
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2012-12-05 at 07:12 PM.

  10. #10
    Considering it takes around 1/2 seconds for the game to acknowledge the sphere is there I'll stick with standards

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    Considering it takes around 1/2 seconds for the game to acknowledge the sphere is there I'll stick with standards
    It doesn't matter if the sphere has rendered or not, it can be picked up before it even finishes spawning if dropped on someone. Try taking some fall damage then drop one on yourself and you'll see an instant heal.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lerris View Post
    It doesn't matter if the sphere has rendered or not, it can be picked up before it even finishes spawning if dropped on someone. Try taking some fall damage then drop one on yourself and you'll see an instant heal.
    I can't see the visual.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LordOfWesternLand View Post
    Healing Spheres don't look promising at being cost effective unless you have no chi, and cannot heal the tank with your statue. Best used in downtime so the tank can heal himself up when needed.

    Spell Details:

    Healing Sphere
    • 6k mana
    • 60k heal
    • 0 chi effect
    Surging Mists
    • 24k mana
    • 75k heal
    • 1 chi generation
    Soothing Mists
    • 2.8k startup cost
    • 2.8k mana
    • 16k health per sec/tick +30% (Enveloping Mists) = 20.8k hps
    • 1 chi generation every 3rd hit
    Enveloping Mists
    • 0 mana
    • 100k heal
    • 3 chi cost
    Mana Tea
    • 12k mana return / 13.8k mana return (assention talent) per 4 chi + 10-20% from crit = 13.2k to 16.5k mana return.

    So lets theorise that we dont need the Chi to AOE heal and our tank has fallen low. Also we cant heal him up with just Soothing Mists and Enveloping Mists. Lets also assume that other heals apart from healing sphere crit for more. I will give some benefit of the doubt to a normal healing rotation, like extra time on Enveloping Mists and increased crits.

    Again the servers are down so I pulled these numbers from my head.

    Spamming Healing Sphere:

    5x healing sphere
    • 5 sec
    • 300k heal
    • 30k mana cost

    Normal Healing Rotation:

    Soothing Mists:
    • 4 sec
    • 110k heal
    • 14k mana
    Enveloping Mists
    • 1 sec during Soothing Mists
    • 120k heal
    • 0 mana
    • 3 chi worth of heal
    Surging Mists:
    • 1 sec during Soothing Mists
    • 75k heal
    • 24k mana
    Mana Tea
    • 1 sec
    • 2.3 chi generated
    • 7.59k to 7.93k mana return

    Healing Sphere Total Cost:
    • 300k heal
    • 30k mana

    Normal Rotation Total Cost:
    • 305k heal + 10% bonus incase sphere crits are bad / mastery estimate = 335k
    • 30.07k to 30.41k mana cost
    OR
    • 300k heal
    • 26.9k to 27.23k mana cost

    Therefore, Healing Spheres are not more effective. Since Healing Spheres cannot heal at a faster rate than this so its pointless to factor in Surging Mist spam.

    Healing Spheres don't look promising at being cost effective unless you have no chi, and cannot heal the tank with your statue.

    Although I will be dropping them in downtime so the tank can fix his own spike damage =]

    Thanks for the input guys.

    Please dont underline and bold things that you made up calculations for with wrong information that you pulled while the servers are down. It's misleading the community at best and trolling at worst.

    Heres how the original post should have been done stating that Healing Sphere is a very mana efficient heal even though it does not generate chi (you wouldnt use this if you for instance knew a big aoe phase was about to happen and you wanted to generate 4-5 chi). This is strictly for tank healing calculations.


    assuming 20% crit / ascension

    Spell Details:

    Healing Sphere

    6k mana
    60k heal (72k counting crit)
    0 chi effect

    Surging Mists

    26.4k mana (23760 with 2pce)
    75k heal (90k counting crit)
    1 chi generation

    Soothing Mists

    2831 startup cost
    2831 mana per sec
    13k health per sec/tick +30% if Enveloping Mists is up (15.6k counting crit) - this includes the 50% from statue
    30% chance to generate chi on cast + 30% chance per 0.9second (8ticks over 7.2seconds)

    Enveloping Mists

    0 mana
    150k heal (180k counting crit)
    3 chi cost

    Mana Tea

    13.8k mana return per 4 chi spent
    20% chance for 2x mana = 16.56k


    So lets theorise that we dont need the Chi to AOE heal and our tank has fallen low. - ok

    Also we cant heal him up with just Soothing Mists and Enveloping Mists. - ok

    Lets also assume that other heals apart from healing sphere crit for more. - we cant assume this as it is not true

    I will give some benefit of the doubt to a normal healing rotation, like extra time on Enveloping Mists and increased crits.

    Again the servers are down so I pulled these numbers from my head. (obviously)


    Spamming Healing Sphere:

    14x healing sphere

    7 sec (0.5sec GCD)
    1008k heal (72k x 14 you have to include avg. calculated after factoring in crit - numbers going forward will be with crit factored in)
    84k mana cost

    Healing Sphere = 144k HPS (72x2) @ 12kmana per second (easy calculation)



    Now the harder calculations:


    "Normal" Healing Rotation: (I assume only having to use 1 surging mist on a spiking tank is "Normal"?)
    start @ 0 chi
    Soothing
    1 Surging to keep tank up
    Envelop @ 3 chi

    @30% chance per chi on SM, you will need ~7ticks to gain 2 chi to envelop

    =
    7 ticks of non enveloped SM (109.2k heal for 19817mana)
    2 ticks of enveloped SM (40.56k heal for 5662mana)
    1 surging (90k heal for 26.4k mana (23760 with 2pce))
    1 enveloping (180kheal for 0mana)
    3/4 of a mana tea = 12.42k mana returned

    "Normal" Healing Rotation excluding mana tea = 419.79k healing @ 51879mana (-2640mana w/ 2pce) over 7.2sec
    = 58.3k hps @ 7205.416mana per second (6838.75mana/sec w/ 2pce)
    "Normal" Healing Rotation popping mana tea @ end = 419.79healing @ 39459mana (-2640mana w/ 2pce) over 8.2sec
    = 51.2k hps @ 4812.07 mana per second (4490.122mana/sec w/ 2pce)

    2x Surging rotation (more likely for o sh*t moments):
    start @ 0 chi
    Soothing
    2x Surging to keep tank up
    Envelop @ 3 chi

    @30% chance per chi on SM, you will need ~3ticks to gain 1 chi to envelop

    =
    3 ticks of non enveloped SM (46.8 k heal for 8493mana)
    2 surging (180k heal for 52.8k mana (47520 with 2pce))
    6 ticks of enveloped SM (121.68k heal for 16986mana)
    1 enveloping (180kheal for 0mana)
    3/4 of a mana tea = 12.42k mana returned



    2x Surging Healing Rotation excluding mana tea = 528.48k healing @ 78279mana (-5280mana w/ 2pce) over 7.2sec
    = 73.4k hps @ 10,872mana per second (10138.75mana/sec w/ 2pce)
    2x Surging Healing Rotation popping mana tea @ end = 528.48k healing @ 65859mana (-5280mana w/ 2pce) over 8.2sec
    = 64.45k hps @ 8031.59 mana per second (7387.68mana/sec w/ 2pce)




    HpM (The healing per mana for the above rotations)


    Healing Sphere = 144k HpS / 12k MpS = 12 HpM
    Normal excluding mana tea popped @ end of SM = 8.09 HpM (8.525 w/ 2 pce)
    Normal including mana tea popped @ end of SM = 10.64 HpM (11.403 w/ 2pce)
    2x Surging mana tea popped @ end of SM = 6.75 HpM (7.24 w/ 2pce)
    2x Surging mana tea popped @ end of SM = 8.025 HpM (8.724 w/ 2pce)


    Conclusion: Even with only using 1 Surging Mist to heal the tank during a Soothing Mist (unlikely for me in a 10man), Healing Spheres are still more efficient even though they do not generate mana tea stacks. Save the chi for Uplift
    Last edited by dar3652; 2012-12-06 at 07:56 AM.

  14. #14
    And without using Surging at all, Soothing/EM is far more efficient than Healing Spheres. So, like I said, Surging Mist is so ridiculously mana inefficient compared to not only our spells but most healers' "flash heal" that Healing Spheres is always a more desirable alternative. Again, the problem here is Surging Mist, not really anything else.

  15. #15
    Blade lord fight running from one side of the room to the next, spamming healing spheres all day kept raid up.

  16. #16
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And without using Surging at all, Soothing/EM is far more efficient than Healing Spheres. So, like I said, Surging Mist is so ridiculously mana inefficient compared to not only our spells but most healers' "flash heal" that Healing Spheres is always a more desirable alternative. Again, the problem here is Surging Mist, not really anything else.
    No, no it's not. It's more efficient than Shaman/Paladin flash heals. Less efficient than Priests. Druid's regrowth is weird, but it looks like Surging is less efficient. Druids are in a much worse place than us right now anyway.

  17. #17
    Dropping healing sphere is boring gameplay. Period :-)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    No, no it's not. It's more efficient than Shaman/Paladin flash heals. Less efficient than Priests. Druid's regrowth is weird, but it looks like Surging is less efficient. Druids are in a much worse place than us right now anyway.
    Excepted SM fills both flash and great heal niches we don't have the luxury to GHeal. Look at parses and I dare you to find non procced "flashes" used by healers.

    @Totaltotemic's last comment
    The issue is that SoM+EM will almost always result in massive overhealing. Healing Spheres won't. That's not factored in either of the maths above and it's fairly big. The better your cohealers the worse SoM+EM is (esp with specific classes like hpals)

    @dar3652
    Nice rework of original post, it's kinda essential to compare within the same time frame. There is still an issue with your post though, you did not consider the mana return from the 1.8 mana tea averaging from the 6 EMed SoM ticks.

    Last but not least the EM values appear to not factor crit%.

    Or at least in Ilvl 490, my EM ticks for roughly 25k, 6 times baseline, 7 with my haste level so 175-180k is a good estimate precrit.

  19. #19
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    I like to think of EM as our GHeal replacement. And I do think that Surging Mist needs to be slightly more mana efficient. I'd actually like to see a mechanic where Soothing Mist ticks (non-statue) reduce the cost of Surging Mist on that target, which would make it more useful for sustained tank healing. For spot healing, I'd love to see them bring back the glyph that lets you cast Expel Harm on another target (and reduce the cooldown).

    For an emergency heal, Surging Mist is as good as anyone else's flash heal. It's lighter spot healing where I'd like to see another option.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    I like to think of EM as our GHeal replacement. And I do think that Surging Mist needs to be slightly more mana efficient. I'd actually like to see a mechanic where Soothing Mist ticks (non-statue) reduce the cost of Surging Mist on that target, which would make it more useful for sustained tank healing. For spot healing, I'd love to see them bring back the glyph that lets you cast Expel Harm on another target (and reduce the cooldown).

    For an emergency heal, Surging Mist is as good as anyone else's flash heal. It's lighter spot healing where I'd like to see another option.
    Yeah, I can pretty easily say my EnvM normally has 80% overheal even when I use it while tanks are taking "spike damage" and I'm assigned to help heal.
    So I have pretty much abandon'd it and use healing spheres instead.

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