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  1. #81
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Not really, they're basically saying the spreadsheet's irrelevant because it focuses on lowering damage taken, not lowering burst.
    5.1 really brought a lot of personal customization options which I think is great for the class. Probably the only thing AMR can do is add/fix the Stamina & Haste cap options and possibly make a default set that favors mastery. You'd probably be looking at these scenarios;

    1) Standard Agil>Haste>Crit gearing, basically current WW setup.
    2) Haste capping. Able to set the point where Haste value drops to X to maintain a min energy regen.
    - Not sure how best to do this in UI. I like to think of it in energy regen rates not ratings or % and you'd have to account for Ascension = Yes/No.
    3) Stam capping. Never done this though a reforge site so assume just setting X stam as a min would work. Not sure if people would prefer setting min Y HP raid buffed instead.
    4) Stam/Mastery preset. Basically what is being done at this time but favoring Mastery over Haste?
    5) Something I forgot?

    # 1 would basically be the default.

    Oh, when forcing Hit/Expertise caps if you could some how make it favor Expertise when going above the soft caps would be nice. Fiddling with the ratings it does some weird things from 7.54%/7.51% to 7.53%/7.56% to a really weird 7.70%/7.51%. Expertise retains value > 7.50% while hit drops to 0 value so would rather it seem to favor putting the sometimes unavoidable overage into the expertise side of the line.

    Technically this retains somewhat true for non-BrM anyways on any fight that forces melee DPS to stack in front of a target extra expertise provides value. Almost the same as the spreadsheet has an option to decrease expertise value on tank swaps where you spend 50% of your time dps'ing basically.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  2. #82
    Thanks SurrealNight that makes a lot of sense.

    In general though I think most average/better than average monks want a balanced build. In other words, some haste/crit for mitigation with enough stam/mastery to smooth out spikes. We're not on cutting edge content- but I'd like to do what I can to make things easier.

    Another build that I would suggest then would be "balanced"....not particularly stacking one way to the extreme. I don't know how the specifics would work on that though. Would it balance haste and mastery based on purifying stacks at regular intervals? I dunno.

    I think what I'm going to do is gear/enchant for crit/haste and then use stam food and stam trinkets. I have the relic of niuzao and the jade warlord figurine. Both of them have enough stam to even up the difference as well as really good on-use effects to buff me up (though that's a lot of buttons to press). I'd actually probably only use both on magic-heavy fights, and then switch out one for something like the Bottle of Infinite Stars for regular fights.

  3. #83
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    You have the right idea, it's why I think a lot of people dislike when a reforge calculator goes stam cause it does it in a poor way. You have to look at the "opportunity cost" of haste/crit you are giving up for that gem/enchant/item and you'll see that there are certain spots that gain more stam for the other stuff they give up. Trinkets are a great example because they offer a ton of Stam and most of the time at least have a /use that provides some value at least. Stam meta, leg enchants, and for LW stam wrists are very lucrative choices in increasing EH.

    Now look at your other gem slots and if you use a stam hybrid in each one you really only end up with about 27k HP depending on your gear. Now remember you are giving up 320 rating per slot in return for those HP's and it's not a terribly attractive choice outside of maybe blue/prismatic slots.

    The other amusing thing about stam stacking for us is it's basically a self fulfilling prophecy with a twist at the end. The more Stam you gear for the less mitigation you have in return, which increases the likelihood of you "needing" that extra HP because you are getting hit more often by sacrificing mitigation. Then you have to take into account that since you are getting hit more you will stagger more which will increase your need to use PB which in turn increases your need for haste. So as you stack stam you also are increasing your min haste requirements and basically increasing your perception of how much Stam you need because you see yourself getting hit more often.

    That said mastery is still a horrible stat even if your stacking stam, not sure why the whole stam/mastery combo is even used. As Madgod mentioned in the tank thread you need 6k mastery for 5% extra stagger. So you give up 6k haste/crit for 5% boost in EH at the same time creating the same cycle Stam does by generating a need to PB more requiring haste and increasing the frequency you "need" the mastery cause your being hit more. 5% EH at a really topped out Stam pool is only like 33k HP which is why Stam is at least much better than mastery at improving EH.

    So from a reforge calculator standpoint your best off locking in your primo stam choices and then going with the standard Agil>Haste>Crit.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  4. #84
    Yeah from what I'm seeing, all BrM's stats are interwoven....I think what Blizz wants is for BrM tanks to find each stat useful at different points- which is why I'm looking for a balanced build.

    Mastery may seem worse, but at a certain point extra haste or crit doesn't really do much- the extra chi goes into what? chi wave? not that effective. at that point you'll also be getting EB stacks at a quick rate b/c your haste and crit are high. on the other hand, as has been pointed out, you'll be taking more spiky damage which sucks for tank deaths and healers.

    then you'll need mastery- which takes up chi (more PB) and takes the place of haste/crit rating- which means you'll need more haste.

    thus you need enough haste/crit to make sure you can do two things:
    1)have enough chi to keep stagger up and extra chi for PB
    2)get EB stacks at a comfortable pace (depends on the fight)

    once that happens, balance mastery and haste to satisfy 1)

    this way: you'll have mitigation for sustained damage and be resistant against spikes

  5. #85
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caeth View Post
    2)get EB stacks at a comfortable pace (depends on the fight)
    I disagree. 30% dodge outside of the DR is a staggering (no pun intended) amount of mitigation. I'm seriously expecting Blizz to nerf this ability at some point in future tiers. You can never have enough crit until you are generating 1 stack/sec or basically 100% uptime. Factor in your uptime on a single tank fight (uptime * 30%) and look at basically the average avoidance you gain. Now look at how much damage you prevent by reducing the bosses melee hits by 1%. Crit doesn't suffer from DR either each rating point improves EB just as much as the previous until 100%.

    If you are looking to improve EH further you should just add more stam not mastery. The amount of mastery rating you need to accomplish a similar result to stamina is very skewed in stam's favor. Should really be:

    1) Have enough Haste to keep stagger/guard up, PB as needed, and possibly extra for L30 talents.
    2) Enough stam to survive expected spikes (very gear & content driven value).
    3) Crit until 100% EB uptime (currently unreachable to my knowledge)
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-12-13 at 09:00 PM. Reason: Updated EB %

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  6. #86
    Base stats: 500k hp, 50% stagger. EH = 1000k

    6k mastery rating = 5% more mastery = 10% less damage per hit: New EH = 1111k
    4.5k stam = 86.6k more hp: New EH = 1173k

    Seems like a fair tradeoff - Stamina gives more EH at a rough 3:2 ratio compared to mastery at the cost of being unable to purify the extra damage.

    Also, EB is 30%

  7. #87
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    6k mastery rating = 5% more mastery = 10% less damage per hit: New EH = 1111k
    1% more mastery = 2% more stagger amount? Thought it was 1:1 but can't seem to find the specifics anywhere online.

    Fixed EB % had Shuffle on the brain.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  8. #88
    No, I meant if you already had 50% stagger amount (20 from stance, 4 from base mastery, 20 from shuffle, and 6% from random mastery elsewhere), gaining an additional 5% is equivalent to a 10% reduction. Instead of taking 50 damage per 100, you're taking 45. 50 -> 45 = 10%.

    Mastery is basically non-DR'd mitigation.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    No, I meant if you already had 50% stagger amount (20 from stance, 4 from base mastery, 20 from shuffle, and 6% from random mastery elsewhere), gaining an additional 5% is equivalent to a 10% reduction. Instead of taking 50 damage per 100, you're taking 45. 50 -> 45 = 10%.

    Mastery is basically non-DR'd mitigation.
    That's rather false. It's only mitigation if you purify damage, and even then a direct 5% increase in shuffle won't be a direct 5% less damage taken, it will be relative. Even as a tool of effective health, it's effectiveness is very much tied to when you purify. If you don't purify at all, then yeah it's a boost to effective health, but it's not mitigation.

  10. #90
    Yes I agree that EB is a powerful CD.... but again focusing exclusively on haste/crit for it it suffers from two main issues:

    1) Randomness. An unlucky string might kill you.

    2) 100% uptime is impossible. It'll make you great for 10-15 seconds, but you need to be able to survive without it.

    I dunno though maybe I'm overthinking it.

    On a slightly related topic:

    If I'm using the Relic of Niuzao, should I macro it to EB or use it sequentially?

  11. #91
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caeth View Post
    If I'm using the Relic of Niuzao, should I macro it to EB or use it sequentially?
    Unless there is a really specific mechanic going on with the fight I'd use them separate just to improve your over all avoidance coverage. EB gives straight % and relic gives rating so they don't really interact directly for or against each other (unless it would push you > 100% avoidance which won't happen).

    Why not try this if your struggling with deciding points. Look at a heavy hitting fight and take (Buffed HP * .80) - (Mitigated (so after stagger reduction) Melee Hit * 3)
    That is testing if you'd survive 3 melee hits in a row over 4.5 seconds (1.5 boss swing timer) with no heals and you weren't topped off. That is about as crappy as a scenario as you can plan for cause you wouldn't let shuffle drop right? For bonus points you can always throw in a breath atk or something if you want to get extreme.

    3 hits might be extreme I did something similar on my DK in Cata and think I planned for 2x in a row and ended up at a nice level of health for the content. Basically find the test you want to pass, reach that point, dump everything else into crit (after haste level needed).

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  12. #92
    Here's another technical question:

    How does Blizzard decide what constitutes green/yellow/red stagger damage? Would it be better to d/l an addon that actually counts the dps it's doing to you? What would be a good point to purify damage?


  13. #93
    When the stack is over a certain % of your health it goes a different colour. I think it is 0, 20 and 40 but not sure.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    When the stack is over a certain % of your health it goes a different colour. I think it is 0, 20 and 40 but not sure.

    If I remember correctly it is a percentage of your health done in damage per tick:
    Light (green) Stagger = 0% to 3% health per tick, Moderate (yellow) Stagger = 3% to 6% health per tick, and Heavy (red) Stagger = greater than 6% health per tick.

    Which leads me to my question that is kinda on and off topic.
    My monk tank has 500k health. Now I try my best to PB in moderate stagger. So say i get smacked and now I am taking 4% damage per tick and I can't clear it for 3 ticks ((500,000 * .04) * 3) means that I took 60,000 damage from stagger. So if I stack stam and get to lets say 650k health that means ((650,000 * .04) * 3) I took 78,000 damage from stagger.

    So stacking stam (based on Stagger) is bad because you will take more damage if you wait until you hit moderate stagger? I understand that magic damage isn't staggered so it won't help there.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by mangaman2 View Post
    If I remember correctly it is a percentage of your health done in damage per tick:
    Light (green) Stagger = 0% to 3% health per tick, Moderate (yellow) Stagger = 3% to 6% health per tick, and Heavy (red) Stagger = greater than 6% health per tick.

    Which leads me to my question that is kinda on and off topic.
    My monk tank has 500k health. Now I try my best to PB in moderate stagger. So say i get smacked and now I am taking 4% damage per tick and I can't clear it for 3 ticks ((500,000 * .04) * 3) means that I took 60,000 damage from stagger. So if I stack stam and get to lets say 650k health that means ((650,000 * .04) * 3) I took 78,000 damage from stagger.

    So stacking stam (based on Stagger) is bad because you will take more damage if you wait until you hit moderate stagger? I understand that magic damage isn't staggered so it won't help there.
    The stagger damage is based on the attack you take, not your max hp, the coloring might be based on max hp, but you are comparing a 30% harder hit, and saying: "hey, i get hit 30% harder!"

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by imoom View Post
    The stagger damage is based on the attack you take, not your max hp, the coloring might be based on max hp, but you are comparing a 30% harder hit, and saying: "hey, i get hit 30% harder!"
    Cool, I know I didn't really word my question right but that was the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks.

  17. #97
    Yeah it's kind of weird.

    If you're making the decision to wait until the stagger DOT turns yellow to purify it - you'll take more damage with more stamina. The dot will have to be stronger before the icon turns yellow. Which is why I was asking whether it's better to ignore that and just purify when you take a certain amount of damage per sec. Like, hit purify when the DOT gets to 60k ticks- no matter the color of the icon.

    That's why monks are good low health tanks then? Low health/high mastery will mean that the icon turns yellow earlier and you'll purify more damage. But I guess that doesn't matter anyway- healers can handle that kind of low damage over time.

  18. #98
    From what my napkin math is showing, at 10% haste (4250 rating I believe) with Power Strikes (assuming perfect play with no misses etc) you have 4 Chi spare every minute. With Ascension at the same haste value you have 3 excess Chi per minute.

    At 15% haste (6275 rating I believe) the excess Chi you have from Power Strikes stays at 4, but with Ascension you have 4 excess Chi.

    So the questions are, how often do you feel you need to use Purifying Brew during a standard fight? Do you think that, with Power Strikes, the benefit from haste is greater then the benefit from crit and mastery between the 10% and 15% haste ratings.

    If my math is wrong let me know.

    Cheers,

    Makova.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Makova View Post
    From what my napkin math is showing, at 10% haste (4250 rating I believe) with Power Strikes (assuming perfect play with no misses etc) you have 4 Chi spare every minute. With Ascension at the same haste value you have 3 excess Chi per minute.

    At 15% haste (6275 rating I believe) the excess Chi you have from Power Strikes stays at 4, but with Ascension you have 4 excess Chi.

    So the questions are, how often do you feel you need to use Purifying Brew during a standard fight? Do you think that, with Power Strikes, the benefit from haste is greater then the benefit from crit and mastery between the 10% and 15% haste ratings.

    If my math is wrong let me know.

    Cheers,

    Makova.
    If the amount of excess chi (I assume this term means chi that is not needed for shuffle and guard?) stays the same with Power Strikes as you get higher and higher in haste, then your math's wrong.

  20. #100
    That's what I meant by excess Chi, I was rounding down with Chi so that is where the error is. At 10% haste with Power Strikes you gain 57.3 Chi per 2 minutes, with 15% haste you gain 58.95 Chi per 2 minutes.
    So new question is the 1.65 Chi that you gain per 2 minutes going to be better then the (roughly) 2000 increase to another stat like crit or mastery?

    Also, as a Brewmaster, what is our GCD?

    Cheers,

    Makova
    Last edited by Makova; 2012-12-18 at 05:19 AM. Reason: Realized I missed a keg smash with my rounding

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