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  1. #1

    Every expansion brings something to fix

    In TBC, it was attunements coupled with reputation: Blizz decided dungeons was not easily accessible to the core of their customer base, so they fixed that in WOTLK.

    In WOTLK, it was the quick and easy dungeons that everybody could do very quickly and got bored of just as quickly, so they fixed that in Cata.

    In Cata, it was the going back to difficult and longer lasting dungeons and disjointed zones, so they fixed that in MoP by going back to the WOTLK type dungeons and a single, large continent.

    In MoP, it is the release of major content via dailies. Dailies is the thing they are going to "fix" in the next expansion. You heard it here first.

  2. #2
    TBC was perfect, there was nothing to fix in it. They just thought it would be better to do things Wotlk style, how wrong were they.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose19 View Post
    TBC was perfect, there was nothing to fix in it. They just thought it would be better to do things Wotlk style, how wrong were they.
    Yeah wrong....yet Wrath brought in the most subscribers.
    End SJW
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesane View Post
    I fucking hate this LGBT and gender equality shit invading video games.

  4. #4
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose19 View Post
    TBC was perfect, there was nothing to fix in it. They just thought it would be better to do things Wotlk style, how wrong were they.
    TBC was perfect in your nostalgic mind, no game is perfect and TBC was far from it.

  5. #5
    TBC was perfect indeed, mists of dailies suck. Hey TJ if for you TBC was far from perfect, you are simply very poor dude in azeroth overall.

  6. #6
    TBC was only perfect when watched through nostalgia-colored glasses. And blizz found the hard way that LookingForGimps doesn't work too well with more...taxing dungeons (I didn't say difficult because in all honesty, cata heroics weren't difficult for a good group)

  7. #7
    Getting groups for heroic dungeons in TBC was horrible.
    Raid difficulty relative to the playerbase expereince was horrible.
    Attunements on every toon for raid access was horrible.

    TBC had a ton of awesome things, but was far from perfect.

    In regards to the OP - it sounds like they want to fix the daily issue in MoP. Not waiting until the next expansion. Of course, it is humorous how the issue is basically that a lot of people have no self control....lol. Can't......stop......doing......dailies.......must.....continue.......

  8. #8
    Cata heroics were trivial compared to TBC heroics.

    TBC was not good, I raided back then and while it had some great instances. Karazhan had so much trash I wanted to slit my wrists every time I ran it. And because of attunement and raid difficulty I ran KZ the entire expantion because some guildie decided he wanted a new main, or our healer burned out on WoW and we had to gear up a new one.

    TBC - World of Karahzhancraft. By the end I was exalted with the violet rep on three different characters....

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    TBC was perfect in your nostalgic mind, no game is perfect and TBC was far from it.

    TBC was the best state of the game from a gaming point of view.

    We had the best hard core races with other guilds...
    Casuals were actually able to raid in a challenge atmosphere with many other guilds at their same level, just a tier lower than the hard core. That's better than the current where the only good raid is the latest tier, why in the world would you want to go to an older patch? now it's useless, by then it was actually needed for some gear.

    PvP was better than now at least, and most of WotLK, just 2 seasons were were in Wrath.

    Lore/world design/etc was great ,but obviously it has been improving as tehy gain more experience, you can't blame it in TBC.

  10. #10
    Lol, TBC being perfect. Lol.

    Most DPS classes being reduced to one button spambots (Warlocks: Shadowbolt spam. Mages: Firebolt spam. Hunters: make a macro to spam steady shot without delaying auto shot, etc.), and usually only 1 spec was viable for DPS per class, the others were either PvP only or just a joke

    Hybrids being completely unable to do decent DPS compared to 'pure' DPS classes: hybrids were just there to buff the pure DPS, nothing more

    By the time Sunwell came around, Holy Paladins were basically pointless to take in raids as they couldn't AoE heal at all, only tank heal

    Warriors and Druids had terrible AoE threat generation, Prot Paladins were almost mandatory in Mount Hyjal: similarly, Druids simply couldn't tank Illidan due to the mechanics of the fight (Shear), and while Prot Paladins technically could tank him, Warriors had a much easier time of it: in other words, Warriors were main tanks, Prot Paladins were trash tanks, Druids were offtanks only

    Mages were inferior DPS to Warlocks and basically had no reason to go to raids beyond Arcane Intellect and the Scorch debuff

    Shaman were mandatory for totems (Windfury) and Heroism stacking

    Leatherworking drums were grossly OP, such that 20/25 of your raid needed to be LWers to keep the haste buff up 100% of the time



    I could keep going. Suffice to say, the game was horribly imbalanced, utterly unfair, and terribly designed.

  11. #11

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Lol, TBC being perfect. Lol.

    Most DPS classes being reduced to one button spambots (Warlocks: Shadowbolt spam. Mages: Firebolt spam. Hunters: make a macro to spam steady shot without delaying auto shot, etc.), and usually only 1 spec was viable for DPS per class, the others were either PvP only or just a joke

    Hybrids being completely unable to do decent DPS compared to 'pure' DPS classes: hybrids were just there to buff the pure DPS, nothing more

    By the time Sunwell came around, Holy Paladins were basically pointless to take in raids as they couldn't AoE heal at all, only tank heal

    Warriors and Druids had terrible AoE threat generation, Prot Paladins were almost mandatory in Mount Hyjal: similarly, Druids simply couldn't tank Illidan due to the mechanics of the fight (Shear), and while Prot Paladins technically could tank him, Warriors had a much easier time of it: in other words, Warriors were main tanks, Prot Paladins were trash tanks, Druids were offtanks only

    Mages were inferior DPS to Warlocks and basically had no reason to go to raids beyond Arcane Intellect and the Scorch debuff

    Shaman were mandatory for totems (Windfury) and Heroism stacking

    Leatherworking drums were grossly OP, such that 20/25 of your raid needed to be LWers to keep the haste buff up 100% of the time



    I could keep going. Suffice to say, the game was horribly imbalanced, utterly unfair, and terribly designed.
    Nostalgics don't care about such things, either that or they don't remember.
    BC was broken in many ways
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Getting groups for heroic dungeons in TBC was horrible.
    Raid difficulty relative to the playerbase expereince was horrible.
    Attunements on every toon for raid access was horrible.
    You just mentioned 3 major advantages of the tbc.

    - Better server social life. Your reputation amongst other players. The feel of the real mmorpg. Now I'm not sure if I run dungeons with bots or real players. And I'll never see them again.

    - You skill actually meant something. You had reasons to improve yourself - too see more content and to recieve rewards not available to other players. Now everyone can defeat the greatest villain of the expansion in 40 minutes, while being afk half of the fights. And ofc they will get their shiny epics. Without any effort, again.

    - People played with their mains and they did it well. Attunements were hard and time consuming for new player, but they kept him in game and forced him to improve himself. Nowadays I can see a bunch of noobs, telling that they are "clearing lfr with 8 alts every week", while their skill with their main is so awful that they've never seen anything but lfr. Instead of doing hard heroics and improving themselves, they spend their time for useless farming.

    There were some disadvantages of tbc, but not the ones you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    I could keep going. Suffice to say, the game was horribly imbalanced, utterly unfair, and terribly designed.
    Yeah, the lack of balance was the major tbc issue.

    But they fixed it at the price of homogenisation. Still not sure that it was worth it and if there were no other ways to deal with it.
    Last edited by traen; 2012-12-05 at 03:38 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ View Post
    TBC was perfect in your nostalgic mind, no game is perfect and TBC was far from it.
    I had every intention of unsubbing at the start of Wrath, if it had been BC all over again.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #15
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongoose19 View Post
    TBC was perfect, there was nothing to fix in it. They just thought it would be better to do things Wotlk style, how wrong were they.
    Nothing to fix... Really? Oh that's just hilarious...

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  16. #16
    Its LFD and subsequently LFR that ruined it, for me at least.
    Tbc and wrath had a lot of server community feeling.
    That made it a good mmorpg.
    Sometimes it feels like I'm playing a normal game while on Facebook.

  17. #17
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillyboy85 View Post
    TBC was perfect indeed, mists of dailies suck. Hey TJ if for you TBC was far from perfect, you are simply very poor dude in azeroth overall.
    Ah the ol' anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, won't bother.

  18. #18
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Getting groups for heroic dungeons in TBC was horrible.
    Raid difficulty relative to the playerbase expereince was horrible.
    Attunements on every toon for raid access was horrible.

    TBC had a ton of awesome things, but was far from perfect.

    In regards to the OP - it sounds like they want to fix the daily issue in MoP. Not waiting until the next expansion. Of course, it is humorous how the issue is basically that a lot of people have no self control....lol. Can't......stop......doing......dailies.......must.....continue.......
    Just a difference of opinion here:

    PUGGING a group for heroic dungeons was horrible, getting a group for heroic dungeons was easy if you had a good rep on your server, had a good guild, had skilled people on your friendlist, or any combination of the three. I never had any difficulty forming groups for heroic dungeons in TBC, but we had a good guild with a reasonably large core of players that were both active and liked one another. The server pop was mediumish, so we knew everyone worth knowing on the server, especially on our faction, and thus forming good groups was quick and painless.

    Raid difficulty relative to player experience wasn't that bad. My raid group only got to Twin Emps in Vanilla (and set foot in Naxx, but downed no bosses), but we had learned enough from that to be very successful in TBC (in Sunwell prenerf, downed all key bosses before attunements removed, etc) for a high end casual guild. There were a few bosses that were exceptions (R+J prenerf was a bitch for it's placement in Kara, Magtheridon prenerf required reasonable coordination (for the time), Vashj and Kael were amazing but definitely stonewalled a lot of guilds and raid groups), but the overall raid difficulty relative to the playerbase was good. If you had no raid experience whatsoever than it might have been a little daunting, but the difficulty of the heroic dungeons was a good introduction to raids as they required a lot of the same skills and thus were a good progression curve. If you found the heroic dungeons farmable/easy, then the raiding was an easy step up.

    Attunements on multiple toons - yeah, this is your only point I agree with. Doing away with attunements was a terrible solution though. They should have either gone to account wide attunements, guild based attunements, or earned keys (so as long as one raider has the key to the next place, the raid can enter). My personal choice would have been guild based attunements combined with account based attunements. So an attuned guild could bring anyone one a guild run, and pugs would still be possible if all pug members were attuned (and since the attunement was account wide keying on one toon keys all your toons).

    Now TBC wasn't perfect - Karazahn being 10 and a required raid tier while all future raid tiers were 25 was poorly thought out. There were class and spec viability issues and balance issues. Class stacking being mandatory to reach dps threshholds in Sunwell due to chained heroisms was poorly thought out. And there are other bad things as well, but on the whole TBC was far better than any other time in WoW.

    And for those saying that Wrath brought in the most subs - no, Wrath peaked at the most subs, it actually had far less sub growth and brought in less players than TBC. It's also the first expansion where growth stalled and started to decrease. That isn't to say that Wrath was bad - as an expansion it has some of the best bosses, it had focussed lore, and it brought in some very good potential through phasing.

    Rather than look on what needed "fixing" from each expansion, it's better to look on what good things each expansion brought.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    - People played with their mains and they did it well. Attunements were hard and time consuming for new player, but they kept him in game and forced him to improve himself. Nowadays I can see a bunch of noobs, telling that they are "clearing lfr with 8 alts every week", while their skill with their main is so awful that they've never seen anything but lfr. Instead of doing hard heroics and improving themselves, they spend their time for useless farming.
    You forget the part were lower level raid guilds basically couldn't progress because the higher ups kept stealing their good players, while the higher guilds had serious problems if they lost key players because it was a major bitch to replace them, especially if they didn't want to be asses to the lower ones.
    Also, for many, attunements didn't keep them in the game, they prevented them from taking part in certain aspects.


    Besides, somebody raiding Heroic raids still gets rewards that others cannot get. They just happen to have the same name.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    You just mentioned 3 major advantages of the tbc.

    - Better server social life. Your reputation amongst other players. The feel of the real mmorpg. Now I'm not sure if I run dungeons with bots or real players. And I'll never see them again.

    - You skill actually meant something. You had reasons to improve yourself - too see more content and to recieve rewards not available to other players. Now everyone can defeat the greatest villain of the expansion in 40 minutes, while being afk half of the fights. And ofc they will get their shiny epics. Without any effort, again.

    - People played with their mains and they did it well. Attunements were hard and time consuming for new player, but they kept him in game and forced him to improve himself. Nowadays I can see a bunch of noobs, telling that they are "clearing lfr with 8 alts every week", while their skill with their main is so awful that they've never seen anything but lfr. Instead of doing hard heroics and improving themselves, they spend their time for useless farming.

    There were some disadvantages of tbc, but not the ones you mentioned.



    Yeah, the lack of balance was the major tbc issue.

    But they fixed it at the price of homogenisation. Still not sure that it was worth it and if there were no other ways to deal with it.
    WOW, thanks for the laugh. So silly its almost sad.

    Getting groups for instances was a pain, it really was. Sure you had some advantages where people you may have done some runs with would go again but in general it was a slow process to gather a group. I also found bad groups the old way a LOT of them certainly in Vanilla more than TBC as you didnt have 10/15man raids like strat and UBRS as all dungeons were 5man.

    Skill means something now as much as it did then. Now if you're the best you do challenge modes (which you can't queue like a normal LFD for so its more like TBC heroics than ever before!) or you raid heroic raids and get the best gear. In TBC you had heroics or raids (not going into pvp) Raids were a 1 way system for progression, i didnt mind it but I prefer the system as it is now.

    Attunements WERE A PAIN. They never forced you to improve your self. Thats just absurd. Atunements were a major road block for guilds doing recruitment. We often had to steal from other guilds who were slightly lower down in progression and even then that means we had to kill TK/SSC to get someone attuned for hyjal/bt which we were progressing in. Also Kara attunement was fun the first time but not the 2nd or 4th time. By all means keep the quests but remove the attunemet.

    LFR raiding is vastly different to heroic or normals. I saw terrible players in every expansion and the original, all you see with LFD and LFR is that you barely scratched the surface on how many players there really were in the game.

    But to say attunements made you a better player is laughable. Seriously it was a quest chain theres nothing "skillful" about it. You also could simply get carried by a good guild get some good gear and then jump into a higher tier guild as a result. That is hardly a measure of skill.

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