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  1. #1

    The next class people will call to be nerfed

    So, after Blizz caves on Frost Mages, like they did with locks, what will be the next class/ability everyone will call to be nerfed?

    Instead of fixing the overall problem of burst damage and burst healing, they are nerfing individual abilities, it's really, really irritating. I don't, personally, see why they can't just buff resilience and lower the bonus to healing pvp power, or raise the nerf level of healing in pvp environements.

    I say...hmmm...I say it will be Obliterate, Not because it's OP, but because a dk can lay down the hurt quickly, and so should be nerfed so people don't have to learn to play.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    most likely druid. Seen 100k ravages and 200k starsurges. So yeah...

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    So, after Blizz caves on Frost Mages, like they did with locks, what will be the next class/ability everyone will call to be nerfed?

    Instead of fixing the overall problem of burst damage and burst healing, they are nerfing individual abilities, it's really, really irritating. I don't, personally, see why they can't just buff resilience and lower the bonus to healing pvp power, or raise the nerf level of healing in pvp environements.

    I say...hmmm...I say it will be Obliterate, Not because it's OP, but because a dk can lay down the hurt quickly, and so should be nerfed so people don't have to learn to play.
    I sense a disguised QQ about QQ, and it's not even well hidden =.=.

    The concept of PVP power wasn't exactly meant to be a tuning dial to lower/raise burst in PVP. Otherwise PVP power would be a spellpower coefficient for each spell. It was meant to prevent PVE gear from use in PVP. And I think it was a good idea on paper bad in implementation.

    If the devs simply used overall resilience as a blanket nerf/buff tool, it would be like using a axe to kill a chicken in many cases. Usually, it's 1-2 sore "nails" sticking out for each class that needs to be hammered down. In your frost mage example, nerfing the overall damage of a frost mage would not fix the problem that every deepfreeze = massive damage and out of deepfreeze the frost mage is wet noodling. The fix has to be a lowering of shatter burst and an increase to frostbolt damage, for example.

    In the case of locks, they should have compensated with a buff to the lock's sustained or accelerated their fury gains to make up for the burst nerf. This is an oversight on their part. But that ability which could pseudo-global someone in two hits needed balancing and that's a fact.
    Last edited by Booniehat; 2012-12-05 at 06:02 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    I sense a disguised QQ about QQ, and it's not even well hidden =.=.

    The concept of PVP power wasn't exactly meant to be a tuning dial to lower/raise burst in PVP. Otherwise PVP power would be a spellpower coefficient for each spell. It was meant to prevent PVE gear from use in PVP. And I think it was a good idea on paper bad in implementation.

    If the devs simply used overall resilience as a blanket nerf/buff tool, it would be like using a axe to kill a chicken in many cases. Usually, it's 1-2 sore "nails" sticking out for each class that needs to be hammered down. In your frost mage example, nerfing the overall damage of a frost mage would not fix the problem that every deepfreeze = massive damage and out of deepfreeze the frost mage is wet noodling. The fix has to be a lowering of shatter burst and an increase to frostbolt damage, for example.

    In the case of locks, they should have compensated with a buff to the lock's sustained or accelerated their fury gains to make up for the burst nerf. This is an oversight on their part. But that ability which could pseudo-global someone in two hits needed balancing and that's a fact.
    It is a bit of qq about qq.

    You're right, there are a few outliers on the top end of the damage spectrum, but burst is too high for almsot every class. They did compensate locks a bit by nerfing the cost as well as the damage, so you can get off more chaoswaves sooner, or more touch of chaos casts after your chaos waves are out.

    I don't know if my answer is the right answer, but I don't see how, without lowering overall damage in pvp through resilience, they will balance things without completely overhauling a large number of classes. You are suggesting a major overhaul for frost mages, in this example. You suggested a major overhaul to demo as well; yeah they'd have the same spells in your solution, but their setup would be very different.

    I feel, and I could be wrong, that the solution is to lower overall damage of everything, burst would still be important, but not king. Especially if you nerfed healing as well.

  5. #5
    Banned Temporary Poster's Avatar
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    Mage. Oh wait, mages are immune to big nerfs.

    I guess the opening burst of a feral druid is pretty insane, as well.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    It is a bit of qq about qq.

    You're right, there are a few outliers on the top end of the damage spectrum, but burst is too high for almsot every class. They did compensate locks a bit by nerfing the cost as well as the damage, so you can get off more chaoswaves sooner, or more touch of chaos casts after your chaos waves are out.

    I don't know if my answer is the right answer, but I don't see how, without lowering overall damage in pvp through resilience, they will balance things without completely overhauling a large number of classes. You are suggesting a major overhaul for frost mages, in this example. You suggested a major overhaul to demo as well; yeah they'd have the same spells in your solution, but their setup would be very different.

    I feel, and I could be wrong, that the solution is to lower overall damage of everything, burst would still be important, but not king. Especially if you nerfed healing as well.
    Yeah, while they do need to fine tune a few abilities from classes, I think they need to re-evaluate resilience and PVP Power. I think PVP Power scales a little bit too quickly, although I know they are using this to try and keep PVE Gear out of PVP. I think I would look at putting PVP Power on maybe a slight diminishing return and possibly have resilience scale a tiny bit better. The biggest problem with this is that it may make healers even more powerful in PVP than they already are, so that would probably require a rework as well.

  7. #7
    If: they sold honor weapons and then disallowed pve weapons in arena or RBGs, they could nerf pvp power on weapons. This would go a long way to lowering melee burst, while still keeping the important pve items out of pvp. Then they could lower pvp power significantly.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    It is a bit of qq about qq.

    You're right, there are a few outliers on the top end of the damage spectrum, but burst is too high for almsot every class. They did compensate locks a bit by nerfing the cost as well as the damage, so you can get off more chaoswaves sooner, or more touch of chaos casts after your chaos waves are out.

    I don't know if my answer is the right answer, but I don't see how, without lowering overall damage in pvp through resilience, they will balance things without completely overhauling a large number of classes. You are suggesting a major overhaul for frost mages, in this example. You suggested a major overhaul to demo as well; yeah they'd have the same spells in your solution, but their setup would be very different.

    I feel, and I could be wrong, that the solution is to lower overall damage of everything, burst would still be important, but not king. Especially if you nerfed healing as well.
    I agree with the overall sentiment. Burst is WAY too high. But that's cos healing's way too high. But then CC's all instant and free, so healing must compensate. Chicken and egg, it's just a house of cards of poor design. Not sure how to fix without an overhaul of many of the PVP systems.

    I'd like my matches to last longer than 1 minute >.<. Nowadays it's rush in, CC healer, blow CDs and hope for a dead player. If it fails, scramble to reset the fight and go again. It's like oil wrestling sans the hot chicks. I want my matches to feel like Brazillan Jiu Jitsu where it's tactic-countertactic-outplayed-win. And you need to allow for players to have time to react to see brilliant plays. One-shot macros are the worst thing to happen to the PVP metagame.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    I agree with the overall sentiment. Burst is WAY too high. But that's cos healing's way too high. But then CC's all instant and free, so healing must compensate. Chicken and egg, it's just a house of cards of poor design. Not sure how to fix without an overhaul of many of the PVP systems.

    I'd like my matches to last longer than 1 minute >.<. Nowadays it's rush in, CC healer, blow CDs and hope for a dead player. If it fails, scramble to reset the fight and go again. It's like oil wrestling sans the hot chicks. I want my matches to feel like Brazillan Jiu Jitsu where it's tactic-countertactic-outplayed-win. And you need to allow for players to have time to react to see brilliant plays. One-shot macros are the worst thing to happen to the PVP metagame.
    Hehe, I'm a BJJ blue belt, and compete on a regular basis, so this is a FANTASTIC metaphor for me. It is absolutely amazing to see one of the gracies or another of the world champ black belts go in with a flying triangle and tap someone out in 10 seconds. It's amazing because it's so difficult to do and so rare, so easily countered and countering the counter is what makes it truly impressive. It's not impressive if everyone can do it.

    One of the things my coach always tells me is "You have to execute your plan while keeping them from executing theirs."
    this is only possible in pvp if their plan doesn't consist of "haha, all my cds at the very beginning and get a kill in 2 seconds." You don't have time to react. If it was 6 seconds, that's fine, that's time to react, but the burst that can be layed down at the beginning of arenas is killing people before they even have a chance to react.

    I guess the answer is to burst first, but that means funneling everyone into the classes with the ability to front load their damage.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    Yeah, while they do need to fine tune a few abilities from classes, I think they need to re-evaluate resilience and PVP Power. I think PVP Power scales a little bit too quickly, although I know they are using this to try and keep PVE Gear out of PVP. I think I would look at putting PVP Power on maybe a slight diminishing return and possibly have resilience scale a tiny bit better. The biggest problem with this is that it may make healers even more powerful in PVP than they already are, so that would probably require a rework as well.
    Funny thing is that PVP power DOES have psuedo-DR. And Resilience does return more as you get more of it. Refer to the PVP Power/Resi guide sticky.

    However you are correct because all the scaling in the world won't help when those bloody T1/2 Weapons can have more PVP power on them than an entire PVP armor set (Rolls eyes at whichever PVP dev thought that one up).

  11. #11
    STILL mage.

    Feral druid.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirtyrock View Post
    Hehe, I'm a BJJ blue belt, and compete on a regular basis, so this is a FANTASTIC metaphor for me. It is absolutely amazing to see one of the gracies or another of the world champ black belts go in with a flying triangle and tap someone out in 10 seconds. It's amazing because it's so difficult to do and so rare, so easily countered and countering the counter is what makes it truly impressive. It's not impressive if everyone can do it.

    One of the things my coach always tells me is "You have to execute your plan while keeping them from executing theirs."
    this is only possible in pvp if their plan doesn't consist of "haha, all my cds at the very beginning and get a kill in 2 seconds." You don't have time to react. If it was 6 seconds, that's fine, that's time to react, but the burst that can be layed down at the beginning of arenas is killing people before they even have a chance to react.

    I guess the answer is to burst first, but that means funneling everyone into the classes with the ability to front load their damage.
    On my way to blue, and have been playing Judo for years as well. ^5

    Maybe they ought to send the PVP devs for some BJJ classes to give them an idea of what a strategic match between two even competitors should feel like, not this "two bulls rush at each other until dead" thing they have going on >.<

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Axi View Post
    STILL mage.

    Feral druid.
    Yeah, kitty damage is pretty sick.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    I agree with the overall sentiment. Burst is WAY too high. But that's cos healing's way too high. But then CC's all instant and free, so healing must compensate. Chicken and egg, it's just a house of cards of poor design. Not sure how to fix without an overhaul of many of the PVP systems.

    I'd like my matches to last longer than 1 minute >.<. Nowadays it's rush in, CC healer, blow CDs and hope for a dead player. If it fails, scramble to reset the fight and go again. It's like oil wrestling sans the hot chicks. I want my matches to feel like Brazillan Jiu Jitsu where it's tactic-countertactic-outplayed-win. And you need to allow for players to have time to react to see brilliant plays. One-shot macros are the worst thing to happen to the PVP metagame.
    The burst is definitely intended. For whatever reason, Blizzard thinks offensive cooldowns should be the most important thing in PvP now. Healing is always relative to damage, and it's currently high relative to typical sustained damage. Compared to cooldown damage, it's too weak to keep up (probably a good thing though). And you hit the nail on the head--every facet of PvP balance is related to several others, so global adjustments are really hard to make without a complete redesign or introducing new problems.

    I don't think anyone really likes the burst-oriented PvP design. It makes PvP really unappealing to newer/lower-rated players because they just die to stacked cooldowns wondering how to deal with it, and it's unappealing to high-rated players because the game is mostly boring with 12 seconds of important cooldown peeling every 2-3 minutes. It's still a strategy game in a way, but it feels less strategic than in the past and again it's a little fast-paced for new players.

  15. #15
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    Welcome folks to Wheel of Misfortune!

    Our first volunteer, he puts the nerf in nerfbat. GHooooostttt Crawler!

    Its time to spin the "Wheel of Misfortune!"

    Stay tuned folks to see which class it will land on!


    (OT: no idea, blizz will nerf whatevers the flavour of the month)

  16. #16
    What i'd like to see:

    • A nerf to double purge from shaman
    • A nerf to Incarnation damage (ravage is what hurts from feral, and starsurges while its up and what is critting 200k),
    • A nerf to Frost bomb and a buff to Frost bolt
    • A nerf to Warrior CD stacking

    I predict they'll end up nerfing Druid Symbiosis though as that is what is cried most about on forums, and it's one of my favourite spells in PvP. It can have such an impact on a game (who the druid symbiosis', whether it is for offensive, defensive, utility), and is a really interesting ability... but it's the easiest way out for Blizzard just to disable it in Arena and put it in the same group as Heroism / Army of the Dead etc

  17. #17
    Obviously, they are going to nerf rogue mobility.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Obviously, they are going to nerf rogue mobility.
    And they need that nerf too. Shadowstepping all over the place like it doesn't even have a cooldown. And burst of speed omg, instantly getting to their targets AND breaking roots to op (/sarcasm).

    I love how they flat out lied to rogues about mobility buffs lol.
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  19. #19
    I think the next one to get nerfed will be feral druids. Also MAYBE starsurge burst damage. I think shadow priests have pretty good burst but nothing I would particularly nerf. Some classes are just going to be stronger than others, that's always how it's going to be. Each time you nerf one, the ones that weren't nerfed our now stronger and then vice versa.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iWolfBanei View Post
    What i'd like to see:

    • A nerf to double purge from shaman
    • A nerf to Incarnation damage (ravage is what hurts from feral, and starsurges while its up and what is critting 200k),
    • A nerf to Frost bomb and a buff to Frost bolt
    • A nerf to Warrior CD stacking

    I predict they'll end up nerfing Druid Symbiosis though as that is what is cried most about on forums, and it's one of my favourite spells in PvP. It can have such an impact on a game (who the druid symbiosis', whether it is for offensive, defensive, utility), and is a really interesting ability... but it's the easiest way out for Blizzard just to disable it in Arena and put it in the same group as Heroism / Army of the Dead etc
    Incarnation is really ridiculous because of the damace increasing CDs though. Balance Incarnation increases dmg while in an Eclipse by 15%. Combined with Celestial alignment which puts you into a combined Lunar/Solar Eclipse + the eclipse 40%~ dmg bonus PLUS on use trinket gives starsurge an INCREDIBLE damage boost.

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