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  1. #41
    "You're more likely to get accused of being a part of the entitlement generation if"

    I don't care if you accuse me of being a part of the entitlement generation. You have the right to judge me in whatever way you want, however harshly you may want to do it. Judge away. Understand, though, that I just don't care.

    On a practical note, from a generational standpoint, as someone in the age 50+ category, I believe that the people between 15 and 25, for the most part, have life a lot TOUGHER than what I dealt with 30 years ago. Life was considerably easier in so many ways. We could afford to make a mistake or two - even a major mistake - and recover, and furthermore jobs, especially decent paying ones, were much easier to get. In the 1980s and 1990s, I NEVER had a problem getting a new job when I wanted one. Now? I have faced unemployment issues, and so have quite a few people I know who never had these issues in the past.

    When I hear someone call younger people the "entitlement generation", I just tune them out. They are just flat out wrong.

  2. #42
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    I would have agreed with it if somebody was paying me a salary to participate in WOW.

    But, that is not the case. Instead I pay to play it. I PLAY it... so it is something I do in my spare time, if I choose to. As it is a game, it should be entertaining (that being the main-purpose of a game in my opinion). Entertainment is subjective, so nobody but me can decide if something is entertaining for me or not. A company selling entertainment and wanting me as customer, will be interested in knowing what entertains me, so I will be providing some kind of feedback, in some way. If that game becomes something I don't find entertaining, I won't pay for it anymore; it is as simple as that.

    WOW is build around rewards. So I need to do stuff in order to get rewards. No problem here.
    WOW is making it's content (and with this the rewards) run out of time by releasing new content with new rewards, which in most cases makes the older rewards useless. This means I have to get the rewards when content is current; if I don't get them, time spend into achieving will be time wasted. So I need to get everything (which will be useless after new content-release) within a certain timeframe.

    If these things are made impossible, given a certain play-style, time available to play etc., the game will loose it's appeal.
    If the game will demand hours and hours, each and every day, a lot of people won't be able to get the most out of it and will loose interest in playing it.
    [Sure, people who have that time will enjoy it]

    The game is 8 years pld now. Players are playing it for years and have invested money (some less, some more and some a huge amount). They spend a lot of time leveling, building the character. They bought stuff out of the store, like pets, mounts etc. They invested in on-line friendships, guilds, achievements etc.

    So when changes are made to the game, which causes them to not be able to achieve anything valueable in-game, they will loose interest but will also get angry. They already have invested quite a lot and now suddnely, without them having any say in it, things change in a (for them) unacceptable way. This makes all investment of the past, a waste. So they will vent their anger.
    Also when the game-philosophy changes, this will happen.

    our accounts are not ours, I know... but they certainly feel ours.
    We lease it... but all progression made on it, is ours. Time, money, effort, every investment is that of a player. We grow attached to the chars we build and developed.

    So when we feel things are turning for the worst, we will vent our anger. That is not entitlement, that is right. We have earned that right, as we bought the game as it was at the time we bought it and we invested in it.

    As time changes, our mentality changes with the progression our society is making. This is normal and even preferred by our fellow men/women. We are not the same as we where 10.000 years ago, and that is okay. So the players of today are not the same as the players of 8 years ago. The gamers-world is different. Blizzard should not take it's players for granted.... 8 years ago they could (maybe) but now there is choice and more competition on the field.
    Spot on.

    If the trend is going to be that players spend less time ingame for rewards (because it is a more busier time online than it was 10 years ago), the gaming environment has to adapt to it, too. BUT, there's consequences, as others who like the old way of playing will also be angry.

    The extremes will not see compromises, but thank God, they are few.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  3. #43
    About the general behavior of kids these days I agree, however I don't feel like games should be held accountable for that.
    Games changing are a consequence, not a cause.

    And about games in particular I actually believe that too much competition (e.g.: e-sports) may lead to the same bad results. I, for example, am a really non-competitive person; I don't really care if I win or lose, I just want to have fun while it (winning/losing) happens. Everyone wants to feel like they are special....well they are not.
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    Well I do have a penis attached to me as well but I dont know 'a lot' about it, I dont even know how it tastes. Maybe you do.
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    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capitano666 View Post
    Games changing are a consequence, not a cause.
    Style, budgets and time frames, too.

    When gaming became BIG CORPORATE games no longer were about quality and innovation. It became getting the shit out the door before the other guy cashes in. So, like sweatshops they crank out some really half baked IPs, every training folks in expecting faster than fast paced games with fast rewards. It is the developers that developed the "week end" 8hr games and dumped it on the market (points at consoles), and gaming hasn't been the same since.

    It's really strange in the game world now. It's more grinding to reach rank and unlocks in a game (points at BF3), but games like WoW are becoming more like CS. Pretty soon if you want to RPG, go play a shooter, as it's unlock trees can be more "complex" than our talent choices in WoW.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by capitano666 View Post
    About the general behavior of kids these days I agree, however I don't feel like games should be held accountable for that.

    Parents should take their responsibility when it comes to kids!
    Games are nowadays used as a distraction for parental attention.... as I see it around me happing.
    parents are very busy.... so instead of spending time with the kids, they give the kid some game and go about their business.
    What will happen to these kids?

    I have 2 kids.. and spend as much time with them as possible.
    I saw a post on mmo-c from a parent who was asking on this forum (!!!) if he should gat his kid wow. I mean.......... ????????
    Then the reactions where also very amusing: Buy it, then you can spend quality time with your kid...... I mean?????
    How about spending quality time whith your kid, not online?
    So, because dad wants to play wow.... he buys it for the kid. Now he can do what he wants (ply) and spend time with his kid at the same time?

    Sorry, being a parent myself, I find this utterly wrong.

    When I am playing and my kid(s) come to me... I stop doing whatever i was doing in wow.... I don't care. My kids come first!

    I get the feeling in that present time where life is just becoming faster and faster and asking more and more time and effort, parent use games and such as parental tools!
    This is what causing the misbehaviour of kids. Kids (especially when they are young) reflect only their parents teachings.

  6. #46
    Every generation has viewed itself as smarter than the one who came before it and wiser than the next with the youth of that generation regarded as being "out of control".

    That is as old as society itself, that we are seeing it in gaming should not be a surprise.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Sydänyö View Post
    Also a simple fact: there's never been such a situation with computers, the internet and gaming. This is a first of it's kind.

    Whether there will be others, I'm sure. We are, however, the first people to go through this massive of a leap in technological advancement, entertainment and globalization.
    And you thought other generation's approved of new technology that seemed just as crazy? The radio, car's, television, you name it. For every technological advance we have made there has ALWAYS been a hesitation from the generation that has come before. If you honestly believe that the generation that fought WW2 was not completely outraged at the generation that gave the world the 60's you have no rational thinking power on this topic.

  8. #48
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    Fellas, I played PONG when it CAME OUT. It's still the same shit, just a different, and now much more populated pile.
    And to be honest, the writer of that article, is an excellent example of what it's like when what he describes grows up, he/she is just that unaware of wtf is going on.
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
    Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.

  9. #49
    This whole whining about "entitled kids" in games etc. is nonsensical and ridiculous in its nature. The people who criticize this don't realize that they're displaying an attitude of entitlement themselves - only scaled down to a narrower cirle of individuals. The typical demands and expectations from this kind of people are a stance of entitlement themselves. The only difference is that their self-complacent conception of how games should be contains the insistence that games shouldn't be tailored to reward anybody and everybody, but strictly people of their own particular mindset only. Fascinatingly ignorant and short-sighted.

  10. #50
    There wasn't a whole lot of meat to that article, but it did end with a redeeming quote:

    losing is a step in the process of learning how to win.
    I'm not a big fan of buzzwords used to generalize and dismiss complaints about WoW. Rose-tinted glasses, special snowflakes, entitlement, etc. Why would you bother listening to someone who says the game was better in a previous expansion when you can just immediately invalidate their entire argument by telling them to take off their rose-tinted glasses? Internet arguing 101.

  11. #51
    Meh - I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of "lose/win" that the article author mentioned. Personally, I think entitlement is directly related to access. The internet generation has faster access to information far beyond what anyone could have imagined 20 years ago.

    Today - Instant access to gobs of information is the norm.
    Before - Long time trying to dig up gobs information was the norm.

    Result = Preception is that "instant = good" and "long time = bad".

    So, I believe people today are used to things being quicker and easier than ever before, especially when using a computer.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Good things don't just happen "eventually". You have to fight for them. And when you start fighting, there will be people who would call it "entitlement". This is why I have so much issue with this mentality.

    Think about it: I can either suck it up and play a poorly balanced game, or I can give the devs a finger and say that if they don't fix their @#$, I'm taking my money somewhere else. For whatever reason, the second case is more likely to get accused of "entitlement".
    THANK YOU! My god... somebody who's actually SANE and rooted in a world where they have possession of their own mind! =D

    Thank you for seeing the obvious! It so baffles me how many people twist things into something dark and sinister when it's totally not at all. >_<
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mosely View Post
    I'm not a big fan of buzzwords used to generalize and dismiss complaints about WoW. Rose-tinted glasses, special snowflakes, entitlement, etc. Why would you bother listening to someone who says the game was better in a previous expansion when you can just immediately invalidate their entire argument by telling them to take off their rose-tinted glasses? Internet arguing 101.
    Because most people who say the old expansion was better provide either highly subjective points, ignore any negatives, or don't provide any argument at all. "Rose-tinted glasses" is never used with a good, objective argument.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Your views will change when you get older.

    Wisdom is something only you learn from experience. Get that experience and you'll see the world in a different light. Kids see the world fresh and feel invincible, that is until a 2000lb sledgehammer breaks bones, kills people and you having to pay for all of it (not mom and dad).

    Enjoy your invincibility, like a paladin's DS, it doesn't last for long.
    Your views may change with experience... but that does not mean your views become more correct.

    In fact... most of the worlds problems pretty much stem from adults who learned the wrong lessons from their "life experiences", and are operating out of a mentality of pure fear-based defensive posture. Religious, Political and Racial intolerance come to mind of easy examples of adults learning the wrong lessons from bad experiences.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Your views may change with experience... but that does not mean your views become more correct.

    In fact... most of the worlds problems pretty much stem from adults who learned the wrong lessons from their "life experiences", and are operating out of a mentality of pure fear-based defensive posture. Religious, Political and Racial intolerance come to mind of easy examples of adults learning the wrong lessons from bad experiences.
    Well put... let's get rid of religion, politics and races. And instead everyone can live anonymously on the Internet... wait, didn't SeaQuest do an episode on that?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    it's when they COMBINE a video game that one plays for general pleasure/relaxation after a hard day at work/school and treat the Warcraft society like they should be playing a video game at the same stress-level as their real-life jobs (ore real-life in general)... that's what frightens me.... >_<
    That's why YOU play video games. Others like me play because we crave the mental stimulation of a good challenge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    That's why YOU play video games. Others like me play because we crave the mental stimulation of a good challenge.
    What makes me curious about that is why the ones get to throw terms like "entitlement" on people's heads and the others seemingly dont.

  18. #58
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    The death of video games will happen when the market will be crowded with Sims, FIFAs, Need for Speeds, Spidermans and pretty much anything that can come from Electronic Arts.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    In fact... most of the worlds problems pretty much stem from adults who learned the wrong lessons from their "life experiences", and are operating out of a mentality of pure fear-based defensive posture. Religious, Political and Racial intolerance come to mind of easy examples of adults learning the wrong lessons from bad experiences.
    I believe that most of the world's problems stem from greed and self righteousness. Although I guess you could call it fear of losing what your greed gained you...but the root is still the greed and self righteousness.

    I also think it's not just what you learn from the experience. You have to couple that with what you do after. Learning and doing nothing....is basically nothing (which is what a lot of people tend to do). Learning and applying - now you've got something.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    That's why YOU play video games. Others like me play because we crave the mental stimulation of a good challenge.
    ...you seriously believe hardcore raiding is "mental stimulation"? o_O

    Knowing when not to stand in fire, while hoping a bunch of other people also know when not to stand in fire, is what you find "good mental stimulation"?

    Running around in pre-determined set patterns and repeating set patterns in perfect execution is "good mental stimulation" to you!? o_O

    Dude... if you want good mental stimulation, go read a mystery novel or try painting a picture or composing a piece of music. You get all the mental stimulation challenge you want without ANY of the stresses/pressures/monotony of raiding. Proof positive that you don't need to slam a car-door on your head in order to have a fun mental challenge.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

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