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  1. #101
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightelfsb View Post
    How can anyone be suprised by that.

    We've know for years the most played class/race combo by far are human paladin.
    During Vanilla rogues had windows were they were the most played class (partially because paladins were faction specific). The fact that in Vanilla rogues were insanely OP also helped (raid dps issues? throw more rogues at it. PvP? stunlock, ambush one shots most cloth, backstab can remove a third of a plate wearer's hp, eviscerate at 5 cps was most of any non naxx geared person's health bar. Sap and blind bonus, stealth teams combined with damage output insane when BGs introduced).

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kissme View Post
    During Vanilla rogues had windows were they were the most played class (partially because paladins were faction specific). The fact that in Vanilla rogues were insanely OP also helped (raid dps issues? throw more rogues at it. PvP? stunlock, ambush one shots most cloth, backstab can remove a third of a plate wearer's hp, eviscerate at 5 cps was most of any non naxx geared person's health bar. Sap and blind bonus, stealth teams combined with damage output insane when BGs introduced).
    I think you are overexaggerating a bit. Yes we were VERY strong in Vanilla, but it seemed like everything was about burst back then. I remember the tough fights for me were Hunters, Warlocks, Frost Mages and Warriors (seriously, if I saw a warrior had Sulfuras, I woudln't engage him most of the time unless I had help). Everyone stacked Stamina (PVP Gear had loads of Stamina on it)..

  3. #103
    Bloodsail Admiral Ninaran's Avatar
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    Bring back old poison animation. Give Shadow Walk ... something? Sound/Animation/Anything? Make Shroud of Concealment a nice shadowy smoke instead of.. a giant white circle? Away with Slice&Dice except for Combat and buff the other specs accordingly to compensate. Remove damage from poisons and auto-attacks and buff styles accordingly (buff assassination poison damage in return obviously). The class doesn't need buffs per se, it just needs improvements in the gameplay and visual aspects. There is not a single 'fun' animation when we have burning warriors with firepaths and all the crap other classes dish out and rogues have the same animations since 2005.

    It's also funny that I was spamming Sinister Strike while keeping up SnD / Rupture in Classic and am still doing the same. Something isn't right.
    Mastery will fix it.

  4. #104
    Pit Lord Kezotar's Avatar
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    For the first time rogue is the least plated Class. OMG BLIZZARD WHY YOU HATE US SO MCUH?? Rogues are still top notch, although soz.. it takes skill atm, something many rogues lack. ROFLMAO CATA ROGUE - AMBUSH 60k - AMBUSH 60k - STUN - dead. I remember warriors in CATA. Mortal strike - 6k... Overpower 4-5k... Rogues recup - 6-8k.. GL.. GL
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  5. #105
    Bloodsail Admiral Ninaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezotar View Post
    For the first time rogue is the least plated Class. OMG BLIZZARD WHY YOU HATE US SO MCUH?? Rogues are still top notch, although soz.. it takes skill atm, something many rogues lack. ROFLMAO CATA ROGUE - AMBUSH 60k - AMBUSH 60k - STUN - dead. I remember warriors in CATA. Mortal strike - 6k... Overpower 4-5k... Rogues recup - 6-8k.. GL.. GL
    Please just go.
    Mastery will fix it.

  6. #106
    Pit Lord Kezotar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninaran View Post
    Please just go.
    Why? Because I'm right? My partner hasn't gotten the slightliest pushd back. We're sitting at 23xx rating at 2,4k MMR.

    PvE he's doing nr 1. I wonder..

    Rogues are almost topping the logs.

    Overall he says - Rogue was changed to be more skill dependant. Not so much gear. I mean you compare a rogue from Cataclysm - TOP NOTCH Gear. Haste at max with a rogue that has at least 3-4 raids in front of him and 3 seasons of PvP.

    By the end of the expansion rogues will be even more powerful than ever.. Just wait for the dodge, haste and crit to increase..

    Just wait - What rogues are to expect with better gear - Better flow with energy - More criticals which will just increase the DMG. Dodge - less dmg taken etc. Rogue was too op in arena.. My friend and me in cata .. SMOKE BOMB POP DEAD. Haha..
    Last edited by Kezotar; 2012-12-06 at 07:58 PM.
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  7. #107
    You mentioned in the recent pod cast that There are more ret pallies than rogues. Does that mean Rogue buffs or Ret nerfs?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We think kit, fun, visuals, doing something special and flexibility are probably bigger drivers.
    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...53491874156544

    This is why blizzard thinks there's so few rogues yet they've done nothing at all on any of that.

  8. #108
    find it funny that one spec is more popular then an entire class

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezotar View Post
    Why? Because I'm right? My partner hasn't gotten the slightliest pushd back. We're sitting at 23xx rating at 2,4k MMR.

    PvE he's doing nr 1. I wonder..

    Rogues are almost topping the logs.

    Overall he says - Rogue was changed to be more skill dependant. Not so much gear. I mean you compare a rogue from Cataclysm - TOP NOTCH Gear. Haste at max with a rogue that has at least 3-4 raids in front of him and 3 seasons of PvP.

    By the end of the expansion rogues will be even more powerful than ever.. Just wait for the dodge, haste and crit to increase..

    Just wait - What rogues are to expect with better gear - Better flow with energy - More criticals which will just increase the DMG. Dodge - less dmg taken etc. Rogue was too op in arena.. My friend and me in cata .. SMOKE BOMB POP DEAD. Haha..
    You aren't talking about the same thing we are talking about. Rogue mobility is an issue... so much of our damage comes from passive sources that time off target destroys our damage in PVP. And the other major complaint is that the class hasn't had a redesign to make it feel more dynamic and fun like other classes have. We're still very similar to how we were in vanilla, except that we are not a burst class anymore.

    Rogues need a little bit of redesign and help with mobility.. and make the talent choices a little bit better. Most of the talents were things we already had, that they just took out of specs and made talent choices instead. That's unfun.

  10. #110
    Pit Lord Kezotar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    You aren't talking about the same thing we are talking about. Rogue mobility is an issue... so much of our damage comes from passive sources that time off target destroys our damage in PVP. And the other major complaint is that the class hasn't had a redesign to make it feel more dynamic and fun like other classes have. We're still very similar to how we were in vanilla, except that we are not a burst class anymore.

    Rogues need a little bit of redesign and help with mobility.. and make the talent choices a little bit better. Most of the talents were things we already had, that they just took out of specs and made talent choices instead. That's unfun.
    The mobility will be solved after a while. As I mentioned you have two sprints, one with energy cost. This will be used more flexible with the more haste you get - making it a better ability of choice.

    The problem with rogue is that - it takes almost nothing to make it OP.

    Might need some clearance but rogue isn't that bad as most people refer to it as.They say it's useless and bad. It's not as good as it was, but far from useless. PvE wise they're good. PvP some problems with mobility forcing to spend on shadowstep / prep. Gives shadowstep double CD and make it a non talent. - GG
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  11. #111
    Dreadlord Msi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezotar View Post
    For the first time rogue is the least plated Class. OMG BLIZZARD WHY YOU HATE US SO MCUH?? Rogues are still top notch, although soz.. it takes skill atm, something many rogues lack. ROFLMAO CATA ROGUE - AMBUSH 60k - AMBUSH 60k - STUN - dead. I remember warriors in CATA. Mortal strike - 6k... Overpower 4-5k... Rogues recup - 6-8k.. GL.. GL
    Are you stupid or? NO 1 HERE IS SAYING ROGUES ARE CRAP BUFF US PLEASE.
    Our greatest influences will always define us.

  12. #112
    Did anyone actually LISTEN to the podcast? The comment about more ret paladins than rogues was not even related to rogues and their status.

    It all started with the interviewer asking the question "why all the paladin hate?." At which point GC was saying that paladins seem to get picked on because there are so many people playing them, etc, etc. He was commenting about the fact that paladins are the most represented class--and any changes to them incur outcry from everyone.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Just because a class has three specs, doesn't mean we want to play the other two.
    But who cares?

    If you aren't willing to play every spec to maximize yourself, that's your choice. But where were the ret paladins fighting for combat rogue pvp throughout the last three expansions?

    OBVIOUSLY Blizzard should make every spec viable. But if combat and retribution don't make arena representation but holy and sub do, then paladins and rogues both have a home in arena. if retribution is bad and all rogue specs are bad, the rogue issue is far far worse, because you have a large number of unviable characters, the rogues. The other problem is paladins who have a chosen spec and want it to be better. That's a valid issue, but it's not even on the same page as a broken class.

    Ret is a spec
    Rogue is a class
    This doesn't mean that ret shouldn't be good, but it does mean that rogue rep compares to PALADIN rep, because both are CLASSES


    During Vanilla rogues had windows were they were the most played class
    Vanilla had some sections where rogues had more than their expected rep, but hunters were the most played class. Hunters and warriors were always more populous than rogues. Back then rogues did actually have a kit, and several things that only they could do, so it makes sense that more players played them. The biggest pvp issue was that CC breaks were both super rare and conditional. For instance, a warlock wearing his pvp trinket could not trinket stun, gouge, sap, or blind. That's not a rogue issue.

    Everyone stacked Stamina
    Stacking stamina makes perfect sense in a world without resilience and pvp power. Your stamina makes you alive a bit longer and out of execute ranges a bit longer, and reduces the damage dealt by long cooldown alpha strikes relative to your total health pool. They just gave us better ways to do this, while also giving us a bit more bang for our buck from the pve damage stats.

    It's also funny that I was spamming Sinister Strike while keeping up SnD / Rupture in Classic and am still doing the same.
    I like those things, I see no problem with that.

    For the first time rogue is the least plated Class.
    Rogues have been the least played class since BC. For almost the entire history of the game. During Cata, when locks made a bunch of noise about being the least played class? That thread got a blue post, pointing out that they were STILL NOT the least played class.

    That is, and has been, rogue.

    My partner hasn't gotten the slightliest pushd back. We're sitting at 23xx rating at 2,4k MMR.
    Can you link to some stuff here? I mean, you can see that the top rogues all rerolled, and we're talking 3k rogues here, as well as the ludicrously low representation of rogues right now in 2200+ arena. There's no meaningful argument that rogues are absolutely trash in pvp right now, the numbers show that super well.

    Am I to understand that you and your rogue partner are 2300? Can you have him come in here and share his thoughts, instead of you just being bitter and hateful? But at the very least, link to your armory, that alone would be good.

    he comment about more ret paladins than rogues was not even related to rogues and their status.
    So? It's still interesting, and it should be something that is thought of as a problem. We've been able to see the 3x as many pallies as rogue thing for a long time. He probably even regrets saying it already.

  14. #114
    Blizz is trying to fix rogues in the pvp environment. Why the hell are you guys posting dps stats?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Vanilla had some sections where rogues had more than their expected rep, but hunters were the most played class. Hunters and warriors were always more populous than rogues. Back then rogues did actually have a kit, and several things that only they could do, so it makes sense that more players played them. The biggest pvp issue was that CC breaks were both super rare and conditional. For instance, a warlock wearing his pvp trinket could not trinket stun, gouge, sap, or blind. That's not a rogue issue.

    Rogues have been the least played class since BC. For almost the entire history of the game. During Cata, when locks made a bunch of noise about being the least played class? That thread got a blue post, pointing out that they were STILL NOT the least played class.
    I'm not sure I buy this.
    I played a rogue in vanilla and BC, and while it is true that there were more hunters, there were certainly more rogues than warriors for large parts of vanilla.

    And there were absolutely more rogues playing than warlocks during cataclysm.

    That's the reason Blizzard revised warlocks and gave them so much content in MoP. It certainly isn't from warlocks complaining more, since the rogue community has always been extremely whiny even when it isn't justified. (Not to say that rogue complaining isn't justified right now)
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    IAnd there were absolutely more rogues playing than warlocks during cataclysm.
    It wasn't GC, it was Drax. Blizzard rarely makes absolute statements on class population, but here:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...lay-a-warlock/


    This was posted directly after the pop sites started showing locks dipping below rogues. The blue post announced simply that this was incorrect.

    There are more warlocks than rogues, and there were for at least all of Cataclysm as well, and likely all of Lich King.

  17. #117
    COOL IT

    Discussion is fine, but we're crossing the line into flaming people and back again. Stick to the topic and discussion.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 04:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gulzhul View Post
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps

    I'll just leave this here, in response to all the retards using simcraft as the word of god on earth.

    Look at that. Rogues aren't chilling in the basement, they've built a small town down there with a well and hopefully, one day, children. So much of their damage relies on being right on the target for extended periods of time with no burst, so the second a realistic encounter pops up, you're fucked.

    It's been like that for a long time, I remember planning for future boss phases just to pop a rupture on the boss right before I knew I wouldnt be able to hit him, just so my energy wouldnt be fucked. Or saving combo points I could have used for damage, but had to save to renew my buffs because heyyy im off the boss.

    Class needs a reboot.
    Forget PvP, theyre dead in pvp. Theyre walking targets.
    From your link: "Last updated with SimulationCraft 510-5 and ilvl 496 gear." If you think simulationcraft is wrong, you might want to ignore that chart too. As SimC developers are likely to tell you, it's FAR more INaccurate than the patchwerk chart, since that assumes the same penalties, movement, stun-duration for all players. Between cloak and feint, rogues (relatively often) get a damage boost from pretending mechanics don't exist and wailing away on the boss happily. Also that put assassination at the bottom of the list which I really can't imagine the cause of but, um, yeah.

    In all honesty rogue damage is fine, rogues were being used in (most) world first heroic kills, and certainly subsequent heroic kills.


    GC may have been trying to point out that there are a LOT of rets out there, but you can't make the comparison without wondering why a single spec out-numbers 3 other specs, which happen to comprise a class. WoW has updated a lot, and classes have changed in lots of ways to make them more dynamic (and often easier) but the primary rogue changes made them easier to play and failed to update rogue mobility, while everyone else got more. These are the prime issues with rogues that (probably) lead to our class being highly underplayed.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    It wasn't GC, it was Drax. Blizzard rarely makes absolute statements on class population, but here:

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...lay-a-warlock/


    This was posted directly after the pop sites started showing locks dipping below rogues. The blue post announced simply that this was incorrect.

    There are more warlocks than rogues, and there were for at least all of Cataclysm as well, and likely all of Lich King.
    If they say so.
    All I know is anytime during Cata that I /who'd class 85, warlocks were -always- the lowest population online, often with rogues as a close second. And I play on one of the highest population realms.

    I'm a bit hesitant to trust Blizzard's population numbers, because I'm moderately sure they draw numbers based on active armories.
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  19. #119
    I facepalm every time I see people say 'gears will fix it'

  20. #120
    Well Rogues still do more dps than rets in pve and are more represented in 2200+ pvp in 3's and rbgs.
    Last edited by Riptide; 2012-12-06 at 10:32 PM.

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