There are currently more Retribution Paladins than Rogues.

[AceofHarts]

Max level warlock population was under rogues for all of Cata. I remember looking at it quite a few times at the start of the expansion. Warlocks, rogues, and shaman were all in the gutter as far as population goes.

They weren't below locks for all of Wrath either. They were almost always close though. Shaman rep really hasn't been all that great either, especially in Cata.

Found this from Wrath

http://armorydatamining.appspot.com/...=PopBigPicture

Rogues and locks have gotten the honors all too often of duking it at for being the hardest suckbag.

Blizzard specifically said during cataclysm in a BLUE post that warlocks were not the least played class. and in another post they admitted rogues are the least played class.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/391..._119-11_7_2011

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...443?page=9#164

[Spiffums]

IT'S ALL TRUE!!!! I have 2 Pallys and a Rogue on my account.....

[Kissme]

I think you are overexaggerating a bit. Yes we were VERY strong in Vanilla, but it seemed like everything was about burst back then. I remember the tough fights for me were Hunters, Warlocks, Frost Mages and Warriors (seriously, if I saw a warrior had Sulfuras, I woudln't engage him most of the time unless I had help). Everyone stacked Stamina (PVP Gear had loads of Stamina on it)..

I was BWL/AQ40 geared as a rogue and I had an easy time with anyone I could open on from stealth. Rogues were insanely OP in 1v1 for Vanilla. We also died as soon as we were targeted (or damn close to it). Until they normalized our specials, slow speed daggers combo'd with ambush/backstab were insane. The 3.0spd maces were also crazy. Against the warrior with Sulfuras - Ambush, gouge, backstab - then either evis or kidney to another backstab. No other class had our burst and control combined and health pools were a joke compared to damage output.

---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 03:39 PM ----------

The most annoying thing about this Ghost Crawler guy is he acts like the problem with Rogues just crept up out of no where unexpected. I specifically remember Ghostcrawler talking about how no one wanted to play Rogues, or bring rogues to their raids in 4.2, and how they were going to work on fixing that. 4.3 rolls around, Rogues are the only class that didn't get a single tweak in the patch notes (remember an outcry then too). MoP is announced, and instead of making Rogues more viable and fun to play, Ghostcrawler immediately begins gutting the class and taking away from it.

So you admit the class wasn't fun to play, and that raids didn't want them, so you cut their skill choices in half? How is that going to make the class more fun, or viable?

All experts agreed it was going too far, and that it would destroy the class over the course of the next 8 months, and sure enough MoP finally showed up and they were right.

How is any of this a surprise? You take the class you say is the least fun, and make it even less fun / viable, and act surprised that Retribution Paladins (this is just a single talent tree, not including Holy or Prot) outnumber the ENTIRE Rogue class regardless of their spec?

Personally my favorite was "rogues are too cooldown dependent and we want to change that going into Cataclysm" - the solution? Add more cooldowns.

[Verain]

Add more cooldowns, then subtract them!

Honestly, Elusiveness is a pretty good thing. You choose to turn on some moderate defenses, at a cost. But that was mop. In Cata, directly after this, they gave us combat readiness, then linked it with cloak. Dumb.

[Coldkil]

Posting after a long time (sowwy), after reading all the pages.

What the hell is wrong with some people?

No one asks for rogue buffs - in fact is from MoP beta start that rogues asked for flavour changes while all they got has been a boring talent tree which is no more that a simpler cookie cutter spec, with no actual choice.

Rogues are fine in PvE, and has been proven thay are fine in PvP too.

The fact is simply that the rogue mechanincs aren't fun anymore - it's been 8 years of SS spamming - finisher that could have been reworked. The base mechanics are working for sure, but this doesn't mean that they are good.

The entire rogue class feels outdated, hence people simply stop playing it and reroll another char, since now it's really simple and you don't lose anything.

That's why they need a rework. Being #1 on Recount or in PvP doesn't mean a thing.

[Msi]

Thank you Coldkil for clearing that up.
I really hope people stop rage w/o reading what we are talking about first.

[Speaknoevil]

That's why they need a rework. Being #1 on Recount or in PvP doesn't mean a thing.

Having almost no self sufficiency is not fun.

[Coldkil]

Having almost no self sufficiency is not fun.

More details please.

[Deleted]

Posting after a long time (sowwy), after reading all the pages.

What the hell is wrong with some people?

No one asks for rogue buffs - in fact is from MoP beta start that rogues asked for flavour changes while all they got has been a boring talent tree which is no more that a simpler cookie cutter spec, with no actual choice.

Rogues are fine in PvE, and has been proven thay are fine in PvP too.

The fact is simply that the rogue mechanincs aren't fun anymore - it's been 8 years of SS spamming - finisher that could have been reworked. The base mechanics are working for sure, but this doesn't mean that they are good.

The entire rogue class feels outdated, hence people simply stop playing it and reroll another char, since now it's really simple and you don't lose anything.

That's why they need a rework. Being #1 on Recount or in PvP doesn't mean a thing.

Well, I like the general idea how our class plays, but I don't like my numbers and how I get to these numbers... and although I'm always #1 in our recount and often world top10 @worldoflogs (of rogues).

Not enough burst, too much passive damage, not enough influence on the output and many useless skills.

[Nyaldee]

No one asks for rogue buffs

Rogues are fine in PvE, and has been proven thay are fine in PvP too.
The entire rogue class feels outdated, hence people simply stop playing it and reroll another char, since now it's really simple and you don't lose anything.

Actually when it was too late to expect major changes many ppls who played beta asked for numbers tweaks (cooldawns, conefficients etc.) becouse they already knew how it'll turn out. And cds were finally tweaked... 3 months later...

Rogues aren't fine in PvP - even post 5.1. nerfs they're still inferior to warriors/ferals whenever you choose a melee to run with. Trick is that after 5.1 it's better to pick great rogue instead of mediocre warrior but that's not a fine state to be in. In no way i'm claiming that rogues have it worse then everybody else (would place my bet on enchace/ww monk tbh), but rogues are in pretty much the same spot as dks - looks balanced, but completly outshined by unbalanced.

And finally i completly agree on rogues being outdated, but imo it's not so much becouse of combo builder/finisher mechanics (i played monk in beta and it felt way worse designed class to me) but becouse of wholle talent tree being bloated with gimmicks we saw in one form or another over years. Everybody and their mom got new interesting stuff (not always usefull though), whille rogues have to choose between things they had at their disposal for years, have almost no visual impact and doesn't feel gamechanging.

[AceofHarts]

Actually when it was too late to expect major changes many ppls who played beta asked for numbers tweaks (cooldawns, conefficients etc.) becouse they already knew how it'll turn out. And cds were finally tweaked... 3 months later...

Rogues aren't fine in PvP - even post 5.1. nerfs they're still inferior to warriors/ferals whenever you choose a melee to run with. Trick is that after 5.1 it's better to pick great rogue instead of mediocre warrior but that's not a fine state to be in. In no way i'm claiming that rogues have it worse then everybody else (would place my bet on enchace/ww monk tbh), but rogues are in pretty much the same spot as dks - looks balanced, but completly outshined by unbalanced.

And finally i completly agree on rogues being outdated, but imo it's not so much becouse of combo builder/finisher mechanics (i played monk in beta and it felt way worse designed class to me) but becouse of wholle talent tree being bloated with gimmicks we saw in one form or another over years. Everybody and their mom got new interesting stuff (not always usefull though), whille rogues have to choose between things they had at their disposal for years, have almost no visual impact and doesn't feel gamechanging.

so its ok, as long as rogues are better then SPECS of other classes...

[Speaknoevil]

More details please.

Rogue kit is not good enough to make use of the mechanics we have to our advantage in the current meta.

-Shadowstep needs to remove snares +shorter cooldown (20 second CD with 2 charges like the warrior talent Double Time would be perfect)
-Cheat Death needs to be 100%
-Sprint needs to grant freedom to not reduce us below 100% normal movement speed
-Recuperate needs to heal 5% per tick
-Damage needs to be allocated in abilities like backstab
-Dirty Tricks needs to be baseline
-Deadly Throw needs to be baseline
-Shadowstep needs to be baseline
-Shadow Blades needs to be removed
-Preparation needs to be removed
-Evasion needs to be removed
-Combat readiness needs to be baseline
-Cloak of shadows needs to have a 1m 30s CD
-Slice and Dice needs to be removed, I'm so over this ability
-Poisons need to be utility only
-Shiv should not have a cooldown
-Shiv while using the PvP 4p bonus with a different poison needs to give crippling shiv benefit


Rogues are not unplayable, but they are not as good as ferals or warriors... that is assuming you absolutely have to play with a melee class. If we're going to include all classes as a potential rogue replacer, most all comps would do better with a different class with a player of equal skill.

[Lemons]

Rogues are fine in PvE, and has been proven thay are fine in PvP too.

I get what you're saying about the feel of the class being ancient...it is and it's something that needs to be adressed...but even so being "fine" frustrates me even more. Fine basically means middle-of-the-road...not good, not bad, just bleh. Seems like rogues are really prone to getting stuck in that zone. In fact the only time we do get out of control is when Blizzard gives us permission. They're like "hey rogues, we know we keep you down a lot, so here's a legendary, go nuts for a while. BUT THEN GET BACK TO THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK WHERE YOU BELONG."

[Rio]

I'm fine with being "Fine". But I still want mobility addressed.

Just give me ShS baseline, and replace the talent with "% speed increase after using ShS" or whatever. Then I'll be happy. Tired of Warriors in full plate dancing around like a ballerina.

[Hitei]

http://i47.tinypic.com/r1a45s.png

I thought of you guys when I entered an AV and saw this.
Next lowest class was Monk at five people.

[Battlebeard]

Make Shadowstep avaliable to all rogues, so you can have prep + step, and rogue is fixed!

So easy.

[Deleted]

From Ghostcrawler's Twitter:

I wasn't commenting on RvD, but on comparing one ability in a vacuum to another. R talents in 5.2 prob have the most changes.

Should be interesting.

[Wow]

From Ghostcrawler's Twitter:



Should be interesting.

After the train wreck beta was I don't know if thats a good or bad thing......

[AceofHarts]

After the train wreck beta was I don't know if thats a good or bad thing......

considering every single beta since bc beta rogues have been like: hey this is gonna fuck us up. and blizz is like: nah wait till it goes live.

and when it goes live blizz is like: well shit, maybe the rogues were right...

[Wow]

considering every single beta since bc beta rogues have been like: hey this is gonna fuck us up. and blizz is like: nah wait till it goes live.

and when it goes live blizz is like: well shit, maybe the rogues were right...

My only worry is they've never fucked it up this bad before. Will they go all the way to fix it this time thats the question.