1. #1
    Dreadlord
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    Traded in some talents [SV]

    So, I traded TotH and BS for DB and aMoC and saw my single target damage increase from around 23k to 26k [level 89].

    Seeing as Multishot spam puts me at the top of AoE relatively easy, is increasing your single target damage more important? [Traded in TotH]

    aMoC is just amazing, long usage, relatively short CD, easily re-appliable due to lot's of focus regen from other sources, I want to keep this.

    At 90, should I get Barrage and increase my AoE a bit more or does GT do a better job at this?

  2. #2
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    Barrage will be better for sustained AoE, but outside of challenge modes and specific bosses (Wind Lord comes to mind), Glaive Toss is better. GT is better for single target as well.

    Single target is better to talent for, but there are a few fights with AOE that you might consider ToTH for:

    N/H Stone Guards
    H Feng
    maaaaaaybe N/H Elegon if your group has troubles with the adds in the transition.
    N/H Will
    maaaaybe N/H Garalon if you're cleaving off legs onto the boss, but you should probably be on the boss.
    N/H Wind Lord
    N/H Ambershaper if you're assigned to oozes
    N/H Empress, very useful
    N/H Tsulong
    H Sha.

    That's 8 bosses, maybe 10, out of 16. Everything else, BM is better for, and I'd argue DB (single target talent) may be better on some of these fights where the AoE is short and bursty and you don't necessarily need 15 seconds of MS spam. The only places I'd say it's mandatory is H Feng for adds, and Wind Lord. And Ambershaper if you're on adds, but you probably shouldn't be. Oh, and it's very helpful on Empress too.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Barrage will be better for sustained AoE, but outside of challenge modes and specific bosses (Wind Lord comes to mind), Glaive Toss is better. GT is better for single target as well.

    Single target is better to talent for, but there are a few fights with AOE that you might consider ToTH for:

    N/H Stone Guards
    H Feng
    maaaaaaybe N/H Elegon if your group has troubles with the adds in the transition.
    N/H Will
    maaaaybe N/H Garalon if you're cleaving off legs onto the boss, but you should probably be on the boss.
    N/H Wind Lord
    N/H Ambershaper if you're assigned to oozes
    N/H Empress, very useful
    N/H Tsulong
    H Sha.

    That's 8 bosses, maybe 10, out of 16. Everything else, BM is better for, and I'd argue DB (single target talent) may be better on some of these fights where the AoE is short and bursty and you don't necessarily need 15 seconds of MS spam. The only places I'd say it's mandatory is H Feng for adds, and Wind Lord. And Ambershaper if you're on adds, but you probably shouldn't be. Oh, and it's very helpful on Empress too.
    Even though BM being better than SV single, I dislike BM, SV is more fun.
    So yeah, speccing into DB and aMoC and GT would be the general way to go?

    EDIT: SS and ET are magic damage? Mastery increases it?

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    Yes, mastery affects SrS and ET. The only thing SV mastery doesn't affect in our rotation is auto shot, glaive toss/barrage, and kill shot. And Stampede. And the 75 tier abilities. That's why, imo, the mastery-buffed Arcane Shots you get with ToTH can easily outweigh the damage from DB.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, mastery affects SrS and ET. The only thing SV mastery doesn't affect in our rotation is auto shot, glaive toss/barrage, and kill shot. And Stampede. And the 75 tier abilities. That's why, imo, the mastery-buffed Arcane Shots you get with ToTH can easily outweigh the damage from DB.
    So at higher mastery levels I should switch back to TotH?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Insarius View Post
    So at higher mastery levels I should switch back to TotH?
    I'd say no. If you are just focused on single target damage then dire beast will be better.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    I'd say no. If you are just focused on single target damage then dire beast will be better.
    Dire beast it is then, thanks.

  8. #8
    There's not a huge difference in BM and Surv to be frankly honest, especially if you play Survival properly but yes BM will win in single target situations. In a 10 man environment the only reason I will go BM is for heroism and as a result my aoe suffers unless I "pet" twist mid encounter and swap my worm for my corehound. I'm not sure why all mage specs get timewarp and only BM for hunters has it. BM is still not my preferred spec and I will more than do ok with Survival on most fights. All out single target encounters BM wins but with the buff to SrS, and how Surv mastery works, I feel it has buffed Surv more than any of the other specs. Surv multi dotting is pretty good and you do a reasonable amount of dmg by individual multi dotting on adds like amber shaper for example, Spirit Binder. Even with pet assist macros on my main nuke I still find target switching to be a pain with BM even though I command my pet to instant swap target, the travel time itself is a DPS loss. Where you can leave the pet on passive its OK but its still a pain compared to Survival you don't need to worry that much about your pet. I think Draco said it a long time ago at the start of the MOP that even though BM is superior in theory, the actual mechanics of it don't make it a huge huge margin ahead of Surv. Not played MM so no idea what that's like right now.

  9. #9
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    MM needs a buff, it's lacking in AoE clearly, and it's single falls below survival and BM by quite a lot.

    Also, Surv is so much more fun than BM for me, so I'll always do more DPS in Surv than I would in BM.
    If you like it more, you play it better.
    Especially if the dps is comparable.

  10. #10
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    It's essentially free to swap your talents around, so you should be changing your build from boss to boss. For general use as Survival, or a "default spec", I'd go with TotH and Glaive Toss.

    I personally use TotH over DB at all times. I'm not convinced that DB is much of an increase on single target.

    BM is still slightly ahead of SV for single target, but the margin is very small now, to the point where it really doesn't matter. Play what you enjoy. Be advised though, SV is competitive on all fights, whereas BM is really only good for single target. BM is likely the worst AoE/cleave spec in the game at this point.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    It's essentially free to swap your talents around, so you should be changing your build from boss to boss. For general use as Survival, or a "default spec", I'd go with TotH and Glaive Toss.

    I personally use TotH over DB at all times. I'm not convinced that DB is much of an increase on single target.

    BM is still slightly ahead of SV for single target, but the margin is very small now, to the point where it really doesn't matter. Play what you enjoy. Be advised though, SV is competitive on all fights, whereas BM is really only good for single target. BM is likely the worst AoE/cleave spec in the game at this point.
    I have seen a 3k dps increase at my current level using DB and aMoC over TotH and BS.

    I doubt aMoC alone increases that much over BS?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Insarius View Post
    I have seen a 3k dps increase at my current level using DB and aMoC over TotH and BS.

    I doubt aMoC alone increases that much over BS?

    AMoC is quite better than BS. Less GCDs more damage.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    AMoC is quite better than BS. Less GCDs more damage.
    I'll try TotH and aMoC soon then, I'll come back with results. :P

  14. #14
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    I use ToTH and AMoC regularly in SV fights, even on single target. The problem with ToTH is obviously that your rotation gets clogged up with ASs. DB hits 9, maybe 10 times for, what, 11k non-crit in SV? That's about 100k damage before crits. Meanwhile, AS averages around 30k for me before crits because of SV mastery - so if I can get 4 free AS in 30s, ToTH pulls ahead of DB DPS wise, and the focus saved (80) is more than the 45-50 focus you get from DB.

    The problem is obviously the 4 GCDs needed to fire those 4 AS, as opposed to the 1 for DB. Plus, you consider what you'd do with the extra 3 GCDs from using DB (probably CoS x 2 to make up for the focus you're behind on) and it's a much closer case. If you can fit in 2 full ToTHs in, in 30 seconds, it'll probably outdo DB just based on the focus savings. The problem is I munch ToTH charges all the time because even free, I want to put other things on CD first, like ES/BA. Not to mention ToTH only stacks to 3 so you munch charges if it overwrites one.

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