1. #1

    Curious about my raid's performance

    Hello all,

    I've been raiding with my guild (as raid leader) for a while now, but it feels like a few (or maybe many) of the people in the group are underperforming for their gear level. Yesterday I finally remembered to turn on World of Logs for our raid, so I was curious if some of you would like to have a look.

    I far from know how each spec works and the details that make the big differences, so I need some help.

    The logs can be found here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eyc2ka8wpgsdq2y3/
    And the guild roster here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/guild/st...el/Lore/roster

    Any insights into this really are greatly appreciated!

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Your best DPS is performing at about the 40th percentile for his spec. That should give you all the perspective you need about the rest of the group's DPS. Healing and tanking are a bit more subjective, but it also seems like you guys are raiding in a far more casual environment. Honestly, if bosses are dying and you guys are having fun, isn't that really what this game is ultimately about?


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  3. #3
    Yeah you aren't going to break any dps records but like the guy above me said, if the bosses die then meh. 5 bosses in one evening isn't bad at all.

    With that dps you can probably kill elegon if you master the mechanics and are patient in practicing.

  4. #4
    Yeah we're not hardcore by any stretch of the imagination, one of the reasons we raid pretty casually at the moment is due to people's availability being... rather spotty. Sure, bosses are dying, sure we're having fun, but the previous week all we managed is killing the same 4 bosses we did the week before that. Yesterday we progressed and killed one more boss.

    Zor'lok's enrage timer isn't tight at all which is nice, but on fights where the timer is a bit tighter we usually have trouble getting a kill in time. This is one of the reasons why we went Zor'lok after 4 kings instead of Elegon, since Elegon has a fairly tight timer and Zor'lok seemed more realistic.

    I'm mainly curious about anything these guys can do to perform better for their gear level. It doesn't seem like all of them are necessarily interested in researching a lot, which is fine - we're a casual guild, but I would really like to help them achieve higher dps if possible.

  5. #5
    Firstly im in agreement with the other posters that at a casual level raiding is about having fun, however, you're casual, not social. Im in a casual guild myself, with some players under performing at times, our progress is 6/6 3/6, while nothing monumental, it still puts us as 9-11th on our server.

    One thing we do enforce though is that anyone raiding must research their spec, even if it's just as far as using noxxic for rotations and mr robot for gemming, enchanting and reforging. Doing those things will take a person 10 minutes tops and can make a huge difference to their performance. Part of the reason behind this is a) to keep everyone on the same base level b) no one is getting carried c) people can see what they're doing wrong and alter it accordingly.
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  6. #6
    Only thing you can do is to tell them to research their class.... can't magically go "Hey, get mastery instead and you will get 20k more dps"

    If they don't understand what they're gemming, or why. Not going to get very far in terms of more damage.

  7. #7
    not trying to be mean, but i pulled off your avg dps on feng in the first week of MGV.
    so basically, yes, you are right. your dps is underperforming heavily.
    in case they are interested in changing something to perform better, maybe link them to icy-veins.com or discuss makros for cooldowns and such things as addons together with them.
    i am in a pretty casual guild myself currently (11/16 nhc) but i do get heavily annoyed by people who underperform and don't even seem to bother with theorycrafting and gearing up...if you guys are more relaxed, then just give them a little love tap.

  8. #8
    I think one of the problems we have in our guild, is that our roster is actually not stable enough. Each week the people we take seems to differ (aside from about 5-6 people being stable) which I guess really doesn't help. I guess one thing I could do is point everyone to noxxic + mr robot and then sort of test them when they claim they have done it by asking them fairly simple questions about information found on those websites.

    Like I said before, we're pretty casual when it comes to the *amount* we raid, but I do expect people to actually take things seriously and put some effort into it. I guess the best thing I can do is recruit some more people to stabilise the group (near impossible to recruit on my realm...) and ask the people I feel confident about to do more research on their class...

  9. #9
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    Ehm.
    The paladin 'turboboots' is he afk'ing alot ?
    On all fights on that log he has less then 20% active time, meaning 80% of the fight he's reading a book or w/e :s
    Priest also has very low uptime.

    i know it sounds trivial but tell people to mash their buttons faster, dont wait for the global cooldown, just spam spam spam

  10. #10
    Honestly I don't know lol, there's so much going on all the time so I can't really see who's casting and whatnot. They're healers though and healing isn't really a big issue for us, it's mainly the dps that needs a swift kick, I think. Thank you for the observation though, I'll be paying a bit more attention to that!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Ehm.
    The paladin 'turboboots' is he afk'ing alot ?
    On all fights on that log he has less then 20% active time, meaning 80% of the fight he's reading a book or w/e :s
    Priest also has very low uptime.

    i know it sounds trivial but tell people to mash their buttons faster, dont wait for the global cooldown, just spam spam spam
    Yes, healers healing instead of dpsing. Really they don't know their job !

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Desh's Avatar
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    Being casual doesn't give you the right to be garbage at your class. I'm the definition of casual for probably the rest of this expansion (LFR hero) but I am by no means shit at this game. For example this is currently the top guild on my old server: http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/...k+Loose+Gaming - It is a 10 man raiding guild that is comprised of very, very skilled raiders that raided in much more hardcore guilds than they do now. They raid 2-3 nights a week and are very well progressed for a guild that barely raids. You can be excellent at your class and still be casual, don't let your raiders give you the excuse "oh but this guild is a casual guild, why should I play my class even somewhat well!? I have FIVE KIDS TO FEED!". Don't put up with that shit.

  13. #13
    I looked at your Feng log since that's as close to stand still and pew pew as we have in MV.

    Your hunters rotations are a bit wacky. For a fight of that length each hunter can potentially get in 78-80 Kill Commands, your hunters combined have 48. Glaive toss is similarly given low priority by your hunters. I see 13 casts by one and 11 by the other. This ability is far more damage per focus cost than arcane, and should thus be prioritized above. There's enough time in the fight for over 30 casts not counting readiness resets.

    Bestial Wrath is also pretty low. Including 2 additional BWs due to readiness, you should see 9 casts in a fight this length. I see 7 on one, and 6 on the other.

    With rotation optimizations both of these hunters could be pulling 70k+ dps on this fight assuming full raid buffs/debuffs.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChapiChapo View Post
    Yes, healers healing instead of dpsing. Really they don't know their job !
    I must have been drunk, hovered over his abilities used and swear i saw prot pala :s

    ------------
    Play prot warrior myself, so had a look and some issues OP(know its you:P)
    Low ability usage, you had potential of ~80 shield slams(not counting procs)
    You did 60.
    Devastate use is also low, resulting in lower snb procs.(you only got 9 procs, which is about once per minute on that fight)
    You could have used recklessness twice
    You could have used avatar 3 times.
    You needed ~16x TC to achieve 100% uptime on WB, you used it 61 times.
    Checking armory you should atleast get 7,5%/7,5% hit/exp, pref 7,5%/15%.
    You gain more rage, so more AM and more dps.

    On stoneguards you're using shield block, shield barrier is the way to go.(rend is not avoidable/blockable, rend buff was 68,3% of your damage taken)

    Lastly, which is more a matter of taste, but since the rage gain loss on avatar, i prefer bloodbath as it syncs very nicely with DR and DC.
    Pretty sure its more dps aswell but no math to back it up.

    In you're gear the aim should be 80k+ dps, if tanking both dogs.

    Got bored after that
    Last edited by santa666; 2012-12-06 at 05:34 PM.

  15. #15
    @Desh: Yeah, that's kinda where I want to go as well. I want to raid 2-3 days per week, preferably 2. Trying to aim for 3 now so we can at least progress somewhat until we've killed everything, then we can dial it down a bit. I agree that being casual is no excuse for being shit which is one of the reasons why I posted here. I don't know all these classes so it's very hard for me to go lecture people about how they should play their class. Sure, there's plenty of guides and what not telling you the general guidelines, but there's subtleties to each class/spec you can only appreciate if you actually play said class/spec.

    @Grizzles: Thanks for the fairly detailed analysis of our hunter's performance! Is there any chance you could give me a rundown (somewhat) of what rotation you personally use and how you distribute your cooldowns? This might go a long way in helping me help my hunters improve their dps.

    @santa666: lol : D

    Thanks everyone so far, this feedback is greatly appreciated!

  16. #16
    You seem to be getting the answers here that you want, but in the end it all comes down to you as the raid leader and the raid group. Figure out what your goals are and make sure that they all align. If people are frustrated by lack of progression that suggests that some level of progression is part of your raid's goals and you need to decide what that is as a group. As another poster mentioned, casual doesn't have to mean "bad". You can be casual in the amount of time you devote to playing but still serious about the way you approach that time or you can be casual about everything.

    So, the answer to your OP is a resounding yes! However if that matters to your group or not is a very different story. Ask your group what their goals are, ask them what they are willing to do to meet those goals and make sure everything is reasonable.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelen View Post
    @Desh: Yeah, that's kinda where I want to go as well. I want to raid 2-3 days per week, preferably 2. Trying to aim for 3 now so we can at least progress somewhat until we've killed everything, then we can dial it down a bit. I agree that being casual is no excuse for being shit which is one of the reasons why I posted here. I don't know all these classes so it's very hard for me to go lecture people about how they should play their class. Sure, there's plenty of guides and what not telling you the general guidelines, but there's subtleties to each class/spec you can only appreciate if you actually play said class/spec.
    Okay, that tells us the amount of time you want to spend but how seriously do you expect your raiders to approach those 2-3 nights each week? We're a 2-night guild that's currently 6/6H in MGV and feel we are a little behind due to early roster issues, but this is because we expect the people we play with to take those 8 hours a week extremely seriously and know know their class at a top world level. There's also guilds that don't care if you want to be a melee hunter and are just using raiding as a way to hang out and relax. Presumably you're somewhere in the middle and as I mentioned before, figure out what your goals as a group are before you set what the expectations will be for players so you can meet those goals.
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  17. #17
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    This is a handy little resource if you want to see who is using abilities or standing in bad stuff. http://raidbots.com/comparebot/50c0d...01458#mistakes

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  18. #18
    @CDShaidar: I definitely want to progress and I know at least *some* people in my guild want it as much as I do. The problem is I'm on a fairly low-pop RP realm which makes recruitment very hard. I've been trying to recruit more people in order to stabilise our raid roster since, as I mentioned, it fluctuates a little too much for my liking which is probably partially responsible for our poor progress, despite 3 weeks of raiding.

    The way I want to be casual is, like your guild, in the amount of time spent in raids, not how serious we are about it. That said, probably not everyone in my group is as focussed on getting 100% out of their class as others are.

    @SurrealNight: Thanks, I'll definitely be using that in conjunction to World of Logs!

    Once again, thanks for the insights, they really do help a lot.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Desh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    Okay, that tells us the amount of time you want to spend but how seriously do you expect your raiders to approach those 2-3 nights each week? We're a 2-night guild that's currently 6/6H in MGV and feel we are a little behind due to early roster issues, but this is because we expect the people we play with to take those 8 hours a week extremely seriously and know know their class at a top world level. There's also guilds that don't care if you want to be a melee hunter and are just using raiding as a way to hang out and relax. Presumably you're somewhere in the middle and as I mentioned before, figure out what your goals as a group are before you set what the expectations will be for players so you can meet those goals.
    Exactly. It's the overall attitude of the guild that kills bosses, not just skilled players. You could have the best players in the world in a guild but if they aren't taking it seriously and would rather just fuck around all night they're going to get anywhere.

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