[Prot] When to stack Haste?

[Deleted]

I cannot post links yet, so you can look up my armory, i'm Negation on Nemesis EU (hands and legs are upgraded to 504 itemlevel).
My question is: when I can start stacking haste over mastery?
I don't know if it's a dumb question, but I found nothing about it over the internetz (EJ, Sacred Duty, Maintankadin).
My current stats totally UNBUFFED are:
Hit: +7.55% (2.226)
Expertise: +15.03% (5.109)
Mastery: 18.67% (6.400)
Melee Haste: +1.71% (727)

I opened my character on Rawr and tried to change a couple of pieces (that I'm currently using for Retribution), regemming and re-reforging. What i had was:
Hit: +7.76% (2.300)
Expertise: +15.10% (5.135)
Mastery: 14.52% (3.911)
Melee Haste: +8.97% (3.812)

Currently we are progressing over normal HoF, so my gear isn't a concern yet, but I like min-maxing where I can and when my gear allows it.
At the moment I don't have any +haste trinket (except for Darkmist Vortex RF), but I'm hoping to get my Lei Shen's Final Order (Normal) drop next week *-*.
What can you suggest me? Stick with mastery stacking or switch into haste?

Thank you in advance and sorry for any English mistake :P

[Deleted]

I used a similar Mastery then into Haste model for my progression raiding. It's entirely a matter of deciding your own comfort zones for the content you're doing. Personally I take 55% my 'soft cap', but on a fight like HM sha I'm currently pushing as high as 58%, but that is specialised.

The problem is simply optimising such low percentiles of haste. Like 2% haste is 0.09s off your CS. So in some cases you may not even be able to utilise the haste you've acquired. As a result some chose to wait until they have the budget available to pick up =<5% haste where the benefits are easier to harness.

Ultimately the only person who can make the decision is you based on your own experiences. Any approach should be functional as long as there's logic behind it. It's the reason you see people championing all kinds of sets up, and basically ever AM set up represented in the top ~10 guilds

I'd like to have a smoother rotation, but, like you said, the increase with my current gear won't be noticeable.
I'll stick with mastery, waiting for more gear
Thank you a lot!

[Deleted]

I'd like to have a smoother rotation, but, like you said, the increase with my current gear won't be noticeable.
I'll stick with mastery, waiting for more gear
Thank you a lot!

Best tip I can give you is just to play around with your gear yourself and feel what your most comfortable with. However I can say that I think

"It is not enough stat to be a noticable difference" is one of the most stupid arguments in the history of WoW.

Remember some people saying "Well, I only got 3% haste so it is barely a difference".
Yes true, but if you spend those 3% of haste points into mastery or whatever, not like that difference is any bigger.

It is basically like saying. "I will not take a zip of a beer glass because it is only a zip, I will take a zip of soda instead".

Even met a guy once that had a few dodge and parry gems "its only 320 rating bro"

[Soloz]

I wouldn't really wait for a specific mastery rating to switch to haste, honestly with 0 mastery you get 38% dr I believe and add 3000 from might and thats roughly 42% and that should be enough for anything really.

You will most likely not end up with 0 mastery so you can safely say you will be around 45-48% which is very good on its own, so stacking haste now would be a good route to go since it will increase you masterys effectiveness by having it up more often, just make sure to be mashing them keys like a dps to get the most out of haste

[Deleted]

So you're saying it's reasonable to expect a player doing normal modes to be able to absolutely utilise 0.05s off his CS CD? That rating in Mastery may be mild but at least it's consistently harnessed. Don't act like everything's a sim, you can't expect players to utilise such low reductions on their cds. If goblin paladins were announced tomorrow and you jumped on it for the mystical 1% haste you'd be lucky to even notice it there.

Players are free to do whatever they want with their own gear, but to dismiss a perfectly valid reason because it goes against your favourite thing to write about on a forum; that's not keen at all.

Did you even read what I wrote? I mean, you got so much ha(s)te towards me that it is beyond insane. What is your problem? Have I corrected your errors to many times? Getting kinda sick of your constant hate posts, I have tried to respond kindly to you, but some people are not that easy to talk to.

Best tip I can give you is just to play around with your gear yourself and feel what your most comfortable with.

That was what I wrote, I wrote NOTHING about which stat he should go, absolutely NOTHING. You are the one always dismissing other peoples completely valid reasons to go a specific route. Your stupidity is really beyond me. Is your head really that far up your own ass?
Really, extremely funny how you always comment on the "haste vs mastery bla bla", even though you are the one starting the haste vs mastery in every thread, every single time.

I said that I hate the argument about <insert stat> that "I am currently geared x but thinking to go y but I dont have enough y to make it worth it". Well then that minimal x won't make difference either.

Now lets say x and y is haste and mastery for funs sake. That 0.05s reduction or 0.1% damage reduction will not mean fuck all if you take that few rating in haste or mastery, period. Does not matter if you raid normal mode, lfr, dungeons or whatever.

Players are free to do whatever they want with their own gear, but to dismiss a perfectly valid reason because it goes against your favourite thing to write about on a forum; that's not keen at all.

Feels like you are replying to yourself. Exactly what I wrote is that he is free to do whatever he want I and I encouraged him to do whatever he wants with his gear. Your the one constantly dismissing perfectly valid reasons to do something because it goes against your favorite thing to write about on the forum, just saying.

If you want something to back that up with, just go through some of the latest paladin thread. I can not seem to make a reply in a thread without you replying something really condecending only because it goes against your one and only way of gearing prot paladin. I rarely even comment on what you write except when you are even more wrong than usual.

The problem is simply optimising such low percentiles of haste. Like 2% haste is 0.09s off your CS. So in some cases you may not even be able to utilise the haste you've acquired. As a result some chose to wait until they have the budget available to pick up =<5% haste where the benefits are easier to harness.

Actually, it is exactly the opposite. The benefits per haste rating is easier to harness the less haste you have. Does not really take alot of thought to figure that out. The more you lower cooldowns, the faster your rotation gets, the more you need to speed up, the more errors you will do and you be further of from the full potential. If you have reduced your CD by 0.09 seconds, you do not need to adjust your rotation speed very much, however, if you lowered it by say 1 second, then your rotation changed significantly in speed. Naturally, with more haste you get more benefit (duh), though the more haste you have the harder it becomes to maximise the stat. Having haste at 2% as you suggest is almost as easy as it gets to benefit from its full potential.If you can not utilise haste at 2%, then you can never do it.

Now, you are going to misinterpret me and think what I am saying is that 2% haste is gamebreaking. That is far from, and in fact the opposite what I am saying. You will not be able to clearly notice the benefits from haste until you get up on the values, even though they are there. I do not think haste is that strong at lower values, but hey, 2% haste or 2% mastery does not really matter, neither is game breaking if you are doing normals. Go with what you feel like is best. Your post was simply about harnessing the benefits and that is always easier to do the lower haste you have.

So you're saying it's reasonable to expect a player doing normal modes to be able to absolutely utilise 0.05s off his CS CD?

I find it hillarious how much you contradict your own logic Atleast you gave me a laugh. You could take a minute to think about what you just said

[Deleted]

I'm usually the one who jumps in on this kind of discussion but this time, brb popcorn.

[Deleted]

I'm usually the one who jumps in on this kind of discussion but this time, brb popcorn.

Kinda how I feel aswell. Brb chips.


@Choice

What if I told you that you can get 600-700 mastery without sacrificing any other rating, stamina or armor with a very simply gear fix. /morpheus
Though of course you would know all about that. I am sure you do not even want 800 more mastery for Sha HC as mastery is horrible there. *Cough*



@OT

If you want a real answer about your question. "When to stack haste".

The first thing you got to ask yourself is, should you stack haste?
There are several factors involved here.
First off, what is your raid size? I am going to presume it is 10 man. In 10 man haste has more value than in 25 man. Naturally because secondary stats got higher value in 10 man and stamina got lower value in 10 man causing 25 and 10 gearing to be very different.
Haste is also lower in value in 25 man because the tanks dps and hps is a lower % of the raid, causing the increased hps and dps haste carrying less weight in 25 man. If you do 20k more dps in 10 man it is more noticable than 20k more in 25 man.

Second of all, how does your group look like? Are you raiding with another plate tank? Are you the only plate tank?
Do you have any plate dps? If you are raiding with 2 plate dps and a druid tank, maybe taking their haste gear and disenchanting the "tank" gear is not the best option. For me, we have 0 plate dps and a warrior co-tank so the choice was easy. Let the warrior take all the "tank" gear and I take the "dps" gear.

How is your dps? Is your dps slacking ( This has been one of my main reasons to prefer haste ). The dps in my group was very undergeared and some slacking so if I could push out 20k more dps without straining healers and still never die, why not?
I usually top the dps on alot of the vengeance heavier fights. Did 110k on tsulong normal this week, closest dps was barely on 80-90k.
I also topped on sha of fear, feng hc and of course the tank fights that does not even need to be mentioned. ( Not saying my own dps is great, more so that my groups dps is not where it should be ). Though my groups dps being as low as it should be, naturally made my own DPS more important. If we are struggling with dps and I can fix that problem, why would I not do that?

Third. How well can you perform your rotation? Since you speak about min-maxing I presume that you know how to press your buttons well. Though you still got to ask yourself this.

What is your playstyle like? Try to take a few minutes, consider how gearing stamina, or haste, or mastery will make you tank in different ways. What route do you think fits your playstyle the best? Ultimately, noone here can tell you how to gear your character. Not the sticky, not me, not kapsu, not choice, not anyone. You must decide how to gear your own character. We can give you input what worked for us, how we are going at it. Though you have to make an active decision about what fits you, your playstyle and your raid group the best.

As said before, best tip I can give you. Try out different things. Try stamina stacking. Try mastery stacking. Try haste stacking. Try using 2 stamina trinkets. Try using 0 stamina trinkets. Try different things out! That is the best way you can figure out what works best for you and improve yourself. There is no one magic way to gear a tank. No secret limit that "You need atleast x rating or y iLvL to stack z."

How did I do personally? When I leveled up I grinded a lot of gear sets. I had a mastery set, a stamina set, a haste set, a dodge/parry set. Different sets with or without hit/exp caps. I tried them all out in blues. I have been stacking haste since that, in blue gear, and it worked out fine for me. I am currently collecting a mastery set AFTER our other tank got it for those very few fights that benefit mastery.
Disclaimer: This is what worked for me personally and in no way am I saying that this is what you should do End Disclaimer

[Deleted]

Yep, I'm in a 10m guild and sometimes dps in an issue (tight enrage timers >.>), so I went full haste and managed to get 9.47%, which decreases the cooldown on CS by 0.39 seconds...and it's good!
As you said, I have to try it out by myself! So next week I'll see what will happen

Thank you a lot for your adivices!

[Deleted]

So, with only 10% haste. How do you feel with the flow? Do you feel like you can still keep up a fluent rotation? Could you handle even more haste?

Those are important questions to ask yourself before getting more

Also just in general, do you like the playstyle?

[Loxxie]

I'm running with 20% haste atm, pulling my CS cd down to 3.75 (3sec with BL) and Judgement cd down to 5sec (4 with BL). Thats 8502 rating, I'm gonna let that be my "cap" for now, and start building up my mastery to increase my dr.

I really do like the playstyle though, and the amount of Holy power you get is amazing, coupled with the fact that your dps shoots up too, its a win/win thing.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Jesper/simple
My Armory

[Deleted]

I feel very comfortable and I can surely handle more haste (doing the rotation during heroism is awesome).
I began tanking with a DK in wotlk, so having a smoother rotation on my paladin is a nice thing Obv I need moar and moar gear since our progression and RNG don't help :<

[Haaz]

personally i'm going haste over mastery all the way.. sitting about 7,5k haste and 4,5k mastery. I would advice going haste as soon as possible.. it allso increases ur healing from SoI with glyph of the battle healer, on cleave fights like wind lord I will outheal the healers by faar and basicly keep myself up with the vegeance. haste all the way

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Haaza/advanced

Note that I'm going with divine purpose aswell.. as it scales nicely with haste.. for more uptime on dmg reduction from sotr, makes up for having less avoidance.

[monikasun88]

I have a follow-up question to this. Does it benefit you to raise mastery to a certain point (for example say 12% or 15%) before maxing haste for the benefit that mastery provides to shield of the righteous kind of used in conjunction to haste? Why don't people seek to find some kind of balance between the two? If I am slightly undergeared for the content, which route haste/mastery is it better to go in a 10 man?

[MerinPally]

Calm your tits people this is the paladin forums, no handbags at dawn, we are not squabbling death knights.

@Monikasun88 - there aren't any plateaus like there are for other classes with stacking haste to a certain point to get that extra tick as haste and mastery for us just give shorter CD/more damage reduction as it comes so there aren't any breakpoints The only exception to this is Sacred Shield ticks but it's hardly worth worrying about unless you're going for really top end heroics so I wouldn't worry in most situations. Haste appears harder to get going because you won't have much/any naturally on your gear and you'll be so busy getting hit/exp capped that you won't get a lot on your gear but it will all work out for itself in the end. Alternatively, if you take Sanctified Wrath you only need 7.5% expertise as opposed to 15% which for the haste build can make you feel more comfortable in terms of your stats.

It really is all about feeling comfortable. To quote a Bollywood film I saw recently despite not speaking a word of hindi, it will all work itself out in the end, and if it's not yet worked out then it's not yet the end. That was one of the bits of the film I understood as it half flitted between english and hindi. I think it was called 3 Idiots.

As long as you stick to either the haste or mastery build as detailed on the guide, you'll struggle to fuck it up so do not worry

[Deleted]

I have a follow-up question to this. Does it benefit you to raise mastery to a certain point (for example say 12% or 15%) before maxing haste for the benefit that mastery provides to shield of the righteous kind of used in conjunction to haste? Why don't people seek to find some kind of balance between the two? If I am slightly undergeared for the content, which route haste/mastery is it better to go in a 10 man?

Given the opportunity to pick up haste gear, that your dps will not hang you that is. It is almost always better to gear haste for 10 mans ( and stamina mastery for 25 ) simply because of how weak the bosses hit in 10 man and how important tank dps is. There are some fights in 10 man that favors mastery though the majority favors haste. I would personally not go for a balance. I will see how I feel after the 50% 'soft cap'


@Merin Even with SW expertise is still good, it is simply less valuable for raw HoPo regen however it still pulls weight in terms of consistency. ( However this is not really important until heroic mode raiding ). And even without SW haste still pulls over expertise for the first 18% or o in terms of raw HoPo regen.

[Fhi]

Be nice, people. It's okay to attack an argument, not okay to attack another poster personally.

/soothing ocean noises

~Fhi

[Haaz]

as soon as u get 4 set aswell wich gives 10% more reduction from SotR makes haste even more lovely. with divine purpose procs aswell mish allmost makes SotR spammamble with alot of haste u can stack op the buff and keep 80%+ uptime. Not like u will see spike dmg at this point. And well depending on preferance. a haste build is more fun to play

[Deleted]

as soon as u get 4 set aswell wich gives 10% more reduction from SotR makes haste even more lovely. with divine purpose procs aswell mish allmost makes SotR spammamble with alot of haste u can stack op the buff and keep 80%+ uptime. Not like u will see spike dmg at this point. And well depending on preferance. a haste build is more fun to play

And more DPS/heal with Battle Healer, which is surely a nice bonus - always nice to outheal a healer