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  1. #1
    Deleted

    Windwalker Improvement Thread

    Introduction

    So I wanted to make a consolidation thread which allowed people to talk constructively about where they feel Windwalkers can be improved and how. I do not want this to turn into a bitch fest, that is the domain of blizzard forums. If we can put some constructive thoughts down, preferable backed up with logs and numbers then hopefully we will have something productive to put to Blizzard, even if all someone does is copy and paste this into the US forum. I will update this post as and when changes happen and also edit it to reflect the current concerns as we go hopefully providing somewhere where anyone and jump into the fold without having to read back through 30 pages on 3 different forums.

    Major Areas of Concern

    Raid Utility

    Utility Defined

    Update - Still a very current issue

    For the sake of clarity the term "utility" in this thread refers to an ability that has a posative effect on the raid and will be used in most or all fights. For instance Cone of Cold I would not consider to be raid utility but Shattering Throw would be. Something that would make a monk be considered for a raid for reasons more than just their primary role (in this case dps).

    I have compiled a list of all DPS raid utility. Only spells that are usable in all specs or specifically DPS specs are on the list as this is a thread about where Windwalkers are and not Brewmaster and Mistweaver.

    Druid
    Innervate
    Rebirth
    Stampeding Roar
    Tranquility
    Symbiosis
    Cenarion Ward
    Nature's Vigil

    Death Knight
    Raise Ally
    Unholy Frenzy
    Anti-Magic Zone
    Gorefiend's Grasp

    Hunter
    Misdirection
    Aspect of the Pack
    Ice Trap
    Entrapment

    Mage
    Time Warp
    Ring of Frost

    Paladin
    Devotion Aura
    Hand of Sacrifice
    Hand of Protection
    Hand of Freedom
    Lay on Hands
    Sacred Shield
    Hand of Purity
    Clemency

    Priest
    Hymn of Hope
    Leap of Faith
    Void Shift
    Angelic Feather

    Rogue
    Tricks of the Trade
    Poisons
    Smoke Bomb

    Shaman
    Stormlash Totem
    Heroism
    Healing Tide Totem

    Warlock
    Create Healthstone
    Soulstone
    Demonic Gateway

    Warrior
    Rallying Cry
    Intervene
    Shattering Throw
    Demoralizing Banner
    Skull Banner
    Mass Spell Reflection
    Safeguard
    Vigilance

    Monk

    Zen Meditation
    Tiger's Lust

    So, it's pretty clear that from all the dps classes Windwalker really do have underwhelming utility. Compared to other classes, with the possible exception of rogues and mages, Windwalkers have arguably the weakest raid utility of all classes. Zen Meditation went from a very strong CD to a very limited one, one which in most cases will be used as a personal CD which actually crosses over into one of Windwalkers strengths, survivability.

    Discussions on what Windwalker monk would need to make them comparable to other classes would be appreciated.

    Option 1

    Bring back Invoke Chi-Ji, the Red Crane or a remodeled version of this.

    Addition of alternative idea from other thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Song of the Red Crane: Talent
    +6000 mastery for 20 seconds. (5m "deafness" debuff that may or may not be the same as RotWT's. Most healers and tanks would love having +20% mastery for even that short a time. Might be too strong for Disc Priests.)
    Option 2

    Redesign Zen Meditation to something useful. Not asking for the original version back, because that was crazy strong, but something useful.

    Option 3

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Roar of the White Tiger: Talent
    +20% crit chance for 15 seconds. (10m "deafness" debuff. This would couple very well with Skull Banner)
    Lack of Cleave/AoE

    Update - Whilst we do lack cleave, our AoE has proven to be pretty strong, conclusion: concerns in this area were probably unwarrented

    So currently we have Xuen as one of our cleaves once very 3 mintues, which is far from viable for normal cleave type fights. Secondly we have FoF which spread it's damage across all targets therefor not a classical cleave and also not very effective.

    So what are the options to change this?

    Option 1

    Bring back Tigereye Brandy

    Tigereye Brandy (LVL 64)
    1 Chi, Instant, 90 second cooldown
    Requires Tiger Stance
    Causes your Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick to also hit 3 additional nearby enemies within 5 yards when they deal damage for 20 seconds.

    Option 2

    A viable AoE/cleave Chi dump. Since our level 30 talents have been heavily nerfed damage wise, we really don't have a great option for dumping chi

    Single Target DPS

    25/08/2012

    Update - Whilst we do lack any real burst our single target damage is very competative right now, with the fix to FoF scaling and new Ascension allowing gearing towards crit, our scaling with gear seems to be in a better place too, conclusion: Single target dps is not a problem for monks atm

    I am currently in contact some of the top guilds to get feedback on Windwalkers. One thing that is coming up atm is that WW single target dps seems to be very competitive (top melee single target dps). This is anecdotal and has not been backed up with logs as of yet but as this thread is not really focusing on single target dps it will do for now, I will continue to update this as and when more feedback comes in.

    Viable Interupt

    Update - Blizzard have recognised the issue and reduced the cost, problem solved

    A quick comparison with other melee interrupts reveals one that stands out significantly by means of cost:

    Mind Freeze -No cost
    Pummel - No cost
    Skull Bash - 15 Energy or 10 Rage
    Kick - 15 energy
    Rebuke - 11.7% of base mana
    Wind Shear - 9.4% of base mana
    Spear Hand Strike - 30 Energy

    As you can see the monk interrupt is twice as expensive as the next closest melee interrupt.


    *added suggestions for Raid Utility
    *added suggestions for Cleave
    *added Viable Interrupt section
    *added Utility Definition
    *added updates for current build 5.1
    *added some interesting ideas from other threads
    Last edited by mmocc94c810497; 2012-12-10 at 04:42 PM. Reason: updated skull bash

  2. #2
    perhaps they could give monks something like blade flurry. Have Jab cleave additional targets when activated but cost 50% more energy? Monks may have weaker buffs but compared to rogues and mages, a monk can heal or tank for a fight their dps is weak on, like cleaving fights. A rogue or mage wll simply be removed from the roster.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    I will post my thoughts here instead of the OP in an attempt to keep it as a reference point and not just a diary of my thoughts.

    Here are some of my ideas for the cleave problem:

    One choice is to make one ability auto cleave (passively hit more than one target), generally a very weak option, having played a fury warrior since T5 I can tell you this is a pain in the arse, it can be very restrictive and you would not be able to use the ability where cleaving is not an option, this means it can't be part of the normal rotation. One option for this auto cleave could be expel harm as it's not part of the normal rotation and it is on a reasonable CD.

    Another choice could be to add a new mechanic, similar to Sweeping Strikes or Blade Flurry whilst I think it would work really well I can't see Blizzard just copy pasting another classes ability as they want everyone to have their own flavour.

    Finally you could find a way to spread BoK dot and possibly amplify it, somewhat similar to unholy DK disease spreading (100% extra damage when spread) using FoF to spread and refresh the dot would be a decent option as you would not have to worry about accidental cleaving, if you built this into a glyph that removes the stun and allows it to do equal damage to all targets this would give us some nice burst cleave with a reasonable dot, shouldn't be too OP but would give us something to play with. Would like to hear peoples thoughts on these.
    Last edited by mmocc94c810497; 2012-08-21 at 05:28 PM.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Nice post! Now to get blizzard to read it...

    offtopic: It seems you have used in-game spell links as urls... if you want tooltips for your spells you should use the wowdb urls, like
    Code:
    [ url=http://www.wowdb.com/spells/xxx]spell name[/url]
    where xxx is the spell id.

    Like Innervate
    Last edited by mmoc2e7b040398; 2012-08-21 at 04:46 PM.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    I'll give it a try, not done alot of posting on these forums so just hit the link button and pasted the wowhead url

    I'll start converting them over, not like a spent hours writing and re-writing the original post >.<

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Valient View Post
    Another choice could be to add a new mechanic, similar to Sweeping Strikes or Blade Flurry whilst I think it would work really well I can't see Blizzard just copy pasting another classes ability as they want everyone to have their own flavour.
    Blade Flurry and Sweeping Strikes are similar functions but still distinct. There's only so much you can do w/o stepping on toes. Arguably heart strike is the same as "cleave" for warriors even though they have slight differences in the damage they deal and how they deal it. Paladins switch to a seal to cleave with CS as well. For monks you'd need a move that either cleaved to generate Chi at the cost of energy or expended Chi. Beyond that its going to be analogous to the other classes. Passive cleave would be a nuissance.
    The other option is just leaving monks where they are. Not every spec/class needs a cleave or to be good at it. Sub and Assassination rogues suck at "cleave" fights but its hardly a good enough reason to not roll them. So while a monk may fall behind on cleave fights compared to a warrior or combat rogue, no one is going to hold it against them.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    I agree with you to an extent, it's pointless QQing about how other classes have stuff that we don't and there for we want it too.

    Historically, melee classes have been the cleave classes and ranged have been the AoE classes. If you look at the end of cata, all melee classes had the ability to cleave or AoE to varying degrees, they made it pretty clear that was the intention by making changes to enhancement that significantly increased there cleave ability bring them closer to all the other melee classes. If things go live the way they are, not only will we not have much cleave, but we will be hugely behind all the other melee classes in any cleave environment. I'm not proposing we get T13 style combustion ability, but something that at least makes us feel like we are contributing to cleaves would be good.

    The idea of this thread is to try to come up with something balanced that Blizzard might consider and allow the WW community to get involved with the discussion and development of their class
    Last edited by mmocc94c810497; 2012-08-21 at 05:37 PM.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    One thing i think would help quite a bit is if the way FoF handles additional targets beyond the primary one is changed to something similar to how Shaman's chain lightning works. The shared dmg thing just feels wrong to me.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by KarachiDK View Post
    One thing i think would help quite a bit is if the way FoF handles additional targets beyond the primary one is changed to something similar to how Shaman's chain lightning works. The shared dmg thing just feels wrong to me.
    The problem with that is FoF is not a targeted spell, so i'm not sure how it would determine which is the "primary" target.

  10. #10
    Regarding utility, I'd add:

    Rogue:
    Smoke Bomb
    Shroud of Concealment

    Smoke Bomb in particular is basically just a more potent version of Zen Meditation's raid utility function.

    That's my primary complaint about Windwalkers. I'm not playing one, but as a guild leader, I've found no reason to try to stack Windwalkers over other melee class, since assuming DPS is reasonably well balanced among all classes, you gain nothing by having a Windwalker over some other melee, which does the same DPS and brings more to the raid by their presence.

    Why bring a Windwalker to do N DPS when you can bring a feral druid to bring N +/-5% DPS and also gain another Symbiosis?
    Last edited by Shamanberry; 2012-08-21 at 05:55 PM.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamanberry View Post
    Regarding utility, I'd add:

    Rogue:
    Smoke Bomb
    Shroud of Concealment

    Smoke Bomb in particular is basically just a more potent version of Zen Meditation's raid utility function.

    That's my primary complaint about Windwalkers. I'm not playing one, but as a guild leader, I've found no reason to try to stack Windwalkers over other melee class, since assuming DPS is reasonably well balanced among all classes, you gain nothing by having a Windwalker over some other melee, which does the same DPS and brings more to the raid by their presence.

    Why bring a Windwalker to do N DPS when you can bring a feral druid to bring N +/-5% DPS and also gain another Symbiosis?
    I deliberately left Shroud of Concealment out as I can't really see how it would be useful in a raid situation, the rogue needs to be stealthed so unless you can use it creatively in a raid I can only see it being a gimmick in the raid environment, if you have some evidence to the contrary then I can add it to the list. Smoke Bomb again I'm not sure how this will work in a raid, I cleared 8/8 h DS without seeing our rogues use smoke bomb once (not to say it has no use, but it's predominantly a PvP ability as far as I can see) i'll add smoke bomb to the list, but I want to try and keep it as clean as possible without padding the list with abilities that aren't really relevant.

    As for the point about taking a WW to a raid, this is exactly why this thread is here, if they left Zen Meditation as it was, then that would be a start, but for now, player skill aside, WW monks are behind other classes. I'm not asking for more of everything, just something that pulls us back into the pack a bit more.
    Last edited by mmocc94c810497; 2012-08-21 at 06:12 PM.

  12. #12
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Where's Spinning Crane Kick, Rising Sun Kick, and Jade Wind? Not to mention that the whole of tier 30 talents are AoE healing/damage abilities.

  13. #13
    I think Blizzard is more likely to listen to discussions about why this is a problem than suggestions for new abilities. Players like to get creative, but I think the better feedback is to list why you feel the current design is a problem. Which the first post here definitely does.

    Rushing Jade Wind may help a little for fights that call for a lot of cleave/AOE, and it may be worth dumping Xuen for just those fights.

    There are a few other classes and specs with AOE issues I think. I think the devs are really conflicted about AOE and they like to get cute with AOE design and what will happen is a repeat of t11, where the lucky folks get invites and everyone else with bad AOE gets sat until Blizzard figures out they have to really balance AOE as much as they balance single target.

    Utility: high surivability on its own can be decent utility, especially through cooldowns. See: Rogues. Tricksing one DPS isn't all that much utility either. That's probably the tradeoff they are going for here - high survivability, low group utility.

    Melee benefits/drawbacks:

    Mobility - a major strong point for WW, despite being throttled by FoF. FoF really serves nothing more than to put Monks behind Warriors in this category. The tradeoff here is likely that, unlike Warriors, we don't need a target to Roll to like Warriors need targets to Charge.

    Group Utility - a definite weak spot for WWs.

    Survivability CDs - WWs are quite possibly the best in this department. There's so many defensive options. The tradeoff here is for group utility. Basically we're Rogues in this department except we trade Tricks for grounding totem+dispersion.

    Interrupts - probably another monk weak point but this responsibility is more on tanks than melee dps nowadays anyway.

    Target switching - a monk strong point. Remember all that Rogue QQ about CPs on the target? CPs, meet Chi.

    Burst - Another monk strong point, once you have all your self buffs up. Lack of dependence on too many DOTs means big numbers. We can also store up a few Chi points and dump it all relatively quick. Maybe not as bursty as a Warrior or some of the casters, but pretty bursty.

    Resource - Energy is a great system. It keeps you from being GCD locked (I know some folks like that but it does give you a bit more leeway), and you can pool and plan around it. Chi > CPs.

    You get strong points and weak points, you don't get to be amazing at everything.

    The AOE/cleave issues are probably the most concerning when it comes to class stacking. If there's a real disparity in AOE damage again there could be a problem. Its one thing to have a Rogue spec with weak AOE/Cleave, but WW is the only way Monks can DPS, so we need good AOE.

    I wonder how useful it would be to get BoK DOTs up on multiple targets?

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where's Spinning Crane Kick, Rising Sun Kick, and Jade Wind? Not to mention that the whole of tier 30 talents are AoE healing/damage abilities.
    AoE and Cleave are different things, that is why none of the above have been mentioned in full, you would not use them on 2-3 mobs, other than RSK which does not cleave but would still be part of a cleave rotation thanks to the debuff.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 10:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    I wonder how useful it would be to get BoK DOTs up on multiple targets?
    Having put some more thought into this, I think for it to work and not be too OP it would need to be target limited something like Living Bomb. I think BoK spreading to 3 targets would be a fairly reasonable cleave, effectively it would only increase the damage of BoK by 60% which is not game breaking but a nice step forward, not entirely sure the best method of activation though, would probably need something like blade flurry toggle on/off as we don't really have a spare ability or alternative they could give a chi generator like Keg Smash (hell, they could just give us Keg Smash itself) which would replace Jab and spread BoK dot.

    Just spit balling really, but would like to hear what people think or any new suggestion they may have themselves.
    Last edited by mmocc94c810497; 2012-08-21 at 08:45 PM.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Too bad the BoK dot is only a few % of our total damage.

  16. #16
    I like the blackout kick dot spread and the expel harm cleave idea why not mix them into an unholy alliance. Have expel harm spread the blackout kick dot and amplify it by lets just say 5 or whatever they decide.

  17. #17
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valient View Post
    AoE and Cleave are different things, that is why none of the above have been mentioned in full, you would not use them on 2-3 mobs, other than RSK which does not cleave but would still be part of a cleave rotation thanks to the debuff.
    I understand that, but you listed it up there as Lack of Cleave/AoE. WW Monks have plenty of AoE; SCK, FSK, RSK, Zen Sphere, Chi Wave, Chi Blast, Chi Torpedo, Xuen, RJW, Leg Sweep, etc.

    I guess I'm just not seeing the issue. If the goal is to hit more than one target, WW Monks have that covered.

  18. #18
    Honestly, I feel like there's too much utility around these days. Instead of bringing Monks up to par with the other classes, should bring them back inline with Monks... the less "Raid utility" around, the more we can focus on "Bring the player not the class".

    Don't get me wrong, classes need their "flavor" abilites. But if less of that flavor directly buffed the rest of the raid, the less streamlining we'd see.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2012-08-22 at 12:48 AM.

  19. #19
    Zen sphere, Chi wave and Chi blast all had their damage reduced by 60 %. Dont think they were intended to be used as damage abilities, for AoE or otherwise.
    Quote from blue post "There are some nerfs coming to the level 30 row, that should resolve this. It’s not intended that the level 30 row is a pure DPS increase for Windwalkers, but should provide a very strong option for trading a little damage for a lot of healing."

  20. #20
    I like the BOK dot / expel harm cleave idea. I do think something like this is needed. I'm fine with our cleave not being as high as warriors / rogues as long as our single target makes up for it. Every class needs it's pros and cons - however some remotely useful cleave is needed at the moment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I understand that, but you listed it up there as Lack of Cleave/AoE. WW Monks have plenty of AoE; SCK, FSK, RSK, Zen Sphere, Chi Wave, Chi Blast, Chi Torpedo, Xuen, RJW, Leg Sweep, etc. I guess I'm just not seeing the issue. If the goal is to hit more than one target, WW Monks have that covered.
    Cleave is to hit more than more target dealing more spread out damage than you can if you single target.

    Zen Sphere, Chi Blast and Chi wave all had their damage reduced by 60%, they are supposed to be the Monk equivalent of Recup. Damage loss for healing gain, not cleave. Again you can only choose one of these, it's not like all are at our disposal.

    Rushing Jade wind, Xuen and Chi torpedo all have cleave aspects, however Xuen is the only really good one and is a 3min CD. These kinda CDs are a bit of a challenge if you want to save them for cleave areas, your single target will suffer a lot.

    Leg sweep is an AoE stun, most boss encounters do not have stun-able targets (only one I can think of is Rag and Sinestra?), it also does no damage and can not be called a 'cleave' by the standards associated with the term.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Go put some pants on.

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