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  1. #21
    You cannot be defending HotW. Come on... that was just wrong. It wasnt intended to be a dps cooldown in the first place, it was intended to put out about the same numbers in melee unfriendly phases. And it did... just not counting the fact that people were switching to spell power weapons.
    Sure it was fun to spam wrath for 45 sec but it was OP as well.

    I dunno what you guys are all about when you say that ferals are not in a really good spot atm. We have tons of utility because of our talents (I normally put out around 10-12k hps on a fight with ps procs and/or nature's vigil. With DoC that is a lot lower though) and some of the best single target damage and insane AoE with HotW. Our bleedcleaving on 2-3 targets with rake and trash is not bad either.

    Btw. what's this with ferals not scaling with gear properly? I've always found that we get quite op the more we gear up.

  2. #22
    Epic! Redpanda's Avatar
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    I think ferals are in a good spot at the moment, just as long as you can get you a damn good weapon. On cleave fights we are a bit behind but not by a huge amount (WTB a real cleave) but on single target I feel feral dps is on point. If any of you get a chance check out Fragnance(EU) on twitch. Streaming feral clearing heroic content and I usually see him in the top 5 so if you are topping or in the upper part of the metres I would say you are decent. I think the only reason I think you dont see many ferals on logs is because not many people play them /shrug.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkpanter View Post
    couldnt post more logs but all of you are free to search for every boss on this tier (all the top ferals) and compare them with there guild dmg
    you should do something wrong if you think feral is at a bad spot in pve atm
    So basically you took logs of some top ferals and compared them to not top players of other classes.

    Why not to do something completely opposite? Why not to take a log with top1 mage and have a look what's their feral's place in their chart is?
    Like this (<-- look! ferals are bad! mages are awesome!)

    But you know, it does not prove anything. You must compare top players of each class individually, not random players within one guild. Because obviously none of the guilds have all the top players in the world.
    Also keep in mind, that dps varries from kill to kill. ilvl varries. kill time varries. tactics varries.
    You have to take all of this into account.

    So all you can do is to wait until most of the top200 players get their bis gear. Take top 200 parses. Ignore top 20 of them(as they tend to be lucky procs, artificial dps increase using tot from rogues, etc). Compare dps on ALL bosses.
    And only after that you'll get the true overall picture.

    Random parses here and there won't help, unless you compare top random parses of one class with top random parses of another class. And you have to be extremely careful and act very smart, considering a lot of information, while doing this.

  4. #24
    When 200ppl have bis gear and just doing farm i dont think most ppl care if they get abit behind, what i do care about is progress and we are doing fine for that atm.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nijuu View Post
    You compare their damage with their guilds damage, but in reality you need to compare their damage with everything else, not just their guild. I never said feral were in a bad spot at the moment, i just said that ferals are in a bad spot when you compare them to other classes in endgame. If you put 10 equally skilled players with the same gearlevel (we talk about best in slot here) and 10 different specialization into one raid group feral won't be able to place top5. Those are facts and worldoflogs agrees
    deferent guilds deferent tactics deferent dps check the mages on the guilds that ive link or if you want the guilds that they have a feral druid that is on top of the dmg are all of them bad?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 06:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    So basically you took logs of some top ferals and compared them to not top players of other classes.

    Why not to do something completely opposite? Why not to take a log with top1 mage and have a look what's their feral's place in their chart is?
    Like this (<-- look! ferals are bad! mages are awesome!)
    so the other mages on this link are bad? as for the feral if he was doing http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=2878#Notdiggz that dmg he would be 2nd if you compare him with the ppl on his guild
    as i said different guilds different tactics different dps
    you cant compare the dps of the A class/specc with the dps of the B class/specc when they are on different guilds/raid group

    if you cant accept that then yes feral is bad live with it or change class
    Last edited by pinkpanter; 2012-12-07 at 06:36 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by baver View Post
    When 200ppl have bis gear and just doing farm i dont think most ppl care if they get abit behind, what i do care about is progress and we are doing fine for that atm.
    That is probably the main reason why ferals are so rare?

    Also "fine" is not quite measurable. What's "fine"? If it means that its a little bit below average, then ferals are fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkpanter View Post
    deferent guilds deferent tactics deferent dps check the mages on the guilds that ive link or if you want the guilds that they have a feral druid that is on top of the dmg are all of them bad?
    Not bad. But not top as well.



    so the other mages on this link are bad? as for the feral if he was doing http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=2878#Notdiggz that dmg he would be 2nd if you compare him with the ppl on his guild
    That's why you should not compare him with "other people" in other guilds.
    If you are comparing top1 feral, you should compare him with top1 mage, top1 lock, top1 hunter, top1 rogue, top1 warrior, etc.
    But in the same time you should not do this because it would not be any accurate at all. You should take average of at least a hundred of examples.

    as i said different guilds different tactics different dps
    you cant compare the dps of the A class/specc with the dps of the B class/specc when they are on different guilds/raid group
    That's why you need to take 100 examples. Because the chance that all 100 ferals raid in guilds that uses good tactics, and all 100 mages raid in guilds that uses bad tactics is pretty low.

    if you cant accept that then yes feral is bad live with it or change class
    Yeah, and you can travel to thailand and become thai transvestite prostitute. But how would it help with class dps comparison?

  7. #27
    Here's the issue I have with top 100 parse averages.

    If there's 100 raiding ferals, and 1000 raiding mages, you're taking the average feral vs the top 10% of mages, and that's not a fair comparison. And while the truth is not quite as distorted, sampling bias exists (and it really is ~10:1 or more in favor of mages). So yes it's easier to rank as feral, and consequently feral rankings are lower in average than they should be.

    See frost mage or bm hunter for examples of extreme cases.

    Also, many guilds (including mine) do a sort of rotating parse bitch designation per week on farm, where a couple people are selected to completely ignore non-lethal mechanics and given every buff/aid possible for them to pad the damage meters and obtain a high parse. Not too many guilds do this, and obviously from the ones who do, there will be more of almost every other dps spec than ferals, who have low representation. So maybe top 50 mage parses were made by padders, and top 5 ferals are made by padders. Makes a pretty large difference again when you're comparing top 100 for both.

    ---

    What's with this doom and gloom and the sky is falling and all that? Ferals are probably the best sustained aoe spec in the game right now, and 10th or better on single target. With the bosses we have, that usually puts us in the upper quartile.

    People predict that ferals will get worse with ilvl 510 gear. Why? I've been doing as well right now in ilvl 504 gear as I was back on heroic Feng with ilvl 473 gear. No one is in 510 gear yet. No one cares about 510 gear - by the time you have it all progression is dead.

    In the end, world of logs parses are almost irrelevant, it's all about how you can help your guild kill stuff faster, and ferals have one of the highest utility values in the game. Multitarget sunder with no loss of dps, battle rez, possibility of offtanking for short periods of time, heart of the wild tranquility/hurricane and more. What do the top (single target) dps specs bring? Oh right, just damage.

    Not to mention we're competitive dps at the top anyway all through progression (source: just check my sha of fear kill, I have yet to see a dps spec of any other class beat my 143k from any other kill video, including method's and blood legion's top warlocks and fire mages. I'm also competing against people who have weapons 20 ilvls higher than mine, stupid caster dagger off of week 1 protectors)
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2012-12-07 at 08:01 PM.

  8. #28
    Also have to remember casters are op now becouse that 5% extra haste they get from the bug all wol ranked ppl using :]

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by baver View Post
    Also have to remember casters are op now becouse that 5% extra haste they get from the bug all wol ranked ppl using :]
    At least this has been fixed, but it's similar to the Execute fix for Prot warriors: broken/bugged mechanics logs are going to stilt damage comparisons on a Top 100 scale.

    While I don't want to get into the weeds on a whole 10 vs 25 raid size, the actual size of raid you're running will likely determine how much damage you will do as a Feral. It could be as simple as buffs available, or it could be as complex as utility/execution required of the Feral since no one else can do it (such as healing, damage soaking, etc). As kaiadam suggested, there are guilds (and I don't think it's really that rare) that will have ppl rotated to pad meters and rank high on WoL, so using WoL is probably not the most accurate method of determining how well a person will do as Feral. At the very least, it will show the capacity of a class/spec, assuming good RNG and buff stacking.

    *edit* - My personal two cents: Feral is fine. Still rather annoying with Shred positional requirements on some encounters, though.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  10. #30
    Ferals are fine at the state they are now, its all about performance, im ranking 1-5 on almost every fight, being first on charts (in our guild) and my performance is not best, i know where i am doing mistakes in rotation and trying to fix them, feral is just about perfection and timing with DoC proc : )

  11. #31
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps
    Not top , not bottom. slightly above average i'd say ^^

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubalus View Post
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/realistic-dps
    Not top , not bottom. slightly above average i'd say ^^
    Yeah.. go away. I am sorry but noxxic.com has never been, and will never be a reliable source for anything really.
    They dont even seem to play the classes themselves. They are just as bad as icy-vein ...

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    Yeah.. go away. I am sorry but noxxic.com has never been, and will never be a reliable source for anything really.
    They dont even seem to play the classes themselves. They are just as bad as icy-vein ...
    Regardless of your opinion on Noxxic, Icy, or any other similar sites can you really dispute rankings based on simcraft results?

  14. #34
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airia View Post
    Regardless of your opinion on Noxxic, Icy, or any other similar sites can you really dispute rankings based on simcraft results?
    Simcraft and others have been fairly incorrect for most specs recently. Their model doesn't really emulate many (if any) bosses.

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  15. #35
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    Ferals are beasts, nuff said. Big love!

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