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  1. #21
    Gw2 has ALOT of great ideas but I don't really think that it has to this point turned out the way alot of us were hoping it would. I feel like if you're not playing with a group of friends WvW is quite dull. You basically get rocked and then spend 10 minutes trying to find some action again. I'm probably not doing it right but I really think the game has a ton of upside. They do need to fix the fact that you cannot jump shot as a caster. Backpeddling is not fun and it's kind of a major slap in the face to PvP'ers imo. But I do hope they tweak some things because I would very much like to love this game.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So in other MMO's players don't have to be in a certain range to perform melee attacks, or a certain arc to perform cone attacks, or a certain distance to perform PBAoE attacks?
    With every ability? No. Also other mmos have certain stats like To Hit that determine if you hit the target or not. Here it's not like that.

    Also as an example, every single melee attack in GW2 has a conal range. If you multiple opponents in that range you will hit them. In wow, as an example, unless it's specifically stated it is a cone affect you will only damage your target.

    One other mmo has a similar style with the melee combat and that is AoC, so if you have played that then you'll get the idea (except GW2 doesn't have the left, right, up, down type combo).

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So in other MMO's players don't have to be in a certain range to perform melee attacks, or a certain arc to perform cone attacks, or a certain distance to perform PBAoE attacks?
    There are typically fewer costs of opportunity in those games.

    GW2 combat is more like Chivalry or TES in that missing your swing is an actual miss for the most. If out of range, et certera. I can cleave in SWTOR only when the button lights up. Any missed are a matter of statistical calculation, not positioning or aim.

    Another apt point of comparison would be the difference in playing Ezreal vs. Vayne. Only one of those champions has skill shots which eat some from of opportunity in an engagement

    In GW2 nearly all abilities are skill shots ala Bloodline Champions, TES or Chivalry. That is a dramatic gameplay shift from hotkey MMOs in the Everquest model.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    There are typically fewer costs of opportunity in those games.

    GW2 combat is more like Chivalry or TES in that missing your swing is an actual miss for the most. If out of range, et certera. I can cleave in SWTOR only when the button lights up. Any missed are a matter of statistical calculation, not positioning or aim.

    Another apt point of comparison would be the difference in playing Ezreal vs. Vayne. Only one of those champions has skill shots which eat some from of opportunity in an engagement

    In GW2 nearly all abilities are skill shots ala Bloodline Champions, TES or Chivalry. That is a dramatic gameplay shift from hotkey MMOs in the Everquest model.
    I played a ranger it felt identical to other hotkey mmos, id click a target and shoot from range, I don't remember any particular skill shots, just needed to be facing the same way likey wow hunter.

  5. #25
    I played a Ranger. If I was facing to the left and press a skill button an arrow fired off and in the direction I was facing.

    I played a Hunter too. If I was facing to the left and press a skill button without a target no arrow is fired off. Nor is the direction of the arrow relative to the direction I was facing.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nurseman View Post
    I played a ranger it felt identical to other hotkey mmos, id click a target and shoot from range, I don't remember any particular skill shots, just needed to be facing the same way likey wow hunter.
    Can you still hit the target on you wow hunter if you don't have it targeted?

  7. #27
    With every ability? No. Also other mmos have certain stats like To Hit that determine if you hit the target or not. Here it's not like that.
    GW2 has dice rolls that determine things as well. Critical strikes for example, or damage ranges.

    Also as an example, every single melee attack in GW2 has a conal range. If you multiple opponents in that range you will hit them. In wow, as an example, unless it's specifically stated it is a cone affect you will only damage your target.
    Well sure, turn on that auto attack and cleave everything in front of you. That doesn't make it "more FPS" or "Less dice roll".

    There are typically fewer costs of opportunity in those games.
    Not true at all. You can easily miss a Shockwave, Cone of Cold, Frost Nova, Psychic Scream, or Water Elemental's Freeze in WoW and it's a pretty huge deal. (Cone, PBAoE and Ground Target all covered there!)

    GW2 combat is more like Chivalry or TES in that missing your swing is an actual miss for the most. If out of range, et certera.
    Yes, you can hit abilities and they'll go off if you're out of range, but it's usually meaningless (No GCD, no resource cost, no-or-very-short cooldowns) and that's not much different from other games. (Wee, I tried to cast Frost Nova but the guy moved, it still goes off.)

    Only one of those champions has skill shots which eat some from of opportunity in an engagement
    GW2 has no more "skill shots" than any other MMO that has cone, GTAE, PBAE, melee range attacks, and other abilities. Being able to mash your basic attack when no one else is around is cute, but doesn't change the feel or end result of the system.

    In GW2 nearly all abilities are skill shots ala Bloodline Champions, TES or Chivalry.p
    Again, that is pretty completely false. You don't aim anything in GW2, or at least you don't aim any more than you do in any other MMO. You target someone, your shots fly to them unerringly. You want to use a GTAE, PBAE, Cone, Melee AE, etc...those work exactly how they work in other MMO's. There's no extra aiming, no "FPS-Style" component going on there whatsoever.

    Probably the only significant difference is the presence of post-fire LoS checks (Which, again, aren't exactly a NEW feature, but different from many mainstream games right now) and the ability to body-block shots (which is neat, but given that just about every attack in the game in either a cleave or a penetrating shot and player hitboxes seem so tiny, it ends up being a bit academic).

  8. #28
    Ah so every mmo has their melee skills cleave then? I last played wow (as an example) last september. My warrior there had a cleave ability but none of the other skills could do it. I also had to have an actual target in range selected in order to use those skills. They must have revamped their whole combat system then. Likewise with Rift and Swtor which I have played recently. Well if they have done this then I take back what I say and refer to your vast experience in these matters Bovinity

  9. #29
    Ah so every mmo has their melee skills cleave then? I last played wow (as an example) last september. My warrior there had a cleave ability but none of the other skills could do it. I also had to have an actual target in range selected in order to use those skills. They must have revamped their whole combat system then. Likewise with Rift and Swtor which I have played recently. Well if they have done this then I take back what I say and refer to your vast experience in these matters Bovinity
    Why do you keep focusing on melee cleave? It doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Why do you keep focusing on melee cleave? It doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
    Because I can hit something other than my selected target in GW2. I have an opponent selected and will aim for a different target. That is something you cannot do in most other mmos. Hell you don't have to have anything targeted and still use skills in a group or whatever in order to use them. It is fundamentally different than most tab targeting mmos. But you say it is the same, so whatever.

  11. #31
    Because I can hit something other than my selected target in GW2. I have an opponent selected and will aim for a different target. That is something you cannot do in most other mmos. Hell you don't have to have anything targeted and still use skills in a group or whatever in order to use them. It is fundamentally different than most tab targeting mmos. But you say it is the same, so whatever.
    That's not fundamentally different from...anything. And it certainly has nothing to do with the game being "more FPS" or "Less dice roll".

    Attacks that cleave or AE in various forms are common in MMO's. Really common. Just because GW2 chose to apply a cleave to damn near every melee attack in the game doesn't mean the game is suddenly totally different.

    As to the other point, there are both plenty of skills you can use in other MMO's without a target selected, and plenty of skills in GW2 which have no effect or an irrelevant effect if no target is selected. (And yes, fairly there are some skills - like Warrior 1h sword leap - that have what you might call "alternate" effects if you don't have a target)

  12. #32
    Good lord it's like talking to a brick wall with you. I'm done with you

  13. #33
    Good lord it's like talking to a brick wall with you. I'm done with you
    Sorry, sir. These are simple facts, presenting everything in GW2 as being just totally different, new, and revolutionary when new players ask about the game is just more of the same over-hyping nonsense that annoys people.

  14. #34
    The Patient KelaniScar's Avatar
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    Amazing.

    SPvP is fast paced, jump in-jump out, capture point based. You can slash people to pieces for 5 minutes then leave, or play all day without having to sit in lobby after lobby, or queue after queue.

    WPvP is slow paced, large scale combat. You siege castles for gods sake! (And defend them. Nothing more awesome than defending your guild keep with 50 guildies, super steroid defenses and crushing any invaders.

    You won't get what you want from asking, you have to play it to see how awesome it really is.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not true at all. You can easily miss a Shockwave, Cone of Cold, Frost Nova, Psychic Scream, or Water Elemental's Freeze in WoW and it's a pretty huge deal. (Cone, PBAoE and Ground Target all covered there!)
    Fewer costs of opportunity does not mean no costs of opportunity.

    Read and think.

    Yes, you can hit abilities and they'll go off if you're out of range, but it's usually meaningless (No GCD, no resource cost, no-or-very-short cooldowns) and that's not much different from other games.
    That doesn't change the dynamism of combat though. If you fire a skill and miss in GW2 it is not a mathematical process of to-hit and to-evade rolls.

    Functionally speaking, you can swing through the game space freely for the majority of GW2's skills.

    You make a lot of mistakes w/r/t difficulty in your posts. It's not typically a relevant point of design how difficult something is or isn't, as the case may be. Many resources [which are a device] in other MMOs are also trivial. Their function and cost are still present.

    GW2 has no more "skill shots" than any other MMO that has cone, GTAE, PBAE, melee range attacks, and other abilities.
    By point of fact the majority of skills in GW2 do not require a target to be executed; yes, GW2 does have more skill shots than many popular MMOs in the EQ hotkey style.

    end result of the system.
    Flatly false. Provable and demonstrable.

    This line can not be true in any circumstance of Guild Wars 2 known to me.

    Again, that is pretty completely false. You don't aim anything in GW2, or at least you don't aim any more than you do in any other MMO.
    With respect, I do not believe you know what you are talking about and are making an argument that is for all intents & purposes pulled out of thin air.

    What I said is not provable as false or a matter of opinion. It is fact.

    One can target a specif enemy in Guild Wars 2 and aim at that target at their choosing- yes. Shots do not hit unerringly. This is provable, demonstrable and conceited in your own post.

    To swing or fire through the game space freely and miss due to range or movement is patently a skill shot in the vulgar sense. These are shots or skill executions which can be obscured, body blocked, dodged or negated via positioning relative to the player.

    Probably the only significant difference is the presence of post-fire LoS checks and the ability to body-block shots
    All of which are factors in determining if abilities are skill shots or not.

    To wit~

    An unerring shot in League of Legends is exactly as Vayne's Condemn. One clicks the skill on a target, it will always hit without error. A target can not be obscured, body blocked or otherwise dodge the hit by any means. One can not use Condemn without a valid target.

    By contrast, Ezreal's Mystic Shot is a skill shot. It is not fired on a target specifically [though one can click to fire at a target. The skill will fire off regardless of target. Mystic Shot can be dodged, body blocked and obscured. This is a skill shot.

    In Chivalry, one swings through an arc that will only strike targets in the valid range of that weapon. Arrows can be fired at targets freely. These swings and shots can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked. These are a skill shots.

    In Skyrim one swings through an arc that will only strike targets in the valid range of that weapon. Arrows can be fired at targets freely. These swings and shots can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked. These are a skill shots.

    A Sith Inquisitor's Force Lightning is not a skill shot. It is unerringly executed on valid selected targets only. The only factors that determine hit/miss chance are purely mathematical.

    A Sith Inquisitor's Overload is a skill shot. It affects all valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance in addition to mathematical outcomes.

    A Prot Warrior's Heroic Strike is not a skill shot. It is unerringly executed on valid selected targets only. The only factors that determine hit/miss chance are purely mathematical.

    A Prot Warrior's Shockwave is a skill shot. It affects valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance in addition to mathematical outcomes.

    A GW2 Guardian's Banish is a skill shot. It affects valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance. This swing can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked. These are a skill shots.

    A GW2 Guardian's Ray if Judgement is skill shot. It affects valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance. This shot can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked.

    That other games have skill shots in the from of conical blasts, PBAOE and so forth is not at issue. In the closing of my above post I said; "In GW2 nearly all abilities are skill shots ala Bloodline Champions, TES or Chivalry."

    No offense intended- however, it is you who that is in error.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-12-06 at 11:45 PM.

  16. #36
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    infernouk, you might be interested in this video with game dev Jonathan Sharp interviewing with top teams this last week on balance, eSports, s + tPvp.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByqoWsnz-I
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  17. #37
    Sheesh, not as friendly today, I see!

    Fewer costs of opportunity does not mean no costs of opportunity.

    Read and think.
    You tried to assert that there were lower costs of opportunity in other MMO's when it came to popping abilities that could miss. I didn't say there were NO costs. Popping cooldowns at the wrong time in either game is typically pretty catastrophic in any situation where said ability was actually needed.

    That doesn't change the dynamism of combat though. If you fire a skill and miss in GW2 it is not a mathematical process of to-hit and to-evade rolls.
    That's true in ANY other MMO where there are miss-able abilities. All the way back to EQ. Yes, some games add another layer of mechanics with a to-hit/to-evade roll, but the initial "Did it hit?" mechanic is still there, too.

    Functionally speaking, you can swing through the game space freely for the majority of GW2's skills.
    Sure, and you can do that with many abilities in other MMO's as well. As large a percentage? No. But they're still there. (Numerically there's actually more, but that's not too relevant.)

    In many cases being able to just mash abilities without even paying attention to what you're hitting doesn't really add a lot to the game either, but that's just my opinion. Sometimes it DOES add something positive to the game (Warrior 1h sword charge as an escape for example) but that's not TOO different from a Warrior Heroic Leaping as an escape in WoW, either.

    You make a lot of mistakes w/r/t difficulty in your posts. It's not typically a relevant point of design how difficult something is or isn't, as the case may be. Many resources [which are a device] in other MMOs are also trivial. Their function and cost are still present.
    Not bringing up difficulty at all here. Never said it. Just debunking the idea that GW2 is "FPS-like" or requires significantly more skill in aiming/execution/etc than other MMO's.

    One can target a specif enemy in Guild Wars 2 and aim at that target at their choosing- yes. Shots do not hit unerringly. This is provable, demonstrable and conceited in your own post.
    Yes, they do. As far as the attacker is concerned, the shots always go straight to the target. What I said is completely true, you don't "aim" your arrows or fireballs. Yes, the TARGET can move behind something or dodge roll, but that has nothing to do with what the attacker is doing. The attacker is interfacing with his "Shoot an arrow" exactly how someone would interface with "shoot an arrow" in WoW or Rift or most other games.

    An unerring shot in League of Legends is exactly as Vayne's Condemn. One clicks the skill on a target, it will always hit without error. A target can not be obscured, body blocked or otherwise dodge the hit by any means. One can not use Condemn without a valid target.

    By contrast, Ezreal's Mystic Shot is a skill shot. It is not fired on a target specifically [though one can click to fire at a target. The skill will fire off regardless of target. Mystic Shot can be dodged, body blocked and obscured. This is a skill shot.
    Yes, and nothing in GW2 really works that way unless you're really intentionally trying to make it hard on yourself. Hell, most of the time if you did equip a ranged weapon and shoot at nothing, the shots just kinda flop into the ground. You'd never see a target, intentionally NOT target it, and try to shoot targeted attacks at it. That's silly.

    When you do target them, the shots will fly unerringly toward them. It's not a skill shot for the attacker, but it can be evaded or obscured by the attacked player. But that fact doesn't change how the attacker uses his keys, he doesn't have to aim or account for wind or lead the target or predict movement or anything of that sort.

    Now you might try to use a GTAE, or a conical attack, or a line attack, or something like that, and those ARE more "skill shot" in nature, but they're also common to every other MMO. This isn't something unique to GW2 at all.

    A GW2 Guardian's Ray if Judgement is skill shot. It affects valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance. This shot can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked.

    That other games have skill shots in the from of conical blasts, PBAOE and so forth is not at issue.
    Are we really going to point at a linear-area attack that originates from the front of the caster and claim that it's not the same as a conical-area attack originating from the front of the caster? =)

    As for body blocking, since you brought it up several times and it IS valid: The problem is that A.Net kinda made their own good idea academic because so many shots either bounce, penetrate, explode, etc...making it so that body blocking is either ineffective or actually detrimental. Besides, it's not THAT new, in EQ some projectiles could be body blocked as well.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-12-07 at 03:43 AM.

  18. #38
    Brewmaster Lazuli's Avatar
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    Spvp is shit if you ask me. GW1 pvp was 10x better I am waiting for GvG to be released but they'll probably fuck that up too. Had same shitty meta for months now and it's not going to ever change, glass cannon and bunker. Seems ANet doesn't want us playing balanced and I can't see this game getting any more exciting in terms of builds since traits and weapon skills are extremely limited.

    Pretty much a WoW clone you choose your talent spec and stick with it for ages.

    MFW GW pve is actually better than the pvp lolwut -_- ANet may achieve e-sports pvp but it doesn't really matter if it's just going to be boring as fuck. Not that it's anywhere balanced right now anyway...

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Sheesh, not as friendly today, I see!
    I meant no malice or offense. Your post was not only incorrect it was flatly, stupid as in inane.

    It sounds bad cognitively to say it so frankly but your post was not very good. I apologize if it seemed too meanie-pants.

    You tried to assert that there were lower costs of opportunity in other MMO's when it came to popping abilities that could miss.
    Not quite, no.

    I said there were fewer costs of opportunity in other MMOs. Which is inverse to the number of abilities, natch.

    Not every ability in The Old Republic is a skill shot. Some are. The majority of abilities are not skills shots, however. A fact of gameplay in many hotkey based MMOs in the lineage of EQ, popularized by World of Warcraft.

    The "risks" in using an ability which is a skill shot in Rift or SWTOR are fewer than in GW2. The vast majority of their abilities are automatic calculations.

    This isn't strictly a matter of using the right cooldown in X situation as a cost of opportunity. That is relevant to actual play, but not wholly to design.

    When a Pyromancer launches a fireball at his target it doesn't move through the game world as a physical representation. Only a visual one. The determinant factor in whether that fireball hits intended target is decided at the moment of keypress. There is not a single point from keypress to hit that a player [Pyromancer or fireball victim] can influence the outcome of that effect by position or physical space.

    That is a zero cost of opportunity.

    That's true in ANY other MMO where there are miss-able abilities. All the way back to EQ. Yes, some games add another layer of mechanics with a to-hit/to-evade roll, but the initial "Did it hit?" mechanic is still there, too.
    There is no other layer mechanics. Those are different mechanics.

    If one "missed" with Force Lightning the calculation is one extrinsic to player input after keypress. It's entirely mathematical.

    As a Warrior in Guild Wars 2 nearly every skill on the bar can be used with or without a target. The game does not prevent the execution of such abilities. All attacks travel through the game space. There are no to hit or to evade calculations.

    You can not say the above of "ANY" MMO at all. Such an assertion would be an outright lie.

    In SWTOR as a Warrior I can not use my cleave unless I am in range, have enough resource and am locked to a valid target. The game prevents the execution of the ability otherwise.There are some skills I can use freely in SWTOR which do travel through game space. Addition calculations are made to determine hit chance and evasion.

    In Rift as a Warrior I can not use my cleave unless I am in range, have enough resource and am locked to a valid target. The game prevents the execution of that ability if not. Some skills I can use freely in Rift which do travel through game space. Additional calculations are made to determine hit chance and evasion.

    Going back to what I was addressing I will re-quote; "Yes, you can hit abilities and they'll go off if you're out of range, but it's usually meaningless (No GCD, no resource cost, no-or-very-short cooldowns) and that's not much different from other games."

    The factor of collision is much different from other games, particularly the majority of mainstream MMOs as already pointed out. Only a handful of mainstream MMOs even account for swinging through game space and collision as a basis for gameplay; Tera, Age of Conan, Vindicuts, etc. Some of which only allow for the arc of certain abilities [ex. Tera, Warcraft or Raiderz] to travel through game space.

    Sure, and you can do that with many abilities in other MMO's as well. As large a percentage? No. But they're still there.
    Not in question by me as already stated a number of times. I jlisted examples of skill shots and non skill shots in a number of popular MMOs.

    Heroic Strike in Warcraft does not travel through game space at all. It hits exactly the target if valid and mathematically possible.

    Banish in Guild Wars 2 hits any enemy it collides with as it swings through game space. There is no mathematical calculation to determine whether you hit that guy or not.

    The issue is one of degree. In Guild Wars 2 nearly all of the abilities travel through game space and account of collision. Ergo, the combat of Guild Wars 2 is more akin to Chivalry or TES than hotkey MMOs in popularized style of EQ & WoW. A provable, demonstrable and true statement.

    Just debunking the idea that GW2 is "FPS-like" or requires significantly more skill in aiming/execution/etc than other MMO's.
    Whoa, whoa. That is other guy's argument. Not mine. And again, the inclusion of "skill" or needing skill is irrelevant to design for the most part.

    Yes, they do. As far as the attacker is concerned, the shots always go straight to the target.
    No they don't.

    If the arrow can be obscured, dodged or body blocked by means of positioning and not mathematical calculation that is not a unerring shot.

    An unerring shot can not be obscured, dodged or body blocked typically.

    What you are saying is not possible and a contradiction of your admittance that body blocking and collision are factors. An unerring arrow shot would ignore those factors wholly. Not in part, wholly.

    What I said is completely true, you don't "aim" your arrows or fireballs. Yes, the TARGET can move behind something or dodge roll, but that has nothing to do with what the attacker is doing.
    No, what you said isn't true at all. I can fire in any direction I point my character tword. The arrow travels through game space and accounts for collision.

    In WoW and Rift I do not even have the option to fire an arrow without a valid target. So long as a valid target is in FOV than I can fire an arrow.

    The above is true in GW2, but the dynamic of GW2 isn't true in WOW or Rift in that you are able to fire an arrow in the direction you are facing which travels and collides with geometry in game.

    Yes, and nothing in GW2 really works that way unless you're really intentionally trying to make it hard on yourself. Hell, most of the time if you did equip a ranged weapon and shoot at nothing, the shots just kinda flop into the ground. You'd never see a target, intentionally NOT target it, and try to shoot targeted attacks at it. That's silly.
    Actually, it doesn't make the game harder or more obtuse. It can be quite useful considering the "zerging" of both players and Ai.

    Not targeting a specific enemy in GW2 due to the auto facing screwing is super useful for melee, for example. Where taking broad swings as melee without defined target(s) allows for easier strafing and more consistent area damage.

    Works well for side strafing from range as well when enemies are on the move and in clumps. Firing into their path of movement can net more axe bounces, piercing shots, etc then tabbing to far targets to maximize piercing.

    Definitely not a silly thing to do. Elementalist and Mesmers are the only 2 classes with skills that can not be used in this manner or at least unwise to try.

    When you do target them, the shots will fly unerringly toward them
    No, you will aim toward an enemy unerringly if tabbed to that target. The shot or swing is not guaranteed to hit that target. That is not an unerring attack.

    An unerring attack is perfectly accurate and on mark.

    Code:
    unerring
    adj
    1. not missing the mark or target
    2. consistently accurate; certain
    Now you might try to use a GTAE, or a conical attack, or a line attack, or something like that, and those ARE more "skill shot" in nature, they're also common to every other MMO. This isn't something unique to GW2 at all.
    Existence of skills shots in other MMOs is not in question. I just listed examples of skill shots in the post above. -_-

    Not concerned with uniqueness either.

    Are we really going to point at a linear-area attack that originates from the front of the caster and claim that it's not the same as a conical-area attack originating from the front of the caster? =)
    Forest from the trees, bro. I suspect you are being cheeky though.

    In any case, it would not matter if Ray of Judgement were a line attack, hexagon PBAOE or zigzagging projectile. The majority of attacks used in Guild Wars 2 move through game space and account for collision.

    This is as a point of fact, not true for the majority of combat abilities in other MMOs. Yet is true for the majority of Guild Wars 2's combat abilities.

  20. #40
    I admire your persistence Fencers There are some cases though where even if you give certifications signed by God himself about things, some people would just ignore them still believing in whatever they do.

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