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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So in other MMO's players don't have to be in a certain range to perform melee attacks, or a certain arc to perform cone attacks, or a certain distance to perform PBAoE attacks?
    There are typically fewer costs of opportunity in those games.

    GW2 combat is more like Chivalry or TES in that missing your swing is an actual miss for the most. If out of range, et certera. I can cleave in SWTOR only when the button lights up. Any missed are a matter of statistical calculation, not positioning or aim.

    Another apt point of comparison would be the difference in playing Ezreal vs. Vayne. Only one of those champions has skill shots which eat some from of opportunity in an engagement

    In GW2 nearly all abilities are skill shots ala Bloodline Champions, TES or Chivalry. That is a dramatic gameplay shift from hotkey MMOs in the Everquest model.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    There are typically fewer costs of opportunity in those games.

    GW2 combat is more like Chivalry or TES in that missing your swing is an actual miss for the most. If out of range, et certera. I can cleave in SWTOR only when the button lights up. Any missed are a matter of statistical calculation, not positioning or aim.

    Another apt point of comparison would be the difference in playing Ezreal vs. Vayne. Only one of those champions has skill shots which eat some from of opportunity in an engagement

    In GW2 nearly all abilities are skill shots ala Bloodline Champions, TES or Chivalry. That is a dramatic gameplay shift from hotkey MMOs in the Everquest model.
    I played a ranger it felt identical to other hotkey mmos, id click a target and shoot from range, I don't remember any particular skill shots, just needed to be facing the same way likey wow hunter.

  3. #23
    I played a Ranger. If I was facing to the left and press a skill button an arrow fired off and in the direction I was facing.

    I played a Hunter too. If I was facing to the left and press a skill button without a target no arrow is fired off. Nor is the direction of the arrow relative to the direction I was facing.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by nurseman View Post
    I played a ranger it felt identical to other hotkey mmos, id click a target and shoot from range, I don't remember any particular skill shots, just needed to be facing the same way likey wow hunter.
    Can you still hit the target on you wow hunter if you don't have it targeted?

  5. #25
    Ah so every mmo has their melee skills cleave then? I last played wow (as an example) last september. My warrior there had a cleave ability but none of the other skills could do it. I also had to have an actual target in range selected in order to use those skills. They must have revamped their whole combat system then. Likewise with Rift and Swtor which I have played recently. Well if they have done this then I take back what I say and refer to your vast experience in these matters Bovinity

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Why do you keep focusing on melee cleave? It doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
    Because I can hit something other than my selected target in GW2. I have an opponent selected and will aim for a different target. That is something you cannot do in most other mmos. Hell you don't have to have anything targeted and still use skills in a group or whatever in order to use them. It is fundamentally different than most tab targeting mmos. But you say it is the same, so whatever.

  7. #27
    Good lord it's like talking to a brick wall with you. I'm done with you

  8. #28
    Amazing.

    SPvP is fast paced, jump in-jump out, capture point based. You can slash people to pieces for 5 minutes then leave, or play all day without having to sit in lobby after lobby, or queue after queue.

    WPvP is slow paced, large scale combat. You siege castles for gods sake! (And defend them. Nothing more awesome than defending your guild keep with 50 guildies, super steroid defenses and crushing any invaders.

    You won't get what you want from asking, you have to play it to see how awesome it really is.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Not true at all. You can easily miss a Shockwave, Cone of Cold, Frost Nova, Psychic Scream, or Water Elemental's Freeze in WoW and it's a pretty huge deal. (Cone, PBAoE and Ground Target all covered there!)
    Fewer costs of opportunity does not mean no costs of opportunity.

    Read and think.

    Yes, you can hit abilities and they'll go off if you're out of range, but it's usually meaningless (No GCD, no resource cost, no-or-very-short cooldowns) and that's not much different from other games.
    That doesn't change the dynamism of combat though. If you fire a skill and miss in GW2 it is not a mathematical process of to-hit and to-evade rolls.

    Functionally speaking, you can swing through the game space freely for the majority of GW2's skills.

    You make a lot of mistakes w/r/t difficulty in your posts. It's not typically a relevant point of design how difficult something is or isn't, as the case may be. Many resources [which are a device] in other MMOs are also trivial. Their function and cost are still present.

    GW2 has no more "skill shots" than any other MMO that has cone, GTAE, PBAE, melee range attacks, and other abilities.
    By point of fact the majority of skills in GW2 do not require a target to be executed; yes, GW2 does have more skill shots than many popular MMOs in the EQ hotkey style.

    end result of the system.
    Flatly false. Provable and demonstrable.

    This line can not be true in any circumstance of Guild Wars 2 known to me.

    Again, that is pretty completely false. You don't aim anything in GW2, or at least you don't aim any more than you do in any other MMO.
    With respect, I do not believe you know what you are talking about and are making an argument that is for all intents & purposes pulled out of thin air.

    What I said is not provable as false or a matter of opinion. It is fact.

    One can target a specif enemy in Guild Wars 2 and aim at that target at their choosing- yes. Shots do not hit unerringly. This is provable, demonstrable and conceited in your own post.

    To swing or fire through the game space freely and miss due to range or movement is patently a skill shot in the vulgar sense. These are shots or skill executions which can be obscured, body blocked, dodged or negated via positioning relative to the player.

    Probably the only significant difference is the presence of post-fire LoS checks and the ability to body-block shots
    All of which are factors in determining if abilities are skill shots or not.

    To wit~

    An unerring shot in League of Legends is exactly as Vayne's Condemn. One clicks the skill on a target, it will always hit without error. A target can not be obscured, body blocked or otherwise dodge the hit by any means. One can not use Condemn without a valid target.

    By contrast, Ezreal's Mystic Shot is a skill shot. It is not fired on a target specifically [though one can click to fire at a target. The skill will fire off regardless of target. Mystic Shot can be dodged, body blocked and obscured. This is a skill shot.

    In Chivalry, one swings through an arc that will only strike targets in the valid range of that weapon. Arrows can be fired at targets freely. These swings and shots can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked. These are a skill shots.

    In Skyrim one swings through an arc that will only strike targets in the valid range of that weapon. Arrows can be fired at targets freely. These swings and shots can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked. These are a skill shots.

    A Sith Inquisitor's Force Lightning is not a skill shot. It is unerringly executed on valid selected targets only. The only factors that determine hit/miss chance are purely mathematical.

    A Sith Inquisitor's Overload is a skill shot. It affects all valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance in addition to mathematical outcomes.

    A Prot Warrior's Heroic Strike is not a skill shot. It is unerringly executed on valid selected targets only. The only factors that determine hit/miss chance are purely mathematical.

    A Prot Warrior's Shockwave is a skill shot. It affects valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance in addition to mathematical outcomes.

    A GW2 Guardian's Banish is a skill shot. It affects valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance. This swing can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked. These are a skill shots.

    A GW2 Guardian's Ray if Judgement is skill shot. It affects valid targets in the path of execution. Range and movement can determine hit/miss chance. This shot can be dodged, blocked, obscured and body blocked.

    That other games have skill shots in the from of conical blasts, PBAOE and so forth is not at issue. In the closing of my above post I said; "In GW2 nearly all abilities are skill shots ala Bloodline Champions, TES or Chivalry."

    No offense intended- however, it is you who that is in error.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-12-06 at 11:45 PM.

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    infernouk, you might be interested in this video with game dev Jonathan Sharp interviewing with top teams this last week on balance, eSports, s + tPvp.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByqoWsnz-I
    Valar morghulis

  11. #31
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    Spvp is shit if you ask me. GW1 pvp was 10x better I am waiting for GvG to be released but they'll probably fuck that up too. Had same shitty meta for months now and it's not going to ever change, glass cannon and bunker. Seems ANet doesn't want us playing balanced and I can't see this game getting any more exciting in terms of builds since traits and weapon skills are extremely limited.

    Pretty much a WoW clone you choose your talent spec and stick with it for ages.

    MFW GW pve is actually better than the pvp lolwut -_- ANet may achieve e-sports pvp but it doesn't really matter if it's just going to be boring as fuck. Not that it's anywhere balanced right now anyway...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Sheesh, not as friendly today, I see!
    I meant no malice or offense. Your post was not only incorrect it was flatly, stupid as in inane.

    It sounds bad cognitively to say it so frankly but your post was not very good. I apologize if it seemed too meanie-pants.

    You tried to assert that there were lower costs of opportunity in other MMO's when it came to popping abilities that could miss.
    Not quite, no.

    I said there were fewer costs of opportunity in other MMOs. Which is inverse to the number of abilities, natch.

    Not every ability in The Old Republic is a skill shot. Some are. The majority of abilities are not skills shots, however. A fact of gameplay in many hotkey based MMOs in the lineage of EQ, popularized by World of Warcraft.

    The "risks" in using an ability which is a skill shot in Rift or SWTOR are fewer than in GW2. The vast majority of their abilities are automatic calculations.

    This isn't strictly a matter of using the right cooldown in X situation as a cost of opportunity. That is relevant to actual play, but not wholly to design.

    When a Pyromancer launches a fireball at his target it doesn't move through the game world as a physical representation. Only a visual one. The determinant factor in whether that fireball hits intended target is decided at the moment of keypress. There is not a single point from keypress to hit that a player [Pyromancer or fireball victim] can influence the outcome of that effect by position or physical space.

    That is a zero cost of opportunity.

    That's true in ANY other MMO where there are miss-able abilities. All the way back to EQ. Yes, some games add another layer of mechanics with a to-hit/to-evade roll, but the initial "Did it hit?" mechanic is still there, too.
    There is no other layer mechanics. Those are different mechanics.

    If one "missed" with Force Lightning the calculation is one extrinsic to player input after keypress. It's entirely mathematical.

    As a Warrior in Guild Wars 2 nearly every skill on the bar can be used with or without a target. The game does not prevent the execution of such abilities. All attacks travel through the game space. There are no to hit or to evade calculations.

    You can not say the above of "ANY" MMO at all. Such an assertion would be an outright lie.

    In SWTOR as a Warrior I can not use my cleave unless I am in range, have enough resource and am locked to a valid target. The game prevents the execution of the ability otherwise.There are some skills I can use freely in SWTOR which do travel through game space. Addition calculations are made to determine hit chance and evasion.

    In Rift as a Warrior I can not use my cleave unless I am in range, have enough resource and am locked to a valid target. The game prevents the execution of that ability if not. Some skills I can use freely in Rift which do travel through game space. Additional calculations are made to determine hit chance and evasion.

    Going back to what I was addressing I will re-quote; "Yes, you can hit abilities and they'll go off if you're out of range, but it's usually meaningless (No GCD, no resource cost, no-or-very-short cooldowns) and that's not much different from other games."

    The factor of collision is much different from other games, particularly the majority of mainstream MMOs as already pointed out. Only a handful of mainstream MMOs even account for swinging through game space and collision as a basis for gameplay; Tera, Age of Conan, Vindicuts, etc. Some of which only allow for the arc of certain abilities [ex. Tera, Warcraft or Raiderz] to travel through game space.

    Sure, and you can do that with many abilities in other MMO's as well. As large a percentage? No. But they're still there.
    Not in question by me as already stated a number of times. I jlisted examples of skill shots and non skill shots in a number of popular MMOs.

    Heroic Strike in Warcraft does not travel through game space at all. It hits exactly the target if valid and mathematically possible.

    Banish in Guild Wars 2 hits any enemy it collides with as it swings through game space. There is no mathematical calculation to determine whether you hit that guy or not.

    The issue is one of degree. In Guild Wars 2 nearly all of the abilities travel through game space and account of collision. Ergo, the combat of Guild Wars 2 is more akin to Chivalry or TES than hotkey MMOs in popularized style of EQ & WoW. A provable, demonstrable and true statement.

    Just debunking the idea that GW2 is "FPS-like" or requires significantly more skill in aiming/execution/etc than other MMO's.
    Whoa, whoa. That is other guy's argument. Not mine. And again, the inclusion of "skill" or needing skill is irrelevant to design for the most part.

    Yes, they do. As far as the attacker is concerned, the shots always go straight to the target.
    No they don't.

    If the arrow can be obscured, dodged or body blocked by means of positioning and not mathematical calculation that is not a unerring shot.

    An unerring shot can not be obscured, dodged or body blocked typically.

    What you are saying is not possible and a contradiction of your admittance that body blocking and collision are factors. An unerring arrow shot would ignore those factors wholly. Not in part, wholly.

    What I said is completely true, you don't "aim" your arrows or fireballs. Yes, the TARGET can move behind something or dodge roll, but that has nothing to do with what the attacker is doing.
    No, what you said isn't true at all. I can fire in any direction I point my character tword. The arrow travels through game space and accounts for collision.

    In WoW and Rift I do not even have the option to fire an arrow without a valid target. So long as a valid target is in FOV than I can fire an arrow.

    The above is true in GW2, but the dynamic of GW2 isn't true in WOW or Rift in that you are able to fire an arrow in the direction you are facing which travels and collides with geometry in game.

    Yes, and nothing in GW2 really works that way unless you're really intentionally trying to make it hard on yourself. Hell, most of the time if you did equip a ranged weapon and shoot at nothing, the shots just kinda flop into the ground. You'd never see a target, intentionally NOT target it, and try to shoot targeted attacks at it. That's silly.
    Actually, it doesn't make the game harder or more obtuse. It can be quite useful considering the "zerging" of both players and Ai.

    Not targeting a specific enemy in GW2 due to the auto facing screwing is super useful for melee, for example. Where taking broad swings as melee without defined target(s) allows for easier strafing and more consistent area damage.

    Works well for side strafing from range as well when enemies are on the move and in clumps. Firing into their path of movement can net more axe bounces, piercing shots, etc then tabbing to far targets to maximize piercing.

    Definitely not a silly thing to do. Elementalist and Mesmers are the only 2 classes with skills that can not be used in this manner or at least unwise to try.

    When you do target them, the shots will fly unerringly toward them
    No, you will aim toward an enemy unerringly if tabbed to that target. The shot or swing is not guaranteed to hit that target. That is not an unerring attack.

    An unerring attack is perfectly accurate and on mark.

    Code:
    unerring
    adj
    1. not missing the mark or target
    2. consistently accurate; certain
    Now you might try to use a GTAE, or a conical attack, or a line attack, or something like that, and those ARE more "skill shot" in nature, they're also common to every other MMO. This isn't something unique to GW2 at all.
    Existence of skills shots in other MMOs is not in question. I just listed examples of skill shots in the post above. -_-

    Not concerned with uniqueness either.

    Are we really going to point at a linear-area attack that originates from the front of the caster and claim that it's not the same as a conical-area attack originating from the front of the caster? =)
    Forest from the trees, bro. I suspect you are being cheeky though.

    In any case, it would not matter if Ray of Judgement were a line attack, hexagon PBAOE or zigzagging projectile. The majority of attacks used in Guild Wars 2 move through game space and account for collision.

    This is as a point of fact, not true for the majority of combat abilities in other MMOs. Yet is true for the majority of Guild Wars 2's combat abilities.

  13. #33
    I admire your persistence Fencers There are some cases though where even if you give certifications signed by God himself about things, some people would just ignore them still believing in whatever they do.

  14. #34
    Bloodsail Admiral Odeezee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So in other MMO's players don't have to be in a certain range to perform melee attacks, or a certain arc to perform cone attacks, or a certain distance to perform PBAoE attacks?

    Another bit of advice to the OP: The "non-dice-roll" and "FPS style" combat is another part of the game that's blown vastly out of proportion. If you've played other MMO's, this will feel exactly the same to you except for the invincibility-roll that they tossed in.
    this greatly saddens me that not only do you think this is true, but you feel so confident in your "knowledge" of the subject matter that you are willing to post it on a public forum. you take so much for granted with GW2's combat system that you really do not see the vast and i do mean VAST differences between it's combat system and those found in tradition MMOs. to name a few: casting on the move with most abilities, being able to free-cast skills with/without a target, positional avoidance just by rapidly changing direction, dodging, cross-profession combos, elevation augmenting skills, collision detection of objects and players in the path of the attack, etc.

    recently i have discovered, more so in GW2 than in any other game prior, that people think they understand GW2's combat just because they have played MMOs for x amount of years, but the GW2 system is so deep that you can play it with as much or as little hand-holding as you like. the game makes it easy for actual pros and newbies to get into the game and have fun and because of this players unfamiliar with the nuances of the game mechanics can find it rather overwhelming that most people revert to playing GW2 as they would any other MMO i.e: use melee target assist, set your 1 skill to auto-cast, promote skill target to actual target, target assist, etc. this makes the game more accessible but it hampers your ability to become more proficient in PvP. case in point in WvW if you are a Ranger and have target assist on and try to hit a target on a ledge you will miss because target assist attacks the target using the shortest distance possible which in this case will hit the bottom of the ledge and not the target. now if you disable target assist and actually free aim (ala TERA but without the aid of a cross-hair) slightly higher, due to the arc path of the attack, it will shoot up and arc over the ledge and hit the target.

    i get that people may not like GW2 for whatever reason and that is more than fine, like what you like just do not go around talking about things as fact that you have NO clue about just because you are feeling disappointed or let down. the funny thing is your skewed perception and lack of knowledge of the game and it's nuances could be the very reason that you did not end up enjoying yourself in the first place.

    @ the OP, the game is rather complex but, like i said above, there are many features in place to ease you into it, just do not assume that the hand-holding options that are set as default are the best and/or only way to play the game. for me the PvP in GW2 is the best i have played in any MMO over the last 9 years, but the decision lies with you because we may look for different things when it comes to PvP. it's worth the $60 or w/e it is where you live so i would definitely give it a try because at the very least you will get your $60 worth!
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelevandros View Post
    I admire your persistence Fencers There are some cases though where even if you give certifications signed by God himself about things, some people would just ignore them still believing in whatever they do.
    Fencers persistence comes from an insatiable desire to always be 100% right regardless of what anyone else says, she is no different from bovine, both have no leeway its, im right you're not, and neither will give it a rest. With the number of people fighting over who's religion is right at the moment I doubt anything signed by god will create order here, these guys will just carry on and on.
    I dont particularly agree with fencers on this one, dont understand what the difference between a swipe or thrash on my feral and these 'skill shots' shes going on about.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by infernouk View Post
    Ok sounds like it might be wroth giving it a go then with only a week to level a character and balanced pvp!

    any tips on good pvp classes or is it really that balanced?
    it really is that balanced. i roll necromancer and luv my dagger/warhorn spec (alot of what warlocks became with mop, came from this class imo). luv my engineer as well, supa fun ranged class.

  17. #37
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    It's a bit boring because of lacking diversity imo. You only get 10 abilities of which only 5 are action abilities which don't even all do damage, very little customization can be done.

  18. #38
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    Downed state should be removed in pvp....

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonshain View Post
    Downed state should be removed in pvp....
    The problem is the imbalance of the abilities during downed available to each class and how fast you can get ressed from the downed state. Balance is transitory I believe someone once said, and GW2 has as much balance as you can get when you factor in class and talents, in otherwords not much but not as bad as others.

  20. #40
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    To come back to the question that was initially asked in this thread, I'd like to quote a post from page 1:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernling306 View Post
    I personally think the SPvP in Gw2 is really bad. Having the single game type(conquest) makes it feel very repetitive. The developers of Anet have already said numerous times that they will not ever be adding any more game modes. I personally wouldn't ever recommend this game to someone that is looking for a PvP game. If you want a PvP game, go to Planetside 2(I can't get into it, but see where it shines), LoL or just about anything else really. The game is worth buying for a single PvE play through though.
    First off: The devs never said that they won't add other gamemodes to GW2. But that's not the important thing, which is:
    You have to identify the type of PvP player that you are. I tend to divide them into 2 categories:
    1. The player wants to develop his character/account by doing PvP. He/She likes to invest time and/or money to get an edge in combat. This category does, in my eyes, contain the majority of PvP gamers.
    2. The player wants to have a level playing field where no character/account is stronger than the others. Being better at playing the game is the main factor of determining the outcome of battles.

    When Fernling306 says that sPvP in GW2 is really bad, he actually means that it's bad for category 1 players, for who Planetside 2 and LoL seems to be a better experience.
    I, on the other hand, say that it's awesome If you can identify yourself with category 2, that is.
    A true PvP game should imho not give the players incentives to spend a lot of time (read: grinding, not gaining personal experience) or money so that their character becomes stronger, but has to provide the exact same equipment to everyone.
    GW2 Structured PvP does that, which I'm very grateful for, as do traditional shooters and strategy games. But the trend definitely goes towards category 1 with F2P games, which saddens me... but only a little, since there are still PvP games like GW2, DotA2 or Bloodline Champions out there for me

    Oh, and GW2 actually tried to cater to both categories by offering sPvP and WvW at the same time. This may be a reason why both areas are still lacking some features (e.g. ladder, spectators, proper matchmaking, alliance chat) or incentives to play (e.g. WvW rank), but ANet promised to implement a lot of them.

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