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  1. #361
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ateup View Post
    If I want to fight randoms I can BG. World PvP should be against people from your world. I can't hunt down notorious gankers from other servers in Pandaria.
    endus this is why i want them to be on my server

  2. #362
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    endus this is why i want them to be on my server
    And to the both of you, again, it's a short list of people being CRZed in with you. You won't run into them in Pandaria, but if they're ganking in the old world, you probably will.

    And it's an exceedingly minor issue that I'm more than happy to allow if it means the old world is no longer barren like it's been for years.

  3. #363
    Slight strawman, but if CRZs are so awesome, why are they not implemented in Panderia?


    Don't give "Panderia is more active" because that is obviously not the case. Panderia is pretty much dead save the random person you bump into every now and again.


    I think a lot of these "PvP happens on PvP server" would cease when 80 level 90s from various zones are camping you on Panderia's entrance.
    Last edited by leafs43; 2012-12-10 at 10:21 PM.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Forced name/guild name changes, people having to delete toons if they have enough on both servers in question to put them over the cap (let alone having a DK on each), etc.

    Server merges aren't the simple solution some people think. Especially since it doesn't address old world zones; it just means there's a higher overall population, but the older zones are still unpopulated relative to Pandaria, since most players are focusing on the new content. That's why they went with CRZ; they can adjust it to ensure that those zones are actively populated, even if the population shifts, which server merges don't protect against, and on a zone-by-zone basis.
    I actually rolled a newbie on Mal'ganis around a year ago and since it is heavily populated by Horde I figured I'd roll alliance so there would be a somewhat decent chance of encountering horde alts while leveling to engage in some pvp. Boy was I wrong. I didn't see my 1st horde until I reached WPL. Pretty pointless of a pvp realm to have zero people in leveling zones to engage in pvp.

    Maybe an improvement to the CRZ would only to allow those of appropriate level to be CRZ'd into the zone so only the people around your level range would be around to gank and corpse camp you instead of a 90. But like you said being ganked and camped is all part of the pvp realm so I do find it pretty absurd about people complaining about it.
    Last edited by Marema; 2012-12-10 at 10:29 PM.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Slight strawman, but if CRZs are so awesome, why are they not implemented in Panderia?

    Don't give "Panderia is more active" because that is obviously not the case. Panderia is pretty much dead save the random person you bump into every now and again.
    I am going to give you exactly that. While it varies from one realm to another, the activity in Pandaria is quite high on all except the low population realms. It was even higher in the beginning of the expansion. Granted, there are notable differences between the factions on many realms. It is also reasonably new technology on live and I wouldn't be surprised if the developers are still waiting and adjusting the system as they see fit. Enabling it in Pandaria had its own risks, and we did indeed see quite some bugs and unintended uses of the feature even when it was limited to invite only. I would expect that CRZs being disabled now also prevents some issues like the rare spawns from being too hard to get with them still being fresh and wanted.

    Why the low population realms don't already have limited CRZs in Pandaria, that I do not know, but I full well expect to see it happening with all the realms in the future. I believe that this was also stated by the developers.

  6. #366
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Slight strawman, but if CRZs are so awesome, why are they not implemented in Panderia?


    Don't give "Panderia is more active" because that is obviously not the case. Panderia is pretty much dead save the random person you bump into every now and again.


    I think a lot of these "PvP happens on PvP server" would cease when 80 level 90s from various zones are camping you on Panderia's entrance.
    Is your realm a low-population server or something?

    Pandaria is still crazy busy on Bleeding Hollow. Halfhill isn't as bad as it was the first few weeks, but there's still a couple dozen people in the market there at any given time. We see regular, practically daily, world PvP raids. The BMAH becomes a giant mess if there's a hot item on there. Rares are heavily camped and sought after; I've snagged quite a few but there's usually someone else showing up before I finish killing them. When I go farming, there's usually at LEAST 3-4 people farming the same things at the same time that I'll fight for nodes with. If I'm doing dailies, it's weird if there aren't 8-10 people running the same dailies as I am.

    And to repeat; we have guilds on our server who will get 80-man raids together to go camp locations like the honor/conquest vendors for hours, or invade the Shrines, or lock down a raid entrance and prevent anyone using the stone. Happens constantly.

    And that's the kind of environment I want. Same for a lot of PvP realm players. That's what PvP realms are about. I don't have any issue with those who prefer PvE realms, but seriously, stop trying to turn PvP realms into PvE realms because you don't want to reroll or transfer, or accept the consequences for not understanding the server type you rolled on.

    They likely will enable CRZs in Pandaria. They didn't right off because they figured it would be busy enough that they didn't want to risk bugs or glitches that might cause issues on the content most of the playerbase was focused on.

  7. #367

  8. #368
    Yeah and now that they finally realized it why don't they now remove flying mounts.

  9. #369
    I'm just waiting until they start matching a horde-only PvP server like Illidan or Mal'Ganis with a similarly Alliance dominated server in Pandaria.

    That will be epicly amusing.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoneseek View Post
    PvP servers were even harder to level on then they are now 7 years ago. Very few escape mechanisms, no flying, no arena only BG and long queues so people were out and about in the world. Also, the world was much smaller so the playerbase was more dense across the zones. You're joking if you think 7 years ago, pvp servers were a friendly place. 7 years ago if you dared level in STV instead of just doing SM runs from 30-40 you would be ganked every 5 minutes by a 60.

    People just got soft over the past FEW years (wotlk+) because world pvp has been basically non existent. As Blizzard said, this wasn't intended. And now its been fixed. And now people are crying about pvp on a pvp server. Smallest violin: its playing.
    back then pvp had meaning. Before flying mounts. Before CRZ.

    I just have to quote myself here:


    ganking is absolutely fine and the risk of getting ganked/retribution was (please note: past tense) one of the key thrills of playing on a pvp server


    flying mounts have sucked any and all fun there was once to be had a long time ago in world pvp out of it.


    To make matters worse, CRZ has made an already depressingly diminished experience ultimately meaningless. Getting ganked by or ganking a nameless random player you will in all likelihood never ever see again (and certainly not at max level when rivaries really flourish, since pandaria is CRZ-free territory [thank god]) has no meaning whatsoever.

    They dont even acknowledge that 9 out of 10 PvP realms have incredibly lopsided faction imbalance. Because CRZ is such a great bandaid... yeah right. The only noticeable effect is extreme ganking around Dark Portal which, again, due to flying mounts is utterly meaningless and makes me depressed when thinking about classic world pvp...

    While the ratio on my realm is not as horrible as it is on most PvP realms I still refrain from ganking obviously outmatched alliance players too much out of fear even more will transfer away or faction change. Not that there is any meaning or excitement left for open pvp in this game anyway

    most people rolled on a pvp server back when it meant something (or maybe not but a lot of us did!)
    That's not to say I dont fully agree with you about players getting soft over the years. But world pvp is bullshit now that's a fact just as true. And the gankers are the softest pussies of them all, thanks to flying mounts they can just chill once equal level opposition arrives. Thanks to CRZ they dont have to care about their name landing on any KoS lists because they will never ever see anybody again anyway.

    And because it is all so meaningless no world pvp even happens anymore because nobody can be bothered to waste their time without getting any pvp done once you make your way to the gankers who afk on their flying mounts (admittedly a truly afk ganker in the air can be great fun if hes afk long enough and you're on a class able to prevent fall damage)

    also it's hilarious how people who say "pvp happened on a pvp server" are usually carebears taking it easy in their pve or rp realm wonderlands.
    Or people who suck so much at actual pvp the only enemy player interaction they have is ganking (with the pathetic or nonexistant arena and rbg ratings to prove it)
    I just discovered the cogshanks firefix extension to see the forum alts mains on the official forums the other day. God what amazing fun.
    Last edited by Xolotl; 2012-12-11 at 05:39 AM.

  11. #371
    I don't get the view that absolves Blizzard of any responsibility for problems enabled by new features like transfers and faction changes combined with the lack of checks and balances in place. People like min-maxers and those looking for ez mode take advantage due to the overwhelming benefits! Player created problem! Pay Blizzard or start from level 1! It's a choice! Not their fault! Sorry, pay the tax, start over, or get screwed are not acceptable answers.

    At the start of Wrath, DK's and paladins were dominating in PvP and PvE. Tanking, healing, DPS, all covered. Blizzard was warned by beta testers that they were too powerful but those voices were ignored.

    By Endus' logic, the fact that so many people made DK's and paladins to dominate everyone else in PvP and PvE is a "player-created problem". There was nothing for Blizzard to fix. After all, if you didn't want to be dominated, everyone had the choice of re-rolling as a DK or paladin. You didn't have to play that mage or shaman, no one was making you. You could have made a paladin or DK to be PvP/PvE champ. Blizzard was blameless and had no responsibility to do anything about it. Those weren't acceptable answers then either.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Cows For Life View Post
    By Endus' logic, the fact that so many people made DK's and paladins to dominate everyone else in PvP and PvE is a "player-created problem". There was nothing for Blizzard to fix. After all, if you didn't want to be dominated, everyone had the choice of re-rolling as a DK or paladin. You didn't have to play that mage or shaman, no one was making you. You could have made a paladin or DK to be PvP/PvE champ. Blizzard was blameless and had no responsibility to do anything about it. Those weren't acceptable answers then either.
    You really are twisting it. PvP realms allow this kind of behaviour by official and intentional design, making it a completely different case. And no, that still obviously doesn't mean that it can't be criticized.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    You really are twisting it. PvP realms allow this kind of behaviour by official and intentional design, making it a completely different case. And no, that still obviously doesn't mean that it can't be criticized.
    It's not intended design for servers to have 10:1 or 20:1 faction ratios.

  14. #374
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cows For Life View Post
    It's not intended design for servers to have 10:1 or 20:1 faction ratios.
    It doesn't go against the set rules for PVP realms either. It's what happens when players are free to pick and choose from servers as they wish.

  15. #375
    CRZ's should be 100% optional. Thus if you want World PvP you'll turn it on and meet other people who want World PvP.

    Simple solution, and it doesn't screw with gathering materials, looking for rare mobs or pets, questing...

    Oh wait. That's not why people want more people in their zones, is it? Especially people who don't really want to be bothered with!

  16. #376
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cows For Life View Post
    I don't get the view that absolves Blizzard of any responsibility for problems enabled by new features like transfers and faction changes combined with the lack of checks and balances in place.
    Those problems aren't fixable in the sense that you think they are, and CRZ is the first step in actually fixing the problem in a long-term, dynamic manner.

    They can't limit or force transfers. That would cause even more complaining and rage than the current state of those servers. Many of those forced to move would end up being forced to change their names, because Blizzard decided to merge servers. Not to mention guild names and such as well, different connection times between server hubs, etc; I've gone from an average of 120ms ping on one server, to 30ms on another; if I moved to the 30ms server for that ping time, and Blizzard merged it back with the 120ms ping server or one that's even worse, I'd be furious. So forcing or limiting transfers doesn't work. It's worse than the problem. Not to mention, it doesn't prevent the same issue cropping up again, requiring constant pruning and adjusting going forward.

    Adding in CRZ lets them bring multiple server populations into the same zone in an attempt to provide exactly the balance you're complaining doesn't exist. You can't complain that server pops are a problem, and complain about the one solution that's been presented that may have long-term viability.

    So no; I'm not saying they have no responsibility. I'm saying they aren't solely responsible; those servers are in their state because of the community. And CRZ is a means to fix that. You should be applauding it.

    By Endus' logic, the fact that so many people made DK's and paladins to dominate everyone else in PvP and PvE is a "player-created problem". There was nothing for Blizzard to fix. After all, if you didn't want to be dominated, everyone had the choice of re-rolling as a DK or paladin.
    Except there, the people who created the lack of class balance was Blizzard. With the servers, it's the players who chose where they wanted to play. You're comparing apples to ducklings.


    Again; there are two complaints being made here;
    1> CRZ is "bad" because I'm getting ganked and/or camped a lot more. This isn't a reasonable complaint, since that's what PvP servers are for. You should be on a PvE server, and your mistake in server selection does not mean the PvP realms should be changed.
    2> PvP servers have unbalanced populations. CRZ helps fix this by merging zones with other servers. It's not applied to Pandaria yet, but that's likely coming.

    CRZ isn't the problem. It's the solution. Those who don't like the solution should have been picking PvE realms, since it's restoring those servers to the desired experience.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-12 at 08:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    CRZ's should be 100% optional. Thus if you want World PvP you'll turn it on and meet other people who want World PvP.

    Simple solution, and it doesn't screw with gathering materials, looking for rare mobs or pets, questing...

    Oh wait. That's not why people want more people in their zones, is it? Especially people who don't really want to be bothered with!
    Except the intent is that it SHOULD screw with gathering materials, looking for rare mobs or pets, and questing. It's meant to both provide a livelier experience in those zones as people level, and ensure that people on low population servers are facing similar amounts of competition for resources and rares as those on high pop servers in active zones do.

    Which is why it absolutely should NOT be optional.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by volrath50 View Post
    I'm just waiting until they start matching a horde-only PvP server like Illidan or Mal'Ganis with a similarly Alliance dominated server in Pandaria.

    That will be epicly amusing.
    Blizzard should either rename those lopsided servers to PVE (since there is really no PVP going on), or open up CRZ in Pandaria against another lopsided servers. People accustomed to camping Galleon without any resistance would suddenly find themselves not being able to down the boss at all lol. But I am afraid the tears will be so much they will flood Blizz forums.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Cows For Life View Post
    It's not intended design for servers to have 10:1 or 20:1 faction ratios.
    I read through your post quite quickly so I missed your argument being about the lack of faction balance. That I can agree with and I think CRZ is testing the waters for a solution.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Except there, the people who created the lack of class balance was Blizzard. With the servers, it's the players who chose where they wanted to play. You're comparing apples to ducklings.
    Allowing L90s to camp low level zones is an example of "lack of balance" created by Blizzard. Cows For Life's argument is valid.

    Many players chose pvp servers before Crz. Things like realm/faction size and server reps mattered. Players could move to another zone if they were camped. With Crz, L90s are in every zone killing players who have 0 chance of hitting back. With Crz, if lowbies log their main or group with a L90 guildee, there is no guarantee they will end up on the same zone server as their gankers. It wasn't always this way.

    Endus, many of the world pvp activities you bring up sound fun, yet you're neglecting the imbalanced griefing that Blizzard is stating they are perfectly okay with. How exactly would the world pvp activities you enjoy be ruined if Blizzard put 'bg bracket' restraints on world pvp or did something to stop players from griefing low level zones? People stop playing games when they are unfair. More players would roll on pvp servers if low level griefing was removed. The competive world pvp activities you enjoy would increase with more players playing.

  20. #380
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adorich View Post
    Allowing L90s to camp low level zones is an example of "lack of balance" created by Blizzard. Cows For Life's argument is valid.
    World PvP is intended to be unbalanced. Arenas and BGs and world events like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad are balanced, World PvP is deliberately not balanced, by stated intent.

    So no; it's not valid. It's just ignorant of the reality and intended gameplay of PvP realms, as confirmed in the PvP realm policy which explicitly states being camped and ganked by high-level players as legitimate gameplay.

    Many players chose pvp servers before Crz. Things like realm/faction size and server reps mattered. Players could move to another zone if they were camped. With Crz, L90s are in every zone killing players who have 0 chance of hitting back. With Crz, if lowbies log their main or group with a L90 guildee, there is no guarantee they will end up on the same zone server as their gankers. It wasn't always this way.
    Right. It used to be far too safe, because server populations have tended to coalesce primarily in the current expansion's zones. CRZ fixes this and makes the old world as active as it should be.

    If you did not read the PvP realm policy and know what was expected on PvP realms, then that's not Blizzard's fault. And you're free to go play on a PvE realm, which provides exactly the experience you apparently want out of the game. A transfer's not that expensive; going to the movies is pretty close to a $25 experience if you're getting popcorn and a drink, these days, and that's for a 2-hour experience; how much time do you spend in WoW? If you'd go to see a movie, paying for a transfer isn't out of your means. Sure, it's not a negligible fee, but that keeps people from transferring on a whim.

    Endus, many of the world pvp activities you bring up sound fun, yet you're neglecting the imbalanced griefing that Blizzard is stating they are perfectly okay with. How exactly would the world pvp activities you enjoy be ruined if Blizzard put 'bg bracket' restraints on world pvp or did something to stop players from griefing low level zones? People stop playing games when they are unfair. More players would roll on pvp servers if low level griefing was removed. The competive world pvp activities you enjoy would increase with more players playing.
    The stated, official intent is that PvP servers be unfair, and that griefing and ganking should be prevalent. That's the whole point of PvP servers. All the balanced PvP exists on PvE realms. The only difference between the two is that PvP servers force everyone to be vulnerable to PvP outside the major cities and starter zones, and that any actions which have potential PvP resolutions are deemed legitimate. Someone camping your quest hub on a PvE server for hours is actionable; it's considered griefing and you can report them and the GMs will take appropriate action. Someone doing the exact same thing on a PvP server is expected and desired. That's the difference between the two.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm pointing out that the exact experience you want is what PvE servers exist to offer. And I'm asking that, if that's what you want, go play on a PvE server. Leave the PvP servers for those of us who do enjoy the unfair constant threat. I don't run around ganking people for yuks, but when I'm leveling a new toon, I want that burst of adrenaline when I see a red name fly past me overhead. I want to be fighting a rare spawn and have 8 Horde fly in, wreck my face, and take the rare. I want to hear that my guildmate's having issues with ganking/griefing, and grab a bunch of our max-level friends and go wreck some Horde face, usually letting our wroth spill over onto whatever innocents are in the area.

    Yes, it's all unfair and such, but that's the point. That's what PvP servers exist to provide. CRZ simply corrected the population issue in the old world zones. And that's a great thing. I server transferred with my guild back around the start of DS (our old server's population was dying, so we moved to a higher pop server for better recruiting options), and only transferred my main. I had most classes to 85 at the time. Now, I have 3 level 90s, and three more toons at 85. Leveling those toons to 85, or 80, or 70, was always boring. Everyone was in the current expansion's zones, and the old zones were dead. You'd occasionally see another person, but it was rare, and often just riding past them. I could do dozens of levels totally alone. It was incredibly boring. Now, having leveled two characters entirely under CRZ, I'm absolutely in love with the system on PvP servers. The thrill is back. It's how it used to be, in Vanilla (more or less; there's obvious differences but the zones are busy and the threat is constant).

    There's no reason to remove the griefing or ganking, since an experience without that exists on PvE realms. That's what those realms are for. So please, seriously, go play on those realms and leave the PvP realms to those of us who actually like the ruleset.

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