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  1. #701
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    I wish you luck in trying to change something that was in place for 8 years and updated just 4 months ago.

    Blizzard's Player vs Player Server Policy Updated: Aug 16, 2012

    It's a shame whiners just don't get the hint and reroll on a PvE realm.
    I understand there is no chance of changing anything and I've no problem with pvp.
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  2. #702
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junkdepot View Post
    And I don't think it's beyond the pale for Blizzard to acknowledge that what the people having issues with the CRZ PVP experience on a PVP realm (regardless of it's stated or implied intent per the policy) is not what they have been accustomed to. I play on a PVP realm - in fact, every character across 2 accounts are on PVP realms - I don't have issues with it. I do have issues with people that cry "reroll PVE" or "pay to transfer your character(s) to a PVE realm". People become committed to a character or characters. Blizzard needs to recognize that the experience THEY provided on PVP realms over the last two expansions is not consistent with their stated intent of a PVP realm and what PVP realms have returned to. They should provide a means for people to move characters off for free or at reduced cost for multiple characters.
    They've recognized all that. Over the past years, they have;
    1> Allowed for transfers between server types, rather than locking you to whichever server type you rolled on
    2> Added a great deal of account-bound data, such as mounts and titles, in the event of a re-roll.
    3> Added and expanded on heirlooms, to greatly accelerate the leveling of new alts (particularly if you take your heirlooms on a single character you transfer to a new server).

    Etc.

    They already have a free option; reroll on a PvE server and start over, with your account-bound achievements and mounts and such intact. They also have a paid option, allowing you to pay a reasonable fee to transfer a character with their progression and gear intact. You can even transfer a guild this way, for slightly more of an investment.

    I don't see why they should be obligated to provide a free transfer option for changes that are still within the stated policy of a PvP realm. If they'd changed the policy and allowed for a significant change in the experience as a result, sure, I'd see an argument to be made there; you signed on to a realm based on the ruleset it uses, and if they change that ruleset, it could be argued they should offer you a way out rather than locking you in to the new ruleset without opting in. But that's not what's happening, here. There's nothing about the CRZ changes that in any way contradict the rules the policy sets out.

    As for why this is a big deal; people don't like changes. That's why, with pretty much any change Blizzard makes to the game, you'll see threads on the forums saying it's the worst thing since Hitler and Stalin's lovechild invented dubstep. If we were to suggest that THIS change necessitated a free transfer because it results in something a player doesn't like, you'd extend that same argument to other changes, as well. They nerfed your class and you don't enjoy it any more? Give everyone of that class a free class change! They add the new race models they're working on and you hate your new model? Free race changes!

    The issue here is that the changes CRZ wrought don't in any way contradict the stated policies. While they do change the game experience, so do most other changes Blizzard makes to the game. If you were to argue that Blizzard should offer a free way out here, I can't see how you couldn't extend that argument to basically every other major change Blizzard makes. That isn't how they've ever responded to these kinds of changes before, and I don't see why the addition of CRZ would be any different.

  3. #703
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They've recognized all that. Over the past years, they have;
    1> Allowed for transfers between server types, rather than locking you to whichever server type you rolled on
    2> Added a great deal of account-bound data, such as mounts and titles, in the event of a re-roll.
    3> Added and expanded on heirlooms, to greatly accelerate the leveling of new alts (particularly if you take your heirlooms on a single character you transfer to a new server).

    Etc.

    They already have a free option; reroll on a PvE server and start over, with your account-bound achievements and mounts and such intact. They also have a paid option, allowing you to pay a reasonable fee to transfer a character with their progression and gear intact. You can even transfer a guild this way, for slightly more of an investment.

    I don't see why they should be obligated to provide a free transfer option for changes that are still within the stated policy of a PvP realm. If they'd changed the policy and allowed for a significant change in the experience as a result, sure, I'd see an argument to be made there; you signed on to a realm based on the ruleset it uses, and if they change that ruleset, it could be argued they should offer you a way out rather than locking you in to the new ruleset without opting in. But that's not what's happening, here. There's nothing about the CRZ changes that in any way contradict the rules the policy sets out.

    As for why this is a big deal; people don't like changes. That's why, with pretty much any change Blizzard makes to the game, you'll see threads on the forums saying it's the worst thing since Hitler and Stalin's lovechild invented dubstep. If we were to suggest that THIS change necessitated a free transfer because it results in something a player doesn't like, you'd extend that same argument to other changes, as well. They nerfed your class and you don't enjoy it any more? Give everyone of that class a free class change! They add the new race models they're working on and you hate your new model? Free race changes!

    The issue here is that the changes CRZ wrought don't in any way contradict the stated policies. While they do change the game experience, so do most other changes Blizzard makes to the game. If you were to argue that Blizzard should offer a free way out here, I can't see how you couldn't extend that argument to basically every other major change Blizzard makes. That isn't how they've ever responded to these kinds of changes before, and I don't see why the addition of CRZ would be any different.
    Yeah, and?

    Every time blizzard makes mahor changes, they should offer free transfers or money back etc

    What could possibly be wrong with that!
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  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I understand there is no chance of changing anything and I've no problem with pvp.
    Well, for someone with "no problem" with PvP, you sure do seem to be griping a lot.

  5. #705
    The thing I find a bit odd is that pve realm players seeming to think they have an opinion on the matter.

    Pvp realms it's always been free for all leveling up and once leveled doing anything. Doing your dailies and keep your head on a swivel for those that will swoop in once you engaged something was always the attraction. If you play on a pve realm you really don't know anything about it. It's the whole point to pvp realms and what people that play on them signed up for.

    Now the advent of CRZ making low level zones gankfests with level 90's flying around preventing anyone from questing... is not that.

    The two examples are not the same thing. One is how it is on pvp realms and the other is just griefing enabled.

    Lastly, it's never been unrestricted pvp. There were always restrictions, always places where you were not under the gank threat.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  6. #706
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Well, for someone with "no problem" with PvP, you sure do seem to be griping a lot.
    I haven't made any complaints, just corrected some poor logic and pointed out some facts.
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  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Well, for someone with "no problem" with PvP, you sure do seem to be griping a lot.
    So few words to completely destroy all his pointless self-proclamined facts bringing posts ..

    Good day to you sir , good day!

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I haven't made any complaints, just corrected some poor logic and pointed out some facts.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    This thread exists because CRZ is a massive change to world pvp, and one that is obviously in practice against the basic idea of having a pvp server.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Oh and blizzard hasn't fixed pvp servers. it's detroyed them. It is providing world pvp, but not server based world pvp.
    Sounds more like you are blaming CRZ for PvP realms being out of control. Let's try this one on for size. Let's say CRZ is never introduced. Instead, another popular PvP MMO fails and every player runs over and rolls on a PvP server in Wow. Now every PvP server gets 100 new players. They spend all their time grinding to 90 just to grief lowbies. HOW the world gets repopulated should not be an issue. The FACT of the matter is the mechanics of PVP worlds have always allowed ganking, regardless of taking advantage of any glitches. This will NEVER change, and I, for one, hope it doesn't. I have my PvE realm for questing and raiding, and my PvP realm for all out world murdering. If people don't like what happens on a PvP realm, maybe they should just pack up their feminine products and move over to PvE.

  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    The thing I find a bit odd is that pve realm players seeming to think they have an opinion on the matter.
    If people are in this thread arguing about pvp servers, and don't play on pvp servers, they need to get out of the discussion. I don't show up to their raids or instances and try to say we should have pvp in their precious on-rails linear pve experience.

    Incidentally there have been some instances of raidIDs becoming cross-faction, but that was a long time ago and many laughs were had.

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Really?





    Sounds more like you are blaming CRZ for PvP realms being out of control. Let's try this one on for size. Let's say CRZ is never introduced. Instead, another popular PvP MMO fails and every player runs over and rolls on a PvP server in Wow. Now every PvP server gets 100 new players. They spend all their time grinding to 90 just to grief lowbies. HOW the world gets repopulated should not be an issue. The FACT of the matter is the mechanics of PVP worlds have always allowed ganking, regardless of taking advantage of any glitches. This will NEVER change, and I, for one, hope it doesn't. I have my PvE realm for questing and raiding, and my PvP realm for all out world murdering. If people don't like what happens on a PvP realm, maybe they should just pack up their feminine products and move over to PvE.
    No sir no sir, you shouldnt try tot use logic with him.

    It will make his skin burn and then he will have to go back into shadows to survive..

    In the meantime .. i wonder how many here are looking for his alts to perm gank if he is on a pvp server :P.

    Pro CRZ all the time.

    Hell i have been ganked just 2 days ago, and then killed about 10 hordes in 10mins .. its life .

  11. #711
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Really?





    Sounds more like you are blaming CRZ for PvP realms being out of control. Let's try this one on for size. Let's say CRZ is never introduced. Instead, another popular PvP MMO fails and every player runs over and rolls on a PvP server in Wow. Now every PvP server gets 100 new players. They spend all their time grinding to 90 just to grief lowbies. HOW the world gets repopulated should not be an issue. The FACT of the matter is the mechanics of PVP worlds have always allowed ganking, regardless of taking advantage of any glitches. This will NEVER change, and I, for one, hope it doesn't. I have my PvE realm for questing and raiding, and my PvP realm for all out world murdering. If people don't like what happens on a PvP realm, maybe they should just pack up their feminine products and move over to PvE.
    Both of those things you quoted me on are facts.
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  12. #712
    Warchief coldbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I haven't made any complaints, just corrected some poor logic and pointed out some facts.
    I.e., you've been griping a lot and you're rationalizing your griping by calling other people's arguments "poor", as well as calling your opinions "facts."

    Example:

    All PVE players are flower-sniffing bunny-loving keyboard turning mouthbreathers who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. It's a fact and you can't dispute it x100 times more than you can say no takebacks.

  13. #713
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldbear View Post
    I.e., you've been griping a lot.
    A cogent basis for argument (facts) is not an argument itself.

    Though it can be, if accepting those facts leads to an inevitable conclusion. Of course what you are doing is working backwards from that inevitable conclusion and then making the leap that it must be my personal position. (and then you are proceeding on that assumption.)

    Whatever.

    Facts are -

    blizzard radically changed the game environment after 8 years.
    you change stuff in a radical way, expect unhappy people.
    people tend to assume tomorrow will look a lot like today, especially in the absence of any other data.
    nowt wrong with any of this.
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  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Which blizzard doesn't have to provide.

    You don't get to pick and choose here. If you are up for the ToS meaning anything is changable, then anything is changable.
    I'm paying for the MMO experience, not a singleplayer game, nor a MORPG. The Massively experience has been missing from my game the past 3 years. The CRZ put it back in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Both of those things you quoted me on are facts.
    Definition of FACT: Dictionary Definition of FACT

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    This thread exists because CRZ is a massive change to world pvp, and one that is obviously in practice against the basic idea of having a pvp server.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Oh and blizzard hasn't fixed pvp servers. it's detroyed them. It is providing world pvp, but not server based world pvp.
    Those are OPINIONS of one person. Stop trying to mess up the World PvP we have finally been waiting for and go to a PvE realm if it bugs you so much. Go open a ticket and beg Blizz to let you move for free. Who knows? They might do it. But stop confusing OPINION with FACT.

  16. #716
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Definition of FACT: Dictionary Definition of FACT





    Those are OPINIONS of one person. Stop trying to mess up the World PvP we have finally been waiting for and go to a PvE realm if it bugs you so much. Go open a ticket and beg Blizz to let you move for free. Who knows? They might do it. But stop confusing OPINION with FACT.
    Neither of those quotes are opinions.

    CRZ removed the idea of a discrete server to pvp on - fact.
    CRZ is a massive change to world pvp - also a fact.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 04:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    I'm paying for the MMO experience, not a singleplayer game, nor a MORPG. The Massively experience has been missing from my game the past 3 years. The CRZ put it back in.
    You are paying for whatever blizzard gives, it's right there in the ToS.
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  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are paying for whatever blizzard gives, it's right there in the ToS.
    So you can spout this FACT to others, but when it comes to PvP servers, your quote is just "advice" not fact.

  18. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Neither of those quotes are opinions.

    CRZ removed the idea of a discrete server to pvp on - fact.
    CRZ is a massive change to world pvp - also a fact.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 04:04 PM ----------



    You are paying for whatever blizzard gives, it's right there in the ToS.
    Sorry but everyone in rl dies.

    And you are wrong .

    Now .. these ARE facts.

    And i obviously forgot the obvious .. apples arent oranges :P.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Neither of those quotes are opinions.

    CRZ removed the idea of a discrete server to pvp on - fact.
    CRZ is a massive change to world pvp - also a fact..
    PvP realms were never DEFINED by Blizzard as "discrete" - FACT
    CRZ allowed for more World PvP, but has never changed the fundamental dynamic of a PvP realm - FACT

  20. #720
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    PvP realms were never DEFINED by Blizzard as "discrete" - FACT
    Yes, they were.
    CRZ allowed for more World PvP, but has never changed the fundamental dynamic of a PvP realm - FACT
    Except for it no longer being a discrete server.
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