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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    yes, they chose a pvp server. And ow they aren't getting a pvp server. They are getting the pvp, but not the server.


    Oh you'd not win with a case for wow, it's frivilous, but for something larger theres loads of case law about. You can't provide a service for almost a decade then alter it overnight then claim you never had to provide what you had been doing. That'd be just daft.
    1: Your server argument is no longer valid and getting old. It's still the same RULES. The only difference is there are now more players in the dead zones, but it doesn't overload the servers. Get over it. There's no agreement that STV is gonna be empty so you can level safely, the only agreement is that you can kill people and they can kill you. And you chose that option.

    2: If the contract states "we can do whatever we want and you can cancel our agreement whenever you want" 8 years of habit means nothing.
    That's the deal WoW offers you.

  2. #1002
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    1: Your server argument is no longer valid and getting old. It's still the same RULES. The only difference is there are now more players in the dead zones, but it doesn't overload the servers. Get over it. There's no agreement that STV is gonna be empty so you can level safely, the only agreement is that you can kill people and they can kill you. And you chose that option.
    The only thing a pvp server says is that when pvp happens it will be with people from your server.

    Nothing about safety there, nothing about avoiding ganking - just that they will be people from your server.
    2: If the contract states "we can do whatever we want and you can cancel our agreement whenever you want" 8 years of habit means nothing.
    That's the deal WoW offers you.
    If a contract state "we can do whatever we want" then it's completely ignored in a dispute and practice (ie. what actually has been happening) is used to resolve disputes.
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  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    You don't understand, when he explicitly mentioned WoW, not D3.
    Let me break the statement down to how I see it.
    First of all, Jay Wilson is the Game Director of Diablo 3. I am not aware of him being in a major position regarding the development of World of Warcraft. His statements are not the statements of the World of Warcraft development crew, nor the statements of Blizzard as a whole.

    Even the amount that PvP can alter the game, the PvE game in WoW, is unacceptable to us.
    He is talking about the amount that PvP is altering the PvE game in World of Warcraft. They find it unacceptable to face a similar situation where the Diablo 3 PvE game would have to suffer from being altered due to PvP, especially in a similar amount.

    Whenever we run into a case of this would be really awesome for PvE and then the PvP guy goes. 'That kinda screws PvP', the answer is always...'Shut up PvP Guy' lol"
    This further elaborates the point he is making.

  4. #1004
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funky303 View Post
    Do you play basketball or some sport or games with friends? If you EVER behave like an asshole while playing with other people you'd get kicked out of the team, even if you behave like an ass against the other team. If you're in the wrong neigbourhood, you'd get punched in the face too ^^
    No, I do not play basketball nor any sport games but I did train judo in the past.

    Getting excluded/kicked out is one thing, assaulting someone for being an asshole another thing. One of them being against the law aswell and could land you in the court. Being an asshole isn't exactly against the law. Assaulting someone on the other hand is.

    People who want to assault someone over a game should seriously consider seeking help with anger management.
    Close your eyes and smile.
    [15:53] <PizzaSHARK> you have such a cute accent! ^_^

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The only thing a pvp server says is that when pvp happens it will be with people from your server.

    Nothing about safety there, nothing about avoiding ganking - just that they will be people from your server.
    The only thing (well not the only, but one of them) the ToS says is we can change things however we want.

    If a contract state "we can do whatever we want" then it's completely ignored in a dispute and practice (ie. what actually has been happening) is used to resolve disputes.
    Context. It's a game. If you bring this particular case to court he will smack you in the head with the hammer and say "first world problems" and possibly even send you to jail for wasting everyone's time.

  6. #1006
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    By practice and the basic english definition of the word server, there is.
    No, you're just making things up and pretending that what you imagine has any legal support at all. You may as well claim that WoW owes you a living, breathing, cinder kitten in real life because you totally thought you were buying an actual pet for $5. Making false assumptions does not lend those assumptions any credibility.

    If you're going to claim they AREN'T false assumptions, then source them, with either a blue post or a Blizzard realm policy. I'll even accept a dictionary definition if said definition specifically describes server community exclusivity; if it doesn't, you're inventing that and we're back to "making up false assumptions".

  7. #1007
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    It's funny how quickly Jay Wilson's words became law after being the most hated man in Blizzard since May. And not only that, the leading Diablo 3 developer being asked about things not in his department. If you can give me an interview with an actual WoW developer mirroring his thoughts, I'm willing to listen. Until then, your argument has no value.
    I think Ghostcrawler has that honor with merit.

    He has been a WoW developer since before D3 was in the works, and would know of the policies from Blizzard HQ itself. That's a design policy, Nerraw, regardless of department. It's well known that Blizzard regarded things like arena being one of their worst mistakes, for example...

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...ere-a-mistake/

    And please don't tell us because Pardo has no bearing on how WoW is made or the design philosophies at Blizzard. -_-
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  8. #1008
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    My argument doesn't require anything except to point at the evidence of 8 years of server based pvp.

    Pvp server meant only people from your server for 8 years. You can wave all the policies and blue posts you like - they don't matter. Things were how they were, and people made decisions based on how they were. How things are/were > some concept in a manual no one ever read.
    Not Blizzard's fault no one read it. It's their game, it's their rules. And their rules say that the only constant on PVP realms is being able to hit or be hit by the opposing faction at any time. That was true then, that is true now.

  9. #1009
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    The only thing (well not the only, but one of them) the ToS says is we can change things however we want.
    Which makes the ToS worthless.


    Context. It's a game. If you bring this particular case to court he will smack you in the head with the hammer and say "first world problems" and possibly even send you to jail for wasting everyone's time.
    I already said it was frivolous.

    Principle is sound, however. Take money for providing x for 8 years then stop or radically alter it or provide something else and you won't get away with it. Not even if you point to what is essentuially a blank piece of paper.
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  10. #1010
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    where did you go during woltk and cata?

    you stayed on your own server , oh wait...servers no longer exist and there lies part of the problem, the only reason i mentioned the bg/ rbg thing as because thats what a pvp servver seems to be turning into now a giant uninstanced bg
    I didn't go anywhere, why? Because no other server/servertype had what I was looking for, ie. the potential for finding yourself in a warzone no matter which zone you are in or what level you are. Why do you think there were so many complaints about the lack of world PVP? Because there were no people in the old world zones, not even on the densest populated realms.

  11. #1011
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, you're just making things up and pretending that what you imagine has any legal support at all. You may as well claim that WoW owes you a living, breathing, cinder kitten in real life because you totally thought you were buying an actual pet for $5. Making false assumptions does not lend those assumptions any credibility.

    If you're going to claim they AREN'T false assumptions, then source them, with either a blue post or a Blizzard realm policy. I'll even accept a dictionary definition if said definition specifically describes server community exclusivity; if it doesn't, you're inventing that and we're back to "making up false assumptions".
    No mate, this is after the fact.

    Blizzard HAVE provided pvp servers in the sense I mean them for 8 long years. They've taken the money, provided the service. Now they have changed it.

    There is no assumption being made, it's a fact that this occured.
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  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    And please don't tell us because Pardo has no bearing on how WoW is made or the design philosophies at Blizzard. -_-
    Class balance issues in PvP became more obvious with the introduction of the arenas and that is something the World of Warcraft development team has acknowledged. I have no reason arguing that. That is still a topic that largely affects competitive PvP and does not in any reasonable way affect world PvP which is not fair and balanced by design.

  13. #1013
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No mate, this is after the fact.

    Blizzard HAVE provided pvp servers in the sense I mean them for 8 long years.
    That bit in bold is where you make up stuff that has no bearing on anything. It only matters how Blizzard means them and defines them.

    They've taken the money, provided the service. Now they have changed it.

    There is no assumption being made, it's a fact that this occured.
    They have changed nothing about their own definitions of "PvP server". It changed something you assumed, but the stuff you made up is irrelevant.

  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Which makes the ToS worthless.
    Yet you agreed to it. Hm.

    I already said it was frivolous.

    Principle is sound, however. Take money for providing x for 8 years then stop or radically alter it or provide something else and you won't get away with it. Not even if you point to what is essentuially a blank piece of paper.
    You forget or choose to ignore the fact that the game is a different game than it was 8 years ago not just because of CRZ. If anything that's a minor thing compared to other major changes, at least to people who don't get hung up on things that really don't affect them as hard as say a simple class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No mate, this is after the fact.

    Blizzard HAVE provided pvp servers in the sense I mean them for 8 long years. They've taken the money, provided the service. Now they have changed it.

    There is no assumption being made, it's a fact that this occured.
    I don't think anyone denies that. They change things all the time. Have you even played the game?

  15. #1015
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Which makes the ToS worthless.
    It is when Blizzard ignores their own ToS, especially with the twink BG exploit. If Blizzard doesn't even follow it, how can players?

    Again it's leading by example, not excusing the law as someone sees fit.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
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  16. #1016
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    8 years of practice is the agreement. You perform a service for someone in the same way for 8 years and then alter it overnight, that person woud have a decent case in court, ToS style agreements would be ignored.
    So if some company breaks a contract continously for 8 years, it suddenly flies in court?

    Brb, creating shady businesses.

  17. #1017
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That bit in bold is where you make up stuff that has no bearing on anything. It only matters how Blizzard means them and defines them.
    No, pvp servers in the sense I have defined them on thsi thread are what factually has been delivered for 8 years. Even if blizzard didn't mean to, didn't define them that way and never intended to.

    It's just a fact. Accept it.

    They have changed nothing about their own definitions of "PvP server". It changed something you assumed, but the stuff you made up is irrelevant.
    I didn't assume anything, I simply described the facts of what has already occured for 8 years. You seem to think that a blank piece of paper or your own preferences changes that. It doesn't.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 07:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    So if some company breaks a contract continously for 8 years, it suddenly flies in court?

    Brb, creating shady businesses.
    No, what a company does for 8 years becomes the contract.
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  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by Brytryne View Post
    Not to everyone. I made you a picture, please study it.




    Sir, I love you for that picture, but I am afraid I have to implore you to change it from "RP nerds" to "RP elitists" or "RP extremists". I do roleplay, and I'm not like that.

    Thanks for the awesome sig, Lady Amuno.

  19. #1019
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    It is when Blizzard ignores their own ToS, especially with the twink BG exploit. If Blizzard doesn't even follow it, how can players?
    Terms of Service largely exists in order to protect the company and to give it the right to do whatever it sees fit. I would also be surprised if any part of it, however, required Blizzard to take action if no laws are being broken.

    Of course it is not a good practice to let blatant and notable breaches of the ToS go unpunished, but that again I think is another topic altogether.

  20. #1020
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    yes, they chose a pvp server. And ow they aren't getting a pvp server. They are getting the pvp, but not the server.
    I see nothing to prevent you from playing with people on your own realm.

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