Crying about PVP realms ''Blue'' response

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Are you talking about twinking in general, or some specific exploit?

Twinking was never an exploit, it was an optimization. No cheating was required.

You never knew about this twink exploit, moderator? Blizzard violated it's own ToS on an exploit by giving those twinks a green light to exploit BGs.

[Brytryne]

You never knew about this twink exploit, moderator? Blizzard violated it's own ToS on an exploit by giving those twinks a green light to exploit BGs.

Well that was informative.

[Nerraw]

When you could only play one faction per account. If you were Alliance you had to make a separate account to play Horde, paying 2x the price. So faction pride actually meant something -- nowhere else to turn, unless forking over more money.

I started playing 3 months before they changed it.

Chasing carrots. But the old world and it's world PvP always existed.

Rob Pardo also stated about PvP and arenas:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...ere-a-mistake/

They didn't foresee 10+ million players either. So instead of adapting and providing better server infrastructure to handle the masses, should they just have put a hard limit on how many people were allowed to sign up for the game at the same time to keep the numbers managable?

Which is a design and player problem. It's not like the stuff was taken out of the game. People are chasing carrots, and there's little carrots to get back into the world, at the expense of making new expansions (where Blizzard makes it money selling boxes). If the game is designed for end-game viability everything that's not end-game is neglected. The only players out and about in the old world at any regularity are those leveling toons -- which ganking hurts the game design of leveling alts (where Blizzard expects to make money due to the time to level them...50 per client).

Then give examples of carrots to be put there. Blizzard have faced the problem of the old world dying since TBC. If there were easy solution, we would have seen them ages ago, regardless of whether CRZ would later be implemented or not.

If this is working as intended I hope they don't expect it will keep players leveling. Killing their own prized alts is counterproductive even for PvP realms, as it can be tiring wasting time while 90s camp NPCs.

There will always be players leaving the game, there will always be players joining the game, and there will always be players levelling new alts for a number of reasons. And if new players are scared off by the harsh environment of a PVP realm, it's pretty darn easy for them to just go out and roll on a PVE realm instead, where none of the "detrimental" ganking takes place. I don't get it why PVP realms should ahve restrictions imposed upon them for the sake of levelling players when the exact protection that people seem to be demanding have already been in place on PVE realms for 8 years.

Tell that to BG twinks exploiting game mechanics and Blizzard giving them a green light. But by the same token, guilds that exploit game mechanics like Paragon got a tiny slap for doing so (compared to much harsher bans in WotLK).

Again, please elaborate on the BG twinks exploiting. Not all of us are as knowledgable as you in the shadier aspects of the game.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 10:58 PM ----------

(And you can't point to the ToS because it's a blank page.)

WORLD OF WARCRAFT®
TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT
Last Updated August 22, 2012
YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE “TERMS OF USE” OR “AGREEMENT”). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK “REJECT.” IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING A LICENSE TO THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS OF USE, THE BATTLE.NET TERMS OF USE, AND THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT, YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.

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Miscellaneous.

If any provision of this Agreement shall be unlawful, void, or for any reason unenforceable, then that provision shall be deemed severable from this Agreement and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining provisions. This Terms of Use Agreement is the complete and exclusive statement of the agreement between you and Blizzard concerning the Service, and this Agreement supersedes any prior or contemporaneous agreement, either oral or written, and any other communications with regard thereto between you and Blizzard; provided, however that this Agreement is in addition to, and does not replace or supplant, the EULA or the BNET TOU. This Agreement may only be modified as set forth herein. The section headings used herein are for reference only and shall not be read to have any legal effect.

I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I HAVE READ AND UNDERSTAND THE FOREGOING TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT AND AGREE THAT MY USE OF THE GAME IS AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF MY AGREEMENT TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT.

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html

(my apologies to the mods for the huge post, I will gladly take an infraction for having to do this bullcrap)

[Deadite]

You obviously do not enjoy the PvP realm playstyle and made it clear that you do not take part in it by playing on a PvE realm. This is fine.

Obviously you don't enjoy quoting the right person.

[Nerraw]

Would you agree that I as a paying customer should get my sentry totem back since it doesn't specifically say in the ToS that they were gonna remove it?

It was always there, but one day it was gone :<

While we're at it, I want my Drain Mana back too. Removed mid-season for being "imbalanced" in 2v2.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 11:01 PM ----------

Because in practice what they have provided for 8 years has gone.

Blizzard has no obligation to provide you with anything. If someone can't accept that, they're welcome to stop paying for the optional game they're playing. And by powers of the Twisting Nether, I wish some of you would do so. This game could use a lot less morons.

[Deadite]

They didn't foresee 10+ million players either. So instead of adapting and providing better server infrastructure to handle the masses, should they just have put a hard limit on how many people were allowed to sign up for the game at the same time to keep the numbers managable?

If all 10+ million people played on the same server you would have a valid point but they are spread out all over the world.

[Keoren]

Obviously you don't enjoy quoting the right person.

I already fixed it. I originally erased the wrong quote header.
Rest assured that I find great pleasure in quoting the right people.

You never knew about this twink exploit, moderator? Blizzard violated it's own ToS on an exploit by giving those twinks a green light to exploit BGs.

There is no violation. At worst there can be inaction or accepting an exception to their own rules. Both can be detrimental and arguable decisions, yes, but neither is something that they are not allowed to do.

Is the exploit you are talking about the case when characters with experience turned off were put into their own brackets and a way was found for them to access the normal brackets? This is the only recent one that I can recall. I believe that it has been fixed.

[Deleted]

(my apologies to the mods for the huge post, I will gladly take an infraction for having to do this bullcrap)

The important bit -

Blizzard reserves the right, at its sole and absolute discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete, at any time, any of the terms and conditions of this Agreement, any feature of the Game or the Service, hours of availability, content, data, software or equipment needed to access the Game or the Service, effective with or without prior notice;

The above makes the whole thing a blank page.

[Nerraw]

If you don't have a clue about it then why go to the effort to quote all that and then leap to the defense of Blizzard when you have no clue about it? White Knighting is unnecessary. Blizzard took the tech from DC:UO and made it better in someways. You can still like WOW and know that other games done some of the things first *Gasp* I know i do.

but since you say

Yeah i can see you will White Knight this to death so we will have to agree to dis agree before BenBro shows up and we derail this thread into closure.

I'd say tt's pretty obvious you're gonna "black knight" this to death. Blizzard just can't win, can they? If they do nothing, they're lazy because they're supposed to be all-knowing. If they do something, it's wrong and everything was better in the old days. Fucking pisses me off with the indecisiveness of this bloody generation.

If you are so upset with the game, stop paying, turn your back on it, and do something you enjoy. We will be better off for it, and so will you.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 11:06 PM ----------

You never knew about this twink exploit, moderator? Blizzard violated it's own ToS on an exploit by giving those twinks a green light to exploit BGs.

If you're afraid of getting infracted for going into even the least amount of details in public, please PM it to me. Because so far you have said absolutely nothing that can be used for anything whatsoever.

[Endus]

Because in practice what they have provided for 8 years has gone.

What was it you said a few moments ago?

How things are is their definition.

Right. Not how they were. How they were is irrelevant, since it's how things are that defines them.

According to you, anyway. It would help if you remained consistent.

You never knew about this twink exploit, moderator? Blizzard violated it's own ToS on an exploit by giving those twinks a green light to exploit BGs.

I asked you what, exactly, you thought was an exploit.

As near as I can tell, you're calling twinking itself an exploit, and that's not true, at all. Twinking was never exploitative. It was an exercise in legitimate optimization.

If there's some other specific actual exploit you're talking about, you haven't mentioned it yet. Twinking itself wasn't one.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 05:10 PM ----------

The important bit -

Blizzard reserves the right, at its sole and absolute discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete, at any time, any of the terms and conditions of this Agreement, any feature of the Game or the Service, hours of availability, content, data, software or equipment needed to access the Game or the Service, effective with or without prior notice;

The above makes the whole thing a blank page.

No, it doesn't. You have some seriously loopy ideas about what invalidates a legal agreement.

[Deleted]

What was it you said a few moments ago?

Right. Not how they were. How they were is irrelevant, since it's how things are that defines them.

According to you, anyway. It would help if you remained consistent.

I have remained consistent. Blizzad changing what a pvp server means today doesn't change yesterday. What are you, a goldfish? No memory?

How they were is relevent because that's the basis people agreed. The agreement can change and people can then disagree and this is perfectly fine. Except you don't seem to like that people can disagree with blizzard for some weird reason.

[Deadite]

I

If you are so upset with the game, stop paying, turn your back on it, and do something you enjoy. We will be better off for it, and so will you.

I was wondering when this old chest nut would come out. I enjoy playing wow very much. I know this may come as a shock to you but some people can enjoy playing wow but dislike some aspects of it. So your solution is if i don't like CRZ i should fuck off? Seems to be a a pretty common reply these days sadly. If you don't love every single part of the game you ain't welcome.

[Nerraw]

The important bit -

Blizzard reserves the right, at its sole and absolute discretion, to change, modify, add to, supplement or delete, at any time, any of the terms and conditions of this Agreement, any feature of the Game or the Service, hours of availability, content, data, software or equipment needed to access the Game or the Service, effective with or without prior notice;

The above makes the whole thing a blank page.

Nope. It just means that the above is current policy until it is changed. Everything on that page may be changed, but as long as it's there it's the law of the game.

[Deleted]

Nope. It just means that the above is current policy until it is changed. Everything on that page may be changed, but as long as it's there it's the law of the game.

Oh ok, pvp servers meant discrete server when people join it then.

Fine by me.

[Nerraw]

I have remained consistent. Blizzad changing what a pvp server means today doesn't change yesterday. What are you, a goldfish? No memory?

How they were is relevent because that's the basis people agreed. The agreement can change and people can then disagree and this is perfectly fine. Except you don't seem to like that people can disagree with blizzard for some weird reason.

People wanting to turn PVP servers into PVE servers is good reason for many of us to come out of the shadows.

[Deleted]

People wanting to turn PVP servers into PVE servers is good reason for many of us to come out of the shadows.

People had pvp servers, which got changed when CRZ came in.

[Endus]

People had pvp servers, which got changed when CRZ came in.

And now they still have PvP servers.

You've consistently failed to provide even the barest smidgen of evidence that there's anything untoward about adding CRZ.

[Deleted]

And now they still have PvP servers.

You've consistently failed to provide even the barest smidgen of evidence that there's anything untoward about adding CRZ.

I don't have to, the thread is proof in and of itself.

Bringing in CRZ in no way breaks the terms of the ToS. Nor does it break any definition given by blizzard.

It does, however, change the game that people joined and the nature of servers which people had played on for 8 years. This gives them a perfectly reasonable justification for complaint and request that it gets sorted out. Blizzard are perfectly within their rights to not do any of that, and people are perfectly within their rights to say they never agreed to it.

For some reason you don't like the idea that blizzard can be disagreed with. Why?

[Nerraw]

I was wondering when this old chest nut would come out. I enjoy playing wow very much. I know this may come as a shock to you but some people can enjoy playing wow but dislike some aspects of it. So your solution is if i don't like CRZ i should fuck off? Seems to be a a pretty common reply these days sadly. If you don't love every single part of the game you ain't welcome.

According to some people, levelling, along with general community feeling, has been completely ruined on PVP realms due to the advent of the CRZ, thus ruining much of what has made the game enjoyable to said people. And since you seem to be taking their side of the argument, you should be prepared to be lumped in the general group as them when discussing this with other people when you don't clarify your general stance on the game overall.

[Endus]

I don't have to, the thread is proof in and of itself.

Bringing in CRZ in no way breaks the terms of the ToS. Nor does it break any definition given by blizzard.

Which is all that really matters.

It does, however, change the game that people joined and the nature of servers which people had played on for 8 years. This gives them a perfectly reasonable justification for complaint and request that it gets sorted out. Blizzard are perfectly within their rights to not do any of that, and people are perfectly within their rights to say they never agreed to it.

For some reason you don't like the idea that blizzard can be disagreed with. Why?

I've never said people couldn't complain about CRZ. I've been saying;
1> It doesn't fundamentally breach any prior agreements with their customers,
2> complaints about increased ganking boil down to players having rolled on the wrong server type and Blizzard is not at fault for customer error, and
3> The increased population that CRZ provides is a significant boon, and generally outweighs the other negatives.

To expand on #3 with an example, complaints about the ease of exacting revenge at a later date; yes, it's more difficult post-CRZ with people from other servers. CRZ however created that opportunity to get ganked; adding the increased ganking is itself a gain, while the difficulties in pursuing revenge mitigate that, it's still a net positive, since the alternative is empty zones without population.

The thread has mostly been complaining about #2, and those individuals should just play on the PvE servers they'd prefer, rather than trying to ruin PvP servers for those players who enjoy them. #1 has been basically just you.