Its not a bloody lie. I already explained in a previous post I am leveling, and you are just vulture above the sky waiting for something red (which is another flaw: it shouldn't be red, it should be green, since it doesn't harm you). I die, I have to corpserun. I can't level. But you are continuing your fruitless activity.
You're either with us, or without us. Put your bot off and stop emulating G.W.Bush jr!It is a viable option, and it doesn't matter that there isn't a third middle-ground option. There are two. You get to pick one of them for your character. You might not like either as ideal, but that doesn't make either "wrong", it just means you need to pick.
Ahaha, I knew this would become an argument of yours 3 pages ago. People are inherently stupid and select the default option. For example, when I started playing WoW I did not even expect to play it much at all, and I select the realm which said "new players".The entire reason for the PvP server ruleset with the no-limits system is because of popular demand. It's what people wanted. If they didn't want a no-rules PvP server, it wouldn't be such a popular server type.
I already told you popularity isn't an argument.
And we haven't tested out my suggestion. My suggestion is very close to a PvP realm. It is exactly like a PvP realm. It is actually more close to a PvP realm (since PvP is about competition, and ganking makes one of the two not go tango and not able to even play the game). It'd still allow world PvP. It'd even promote it, since my suggestion would embrace CRZ too, and would stimulate people to level in the open world because... guess what... *whispers* they can't be ganked by high level. There's a shitload of people who don't even quest anymore these days.
No it isn't. It is very relevant, it is the core issue we are discussing. We are discussing the killing by a level 90 to a level 10. You find it irrelevant, you find it completely fair. Yet nobody likes to be ganked. How is this possible? Magic!The chance to fight back is entirely irrelevant.
The problem becomes some people enjoy and want to pvp...even wpvp. But they can't even get to the highest lvl to pvp.
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 12:47 PM ----------
Not green. But if it is not an honorable kill...their name should not even appear over their head until you mouse over them imo
We've seen level normalization work in SWTOR (although there wasn't ability normalization) although there wasn't gear normalization. We also see level normalization being applied on PTR today in BG brackets, when lvling. Its a recent trend we see more popular and applied (GW2 has both gear as well as level normalization).
No, it doesn't. PvE realm does not allow PvP between players of same level without consent (PvP realm allows this). PvE realm allows when PvP flag is on any level to attack (my proposal, a hybrid type of realm, doesn't suffer from this issue). PvE still shares resources (quest mobs, herbs, etc) between people in BiS mal and people who are still leveling.People need to understand everything they are looking for already exists on PvE realms. They should just move and quit trying to ruin PvP with crazy "solutions".
Why can't you people discuss about a proposal someone gives instead of repeating your bifurcation ad infinitum.
There are are thousands and thousands of players at lvl 90 and more hitting 90 every day. People who are determined to win will hit 90. People who QQ or give up easily will just quit or reroll on PvE. The whole purpose of World PvP is much like the Ebonhold for the LK. Find the ones that are suited for WPvP and weed out the rest.
If they hate dying A LOT, they can go to a PvE realm. They will hold their hands through zones, dungeons, and everywhere else, and when they are "ready" for PvP, they can flag, or hit the Arena/BG. Easy solution. No need to fix a realm of gameplay that isn't broken. What's broken is the mentality of players thinking PvP is like Burger King and they can have it whenever they want and get it there way. Its more like prison sex... done the other guys way whether ya like it or not lol. You either get tough (level up) and fight back, or become the bitch on the cell block lol.
It isn't war if you shoot at someone who cannot defend themselves. If you're in Bosnia and shooting at a kid who happens to be in a house because his dad is running around with a gun we call that ethnic cleaning, genocide. It is completely pointless. There's no competition. There's no harm done to the shooter. It is like the massacres at schools happening in the States.
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 06:54 PM ----------
If it was illegal to do it, I wouldn't be discussing an alternative. where did you learn arguing and logic. I guess Not at the same place I learned Latin.
That's exactly my point. At the end of cata (before CRZ...which just made it worse) I was stuck on hellfire for over 3 weeks+...because on our server we have a hunter that would just live there 24/7. I wouldn't know if he is still there because mist came out and I stopped lvling that warrior (guess what he is still in hellfire when I get back). So really if alls I wanted to play was that warrior...I pissed away not only time but money (this game isnt free) to sit in hellfire for close to a month.
Now...what if I want to wpvp at lvl 90, your suggesting me to hop to lvl...then hop back when I get my 90?
Like that is going to happen...
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 01:05 PM ----------
All the people that are defending camping of low lvls probably think that the halfhill farm retreat is probably the best world pvp they ever created
Anything but real pvp is good in their eyes lol
Yes, they're game avatars, but behind those avatars are people who have feelings. Who's making a false compare here? Look if it was fun to gank a low level NPC people would be doing it all the time, even the PvP heroes. They'd all go to Org, and kill NPCs there, and be like lol I'm pwning level 10 hahaha lololol. But that's not fun is it, no the "fun" lies in making sure another player cannot play the game IOW bullying (am I allowed to use that word moderator Endus?) and griefing (allowed word yes?)
Because you only need 1 joker who's going to corpsecamp ya."Etiquette" and "morals" were never intended to address anything.
Not according to you. But the public outcry on CRZ and in general of world PvP costs Blizzard subscriptions, and my proposal is a nice, unique middle ground between. You don't like it, that's alright, I don't give a shit, you'd be able to play on your "pure" PvP realm just as-is. I'd live among a more advanced civilisation where we leave people who are low level alone.Nor is there a "problem".
There's so many people agreeing with me in this thread its actually crazy. You see all these people who are saying "well I'm all for world PvP and PvP but you know it isn't PvP when it is low versus high level"? Those people would be fine with a system where such would be prevented by game rule / phasing.
Heroin was also once very popular. As was ampthetamine. Doesn't make them good, doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives possible. Lets look to the future and try to make the game positive instead of leave Endus' nostalgic values intact.PvP realms are working exactly as intended and are wildly popular as they are.
Those are NPCs. NPCs don't have feeling, they're like slaves, except slaves have feelings. There's a distinctive difference, but if you do not see it I certainly can understand your point of view. You have an inability to experience empathy for someone you hurt because you project (one of your fav words) that they are nothing more or less than a NPC, an AI, a robot. Well they're not. Subconsciously, the ganker knows this very well:Besides which, it's a war setting. Brutal and immoral things happen regularly, on both sides. Immorality is an integral and indivisible part of the escapism of the game itself. You level by murdering "innocents".
WRONG. Then those gankers would be ganking all day long the NPCs in in Icecrown and Nagrand. Which they don't. It'd be PvE, and there is no human response. Bullies want a confirmation of existence, a response.It doesn't matter if there's a player behind the screen, or if it's NPC code; to the player there's no difference,
Except for the confirmation/response there is no external reward in ganking. There is no game mechanic which rewards, and there's also not some kind of competitive factor going on.you are still called on to murder things for rewards.
And look what happened to SWTOR. It was abandoned and left for WoW and GW2 that have real PvP. (Player vs Player, not gear vs gear or level vs level, or skill vs skill)
Because there is NOTHING WRONG IN PVP except someone's anecdotal personal opinion and view. We are merely enjoying a game which Blizz has already set forth the rules. Also, PvE fits EVERY piece of criteria you want.
On PvE, a low level can:
1) Level without the fear of being ganked as long as he is not flagged. He just has to worry about the quest givers occasionally getting ganked.
2) Go ANYWHERE on the planet without flagging, short of Arenas, BGs, a few dailies, and enemy cities (all of which make sense)
3) Can flag whenever he chooses instead of always being flagged in contested territories
4) Can choose a multitude of SAFE leveling options and get geared at his leisure.
5) Can share the same space as lvl 90 players without having a slaughter break out.
6) No warning message when creating the character letting them know they will be killed at any time and the danger is real.
Blizz made PvP servers for Player versus Player action. Not 1 v 1, not level v level, not gear v gear, or skill v skill. NOTHING about PvP is balanced or fair. Nor should it be. Blizz even agreed SO MUCH, they removed Dishonorable kills a LONG time ago. You need to just get over your moral high ground for an issue that is not even an issue and let the lowbies decide to continue playing and man up on a PvP realm, or cut their losses at level 10 and go re-roll on a PvE realm.
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 11:13 AM ----------
You're just like the other sad panda in this thread. You don't want World PvP, you want "fair duels". Bad news. Nothing on a PvP realm is fair. The sooner you all figure that out, the sooner you can move to PvE and start liking the game again. PvP realms are just fine as is.
Quite the opposite. I world pvp quite a lot and am in a guild that really only does organized world pvp (I don't pve at all anymore minus LFR every once and a while). And in reality, I suck. I die more then kill most likely. So I do not want to see world pvp gone at all. I just would like to see a little more protection for the weak (low lvl) bc it is hell to lvl on pvp servers...
And I like to see how many people say they like to wpvp but seem to only like it against people lower then their lvl.
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 01:32 PM ----------
He doesn't want a PVE server...the problem is there is no RIGHT server type for people that want wpvp at max lvl but not while leveling. If you would actually read his posts, you would see that (he says he likes pvp not high to low lvl pvp)
Could be, but it worked reasonably well. I don't care how popular SWTOR is or was. It doesn't matter for the example. Its not like you proven some kind of correlation between the popularity of SWTOR and the level normalization in WZs.
I imagine you stamping your feet here, but I pointed out there's a better system which is a good middle ground between PvP and PvE server.Because there is NOTHING WRONG IN PVP
Every time someone complains about world PvP it is "just a projection" and "just someone's experience" and "just a view point".except someone's anecdotal personal opinion and view. We are merely enjoying a game which Blizz has already set forth the rules.
No, PvE realms discourage players to play world PvP. I want to do the exact opposite of that. I want to encourage players to play in the world, to meet other players of same level to engage in world PvP. A PvE realm doesn't provide that. How often do I have to repeat it to get it into your and Endus thick head?Also, PvE fits EVERY piece of criteria you want.
I suggest to have PvP on by default, but only between people of same level (so you can get immersive combat right away).1) Level without the fear of being ganked as long as he is not flagged. He just has to worry about the quest givers occasionally getting ganked.
In my proposal, being flagged PvP is OK. You cannot get one shot by a level 90. They don't even see you.2) Go ANYWHERE on the planet without flagging, short of Arenas, BGs, a few dailies, and enemy cities (all of which make sense)
Which isn't what I want. I want to stimulate world PvP between people who have same level. Again, PvE server doesn't allow this.3) Can flag whenever he chooses instead of always being flagged in contested territories
The only additional leveling option would be world questing. I don't want world questing to be safe; I want it to be immersive, and in the case of PvP, competitive.4) Can choose a multitude of SAFE leveling options and get geared at his leisure.
I don't want to see level 90, I don't want to see them hover over me able to one shot me, kill my mobs, CC me for the lulz, or grab resources like herbs. In my system, level 90 wouldn't see me. They'd be phased.5) Can share the same space as lvl 90 players without having a slaughter break out.
My system would show obviously a different kind of warning. You won't be able to get ganked by level 90s. It'd sell like hot cakes. Nobody likes being ganked. You like to be ganked? You wanna gank others? You rebel! Roll on the PvP anarchy server and meet BeastmasterGuardian's rogue!!6) No warning message when creating the character letting them know they will be killed at any time and the danger is real.
Nope, I want competitive PvP. I don't want ganking. There are some people who want no world PvP at all -> PvE realm. There are some people who want ganking and anything goes PvP -> PvP realm. The people who PvP between equal level, like me, don't have a place.You're just like the other sad panda in this thread. You don't want World PvP, you want "fair duels".
WoW has more issues than just this (such as my class being broken cuz of PvP). They go beyond the scope of this topic.Bad news. Nothing on a PvP realm is fair. The sooner you all figure that out, the sooner you can move to PvE and start liking the game again. PvP realms are just fine as is.
World PvP =/= Level vs Level. It can't be both ways, which is why Blizz made PvE realms. Roll on a PvE realm, get to 90, go do arenas or bgs. Then you get PvP on your own terms. PvP realms are designed to be bullies, slaughtering, camping, killing lowbies, and big fights at world bosses. If people can't handle that fact, there are more suitable realms for them. They're called PvE.
Corpse camping is explicitly allowed on PvP realms. If you don't approve, you should be sticking to the "standard" PvE ruleset. That's the entire point of the separate rule sets.
The lie is when you attach a moral stance to the above behaviour. Particularly when everyone getting ganked there has consented to that kind of activity.
Since you liked Latin so much a few pages ago, here's four more you should take to heart.Ahaha, I knew this would become an argument of yours 3 pages ago. People are inherently stupid and select the default option. For example, when I started playing WoW I did not even expect to play it much at all, and I select the realm which said "new players".
Ignorantia juris non excusat.
Ignorance of the rules is no excuse.
And yet, I can prove this wrong, conclusively.No it isn't. It is very relevant, it is the core issue we are discussing. We are discussing the killing by a level 90 to a level 10. You find it irrelevant, you find it completely fair. Yet nobody likes to be ganked. How is this possible? Magic!
I like being ganked. I like having that threat looming over me at all times. Sure, I may gnash my teeth when it happens, but if it didn't happen occasionally, I would enjoy the game significantly less.
So your claim that "nobody likes it" is false. Fundamentally untrue at its core. You are projecting your own personal preferences on the community as a whole.
You can't seriously expect me to agree that if you tick the box saying "yes, I consent to being ganked by anyone of any level at almost any time, I consent to being corpse camped, I consent to whatever dishonorable activities the enemy may resort to", that you can't be held responsible for the consequences of that consent.
If you don't like PvP servers, don't play on 'em. That doesn't mean you need to claim that those who DO like them are "less advanced" or "immoral" or "bullies". That's just launching ad hominem attacks because you can't actually come up with a logical, coherent explanation that demonstrates any objective flaw in the server type. Your entire argument boils down to "I don't like it".
And that's fine. Play on PvE servers. Problem solved.
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 01:37 PM ----------
It's not "better". It's what you'd prefer. There's a big difference, and you've failed to provide any objective reasons why the current PvP servers are flawed, or why your new system would be objectively better.
You signed up to pvp and then complain about players doing pvp against you.. That like going into a raid and complaining that the bosses keep trying to kill you, or that the players of the opposing faction in a bg are ruining your fun. Three loud cheers for the blue response. Don't like PVP, move.
You and I both have no proof that is what they were designed to be when they first made them. We both have very different point of views...I imagine they thought the world would be deadly but most of the 60's (at the time) would be around the higher lvl areas where they had more stuff to do killing each other, meanwhile lvl'ers killed lvl'ers. Obviously it didnt pan out that way, but it doesn't mean that wasn't the original thought. And you have a really hard time getting it through your head that I world pvp...just usually against 90's. And I don't mind being killed while doing my dailies in pandaria and what not. It happens. The good news is, when i get back to my corpse, i can fly away and do other stuff (there is plenty of stuff to do at lvl 90). That is not the case for someone trying to get lvl 90...over half the time they can't even fly which means, they are stuck
Under my proposal there would be world PvP and level vs level (roughly).
Apart from the fact you're too late to grind the PvP gear right now (another design issue beyond the scope of this topic), and would need to grind PvP gear in the first place (idem (mea culpa for the Latin), this does not allow world PvP. World PvP is competitive. The other thing isn't combat, it one shotting someone with moonfire as a feral druid no lesswhich is why Blizz made PvE realms. Roll on a PvE realm, get to 90, go do arenas or bgs. Then you get PvP on your own terms.
Nobody likes being bullied.PvP realms are designed to be bullies, slaughtering, camping, killing lowbies, and big fights at world bosses. If people can't handle that fact, there are more suitable realms for them. They're called PvE.
The description of something failing is the opposite of "it worked reasonably well". If it had worked, everyone would be rolling toons on SWTOR and just PvPing there.
Nah, I sometimes use bold capital letters to help people, who refuse to read, actually see my message. There is no middle ground needed. That is your opinion not Blizzard's game. They made PvP, PvE, RP (PvE), and RP (PvP). If there had been a need for a 5th "Level V Level" realm, they would have made one after 8 years.
Everything we say is personal opinion. It just happens that Endus and I share the same view and opinion as Blizzard Entertainment as it pertains to WoW World PvP.
Not Anymore. Operation Shield Wall, The Northrend dailies (all 3 sections in Grizzly hills), Hellfire Penn / Terrokar capture quest dailies, and more invite World PvP into a Pve realm and you don't see a dozen threads a day asking them to remove the PvP objective status from the PvE realms.
So you want a Level versus Level server and not a Player vs Player server. Got it. Will never happen. Blizz likes the imbalance of PvP and have said so themselves.
So you intend to phase 9 different levels into 20+ different possible copies of zones. Resource nightmare and requires moderating something that isn't even broken. PvP = PvP regardless of level
So you want a Level versus Level server and not a Player vs Player server. Got it. Again. Not gonna happen, they would have done it already and will take way too many resources to maintain considering the number of PvP realms.
So no dungeons for leveling. Yeah, that will get the player base on board. 1/2 of them grind dungeons as it is.
So, no other players in your MMO except the ones you could beat in a fight and have cloaked 90s taking your resources as you wonder why that node just despawned. Again... not gonna happen. Multiphasing for convenience on a realm that anything goes is a waste of money and resources.
Yeah, cause you're Rebel Without A Clue Crusade would upset more than just one or two people. The couple hundred people who would get saved would be the PRIME TARGETS of players who like their World PvP the way it is. They would roll a toon in every bracket, twink it, and completely RUIN your paradise. I would do it just to see your jaw drop
Again, Level versus Level, not PvP
Yeah, it has a bunch of whiners that are in a no win scenario and don't know how to look for the exit. They can man up or gtfo of our PvP realm.
---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 11:54 AM ----------
Who gives a shit? lol. This is what PvP realms are all about. People need to untuck their skirts and find the exits