Crying about PVP realms ''Blue'' response

[articulate]

Blizz made PvP servers for Player versus Player action.

Exactly right. This implies far more than you currently understand, though. Players aren't merely pixels in the way that NPC's are pixels; players are, first and foremost, people. When a player/person bullies another player/person--whether in real life, or in a game, or in a social network--that choice to bully others says something about the bully and his/her personality that no terms-of-service verbiage can morally justify.

The very act of bullying is an outward expression of an inward reality. Not every environment in life allows the bully to safely express his/her need to be hurtful to others and out of self-preservation, they keep their personality disorders in check; some do, anyway.

Now, introduce a game where the impossibility of adequate moral policing is well understood by the game maker. They give players 2 choices: be totally safe except by mutual agreement, or go wide-open in the world with all the attendant risks and frustrations.

So far, I'm totally in agreement with this philosophy.

Now, introduce the variety of human personality. Yes, of course there are going to be some people who maintain their sense of decency in the characters that they play in the game. Nobody really has an cause to complain about that.

The complaints come in when other people abandon that sense of decency at the login screen. Being free to be a jerk doesn't imply that being a jerk is appropriate to the context of the game. What context is that? Well, first, it's a game. It's meant to be played, and it's meant to be fun.

Second, as you pointed out, it's a game being played by people, not pixels, or toons, or levels, etc.

So then, as people playing a game, ask yourself whether you have any morally justifiable ground upon which to defend your right to make other people miserable simply because the terms of service provide the space to make those choices? And, if you don't have any morally justifiable ground for bullying other people in the way you play the game, then why bully other people?

I can't stress enough the importance of comprehending the idea that the freedom to behave badly isn't an invitation to do so; isn't an endorsement of said behavior.

PvP isn't a bullying environment by definition, but by participation. PvP may continue, quite enjoyably to some, in a PvP realm without requiring a bullying dynamic. How many times will you ignore the simple truth that just because you can doesn't mean you should? Again, permission isn't endorsement.

For this point you have no rebuttal; no refutation. All you have is your mantra about the terms of service allowing such behavior. Why does it say that players/people should expect such dynamics? Because Blizzard actively endorses and encourages it? No, not at all. It's because they recognize that some people will refuse to police themselves and introduce this jerk-dynamic into a game that could be just as fun without the jerks.

Well, not fun for the jerks, actually, because a bully needs a victim. I'm betting that Blizzard has determined that it's profitable to provide bullies with virtual worlds where they can express their personality disorder choices without physically harming other people. And I'm betting that Blizzard has determined that there's no legal liability to them in so doing. Neither of those determinations in any way endorses or encourages such personality disordered choices; and those disordered choices certainly aren't definitional elements of PvP proper.

So when you're ready to take an honest look in the mirror at the implications of your current perspective, please do. Until then, realize that intelligent people will always see through the smoke-screen of bullies who try to present themselves as if they're just doing what's expected and allowed; that they have no moral obligation to evaluate their behavior or to police themselves on a level beyond the 8-year old mentality of doing/taking whatever one wants by whatever means is accommodated.

That probably sounds like a sarcastic slant but I assure you that it's nothing of the sort. There's a clinical edge there that's quite worthy of your time and attention if only you would give it that. There's also a clinical edge that recognizes the unliklihood that you, and others similarly oriented as you are, will give the time and attention it deserves.

Because bullies don't really care about anything except their own interests. And your interests, based on your comments in this thread, include preserving the freedom to be a bully.

When you stop pretending that you're only doing what's expected of you (Nuhremberg trials, anyone?) and/or that you're only doing what's inherent in the definition of PvP (minimization/denial, anyone?) and own the fact that you, and people like you, taint the PvP realm experience with your admitted bullying, has this topic a snowball's chance in hell at being correctly understood in an appropriate context.

Until then, it's just pathological personalities en masse criticizing other people for calling out pathological behavior (bullying) for what it is.[/QUOTE]

[Endus]

Most people can agree that it's more fun to be attacked by someone around your level than someone impossibly more powerful. Sure, you may tolerate ganking, but I don't think ANY people prefer it.

Again, I absolutely do. It's a totally different dynamic. If I want an equal "fair" fight, there's battlegrounds for that. World PvP gives me the adrenaline rush of avoiding an enemy I can't defeat face-to-face. It's much like any stealth game, where you can't get spotted or the guards shoot you. Same deal.

Do I expect everyone to feel the same way? Of course not. That's why there's two server types.

[coldbear]

Don't the chance of getting raped, don't run around on the street. Same logic. Instead, how about we grow some ethics. But we failed to do that IRL. That's why we got the law. In-game we got a lil advantage compared to IRL. We can make laws which make it impossible to have some things happen! A novel idea! How about we prevent rape from happening in-game, even on PvP server.

Today I learned that ganking someone in an online computer game is equivalent of raping someone in real life.

Or how about No, it's not?

You agreed to PVP on a PVP server. Then you got PVP'd upon. Now you're crying. Get up and leave. Stop making your situation worse by staying in an environment you don't find fun.

[Seegtease]

Again, I absolutely do. It's a totally different dynamic. If I want an equal "fair" fight, there's battlegrounds for that. World PvP gives me the adrenaline rush of avoiding an enemy I can't defeat face-to-face. It's much like any stealth game, where you can't get spotted or the guards shoot you. Same deal.

Do I expect everyone to feel the same way? Of course not. That's why there's two server types.

Battlegrounds aren't the same. Killing players is your objective, not a surprise side-task. It's the whole reason you're there. It's a controlled environment and really there's nothing immersive about it.

In most stealth games, you SHOULD remain hidden, but if you aren't, you can at least fight your way out of it, but it'll be hard. WoW provides no such option. I approve of difficult and "you're likely to lose" battles. Those are worth it for the rare moments when you DO triumph over a more powerful enemy. However, stat gaps being what they are, this is not the case in WoW. There is no getting lucky hits or playing really well, because you were dead before the battle begun. If that's the kind of PvP you like, I'm gonna have to believe that you're in the minority, not us.

[lolalola]

Today I learned that ganking someone in an online computer game is equivalent of raping someone in real life.

The point here is that just because something is possible and allowed does not mean you should do it. Rape is a great example here for it went unprosecuted for a long, long time throughout our history.

All the people that are defending camping of low lvls probably think that the halfhill farm retreat is probably the best world pvp they ever created

Anything but real pvp is good in their eyes lol

Real PvP skill abusing phasing and sitting on a hill evading guards. People with an arena rating of the previous millenium aren't able to do that!

[thevoicefromwithin]

When you stop pretending that you're only doing what's expected of you (Nuhremberg trials, anyone?) and/or that you're only doing what's inherent in the definition of PvP (minimization/denial, anyone?) and own the fact that you, and people like you, taint the PvP realm experience with your admitted bullying, has this topic a snowball's chance in hell at being correctly understood in an appropriate context.

[/QUOTE]

Godwin, yay. And Nürnberg. Comparing videogame gankers with warcriminals is utterly absurd.

[SherbertLand]

Battlegrounds aren't the same. Killing players is your objective, not a surprise side-task. It's the whole reason you're there. It's a controlled environment and really there's nothing immersive about it.

In most stealth games, you SHOULD remain hidden, but if you aren't, you can at least fight your way out of it, but it'll be hard. WoW provides no such option. I approve of difficult and "you're likely to lose" battles. Those are worth it for the rare moments when you DO triumph over a more powerful enemy. However, stat gaps being what they are, this is not the case in WoW. There is no getting lucky hits or playing really well, because you were dead before the battle begun. If that's the kind of PvP you like, I'm gonna have to believe that you're in the minority, not us.

I disagree. I killed a level 90 as an 85 and it felt great. I was only able to do it because of how the environment was. If it was in a battleground or in front of org, I know I wouldn't have been able to pull it off. It's moments like that that make me always come back to pvp servrs.

[lolalola]

I disagree. I killed a level 90 as an 85 and it felt great. I was only able to do it because of how the environment was. If it was in a battleground or in front of org, I know I wouldn't have been able to pull it off. It's moments like that that make me always come back to pvp servrs.

If you are full PvP gear and he just dinged and has none that's not even difficult. Yes, gear is that powerful. The gear you obtain from leveling till 90 isn't even much better than DS HC gear.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 11:18 AM ----------

[...] If that's the kind of PvP you like, I'm gonna have to believe that you're in the minority, not us.

Well, you see, Endus here believes "everyone is OK with bullies and getting ganked", that the few people who complain "are just a bunch of whiners who should roll PvE", and the people who are all playing on PvP realm "are all happy and that nobody at all would be interested in a more morally enforced world". That seems to be the main reasoning of him and the Beast "I link my PvE alt and not my PvP main" fellow.

Isn't it ironic how Endus is using PvP servers running on Linux software which exists thanks to a license called the GPL which gives rights on top of copyright yet is more restrictive than BSD license and public domain in terms of giving back source code? 30 years ago a fellow believed, in a world where there was no such thing remotely close to GPL, a middle ground between proprietary and "anything goes" open source software. The GPL was born. Now source code is spread under this, and similar licenses, instead with big multi nationals like Google adopting it.

And there are tons and tons of more examples. Our entire legal system is based on nuances which apply shades of grey in an otherwise unfair black vs white world.

[creedster]

Why's everything have to be about skill? It's a game for babies.

[lolalola]

Again, I absolutely do. It's a totally different dynamic. If I want an equal "fair" fight, there's battlegrounds for that.

No, no. BGs are equal in numbers. That is what world PvP is not, and that's nowhere what I am suggested. BGs have an arbitrary, static map. World PvP can occur anywhere in the world.

World PvP gives me the adrenaline rush of avoiding an enemy I can't defeat face-to-face. It's much like any stealth game, where you can't get spotted or the guards shoot you. Same deal.

Many people don't like the fear of getting ganked or picked on by a bully. Solution: put the bullies together with the people who like getting bullied, together with those who like the "adrenaline rush" (as if you'd be constantly running around with that and then boom you're dead? *shrug*) would be able to play together. I guarantee you, you'd be ganked more during your leveling experience, but you're apparently alright with that. And then you have us who prefer a middle ground with a set of moral rules enforced on our own server.

Do I expect everyone to feel the same way? Of course not. That's why there's two server types.

Bifurcation. I provided an alternative. Why do you keep using fallacies in your reasoning? Don't you have some kind of argument? I also explained why PvE server doesn't cut it.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 11:50 AM ----------

Any my point was that it failed. Nobody ended up queueing for it, because the twinkers' entire gambit was about stomping on those without gear. I'm not arguing that gankers are noble types looking for a fair fight, I'm saying they're opportunistic bottom feeders and that's why they like PvP servers. And that without them, you won't see much activity on these "fair play PvP" servers, meaning they'll end up dead and unused, just like twink BGs did, for the same reason.

Why would it be like that if you have the majority of people on such a CRZ? Isn't the most immerse form of PvP the one where the outcome is not sure before it ended?

I argue twinks are a very, very small minority and follow a similar mindset as the gankers except against a twink one still has a chance to win. Of course there isn't enough of those for BGs. They're a lousy minority who screw it up for the rest. We have more structured PvP in BGs nowadays, with less level disparity, and it actually creates immerse BGs.

You weren't victimized in that case. You joined a server that explicitly allows that. Yes, they were picking on you, but in a way you'd stated that you were willing to allow.

Just because something is allowed and possible IRL does not mean you should do it. Example: cheat on your husband/wife.

It's like if you join an improv club, and you're doing an "insult slam" back-and-forth. You can't call that "bullying", because it's the rules of the game you agreed to, and it's supposed to be in good fun. If you're not having fun, maybe the improv club isn't for you?

Because you go to improv club and address specifically that. On a PvP server you're not signing up specifically to meet bullies. Furthermore, nobody actually bullies on such a club, and the level is equal. Nobody is going to completely smash the shit out of you so you die or get in hospital. Its more like tickling.

You're the one claiming your idea would be a grand success. You have provided precisely zero evidence that it would be or that there is widespread support for your idea.

Sometimes you do not know in advance an idea will be a great success but once implemented it works. Do you really think before a new law is implemented the lawmakers look at if the law is widely supported by population? No. Since the amount of people who support in society to be minimal and negligible there is indeed very little support for your version of the PvP realm.

I have countered with the demonstrated fact that twink BGs crashed and failed due to lack of interest, despite being basically the same in principle as what you're proposing.

Most people want to level up instead of twinking. The amount of people who lock their XP is marginal. Your compare is red herring.

If you're going to make claims, the burden of proof is on you to support them.

I did, but you keep ignoring them, because applying logic and reason in an argument isn't a strong trait of yours

The only relevant point is that you've made sweeping statements that "nobody enjoys it", and those statements were false, because *I* enjoy it.

You'd be an utter minority. Furthermore, you and your fellow bullies would have to find a different game to bully people online.

No, my logic is that you CHOSE to be born on this planet, KNOWING that it would open you to certain risks. And you had an alternative, where you wouldn't be subject to those risks. Those two capitalized words completely change the circumstances. Being born into certain circumstances implies they were forced upon you, and nothing was forced upon you with your server choice. It was spelled out for you in the server ruleset. You chose it, knowing those consequences, so you don't get to complain about them later on.

There was no alternative C. I was able to either join the Axis or the Allies and wasn't allowed to stay neutral. Now, I propose this alternative and you keep saying "but you were allowed to join the Allies". I didn't want to, I don't want to, it is very different.

There is no moral issue in play. Nobody is the victim. Sneaking up behind Billy and shooting him in the ass with a paintball gun at school? That's bullying. Sneaking up behind Billy while you're both playing paintball, and shooting him in the ass? That's part of the game. Conflating the two is blatantly dishonest.

No, one is a vulture, and the other one is a rat. The rat has no chance whatsoever to get away.

The principle remained the same, though; people used civilians to try and "bait" enemy players into aggroing them, to force DKs on the enemy. If you applied DKs to player characters, they'd do the same thing, with lowbies; any raid on a city would end up with everyone throwing their lowbies into the mess just to give everyone on the enemy raid extra DKs, punishing them for normal gameplay. It's the root reason why the DK system was removed in the first place; gankers didn't care, and it punished more even-tempered players for engaging in normal world PvP.

In EvE it works because of high sec versus low sec, and in EvE I am totally fine with ganking because the ganker loses as well. In WoW, there is no punishment for ganking. You gave your example on improv club. But there it is punch and be punched. A ganker isn't put in his place though. That's why he keeps doing it, that's why a bully keeps bullying. See, if I'd get bullied IRL, I would punch that person so hard, he'd never do it again. And if he'd still do it again, I'd... lets just say I'd resort to less friendly countermeasures.

[Endus]

Many people don't like the fear of getting ganked or picked on by a bully.

Nobody's getting bullied, on a PvP server. That's a false comparison at its core. The equivalent would be that, if you don't like eating meat, you call meat-eaters "murderers". Same type of argument. It's not based on logic or anything rational, it's about using alarming terms to try and force an emotional reaction.

It's all bullshit, and you know it full well. Almost nobody is getting "bullied" on PvP servers. Those few who do can use the harassment policy to deal with it. If the harassment policy doesn't apply, it's not bullying, it's the environment and experience you said you wanted.

Your entire argument is no better than the "meat is murder" types. It's not "bullying", and calling it such is an insult to anyone who's actually been bullied. It's the kind of behaviour you're supposed to expect on a PvP server. You're advised NOT to pick that server type if you don't want to experience that. If you pick a PvP server despite that warning, that's YOUR choice, and if you don't like it, the consequences for making that choice lie on you. Not Blizzard, for allowing it. Not everyone else on that server, who made an informed choice and knew full well what they were getting into, and desired that kind of experience.

The whole "there could be a third server type" thing is pointless. There isn't. And even if there was, that wouldn't make PvP servers pointless or "bad", or the behaviour that goes on there "bullying". Nor is the "I couldn't pick PvE because I like world PvP" thing an argument; PvP servers specifically say they are intended to allow dishonorable unfair PvP activity. It's not "we encourage PvP". It's "we're allowing no-holds-barred PvP". Not only do they not state that they want fair play, they specifically state that it should not be expected. If you want the greater structure for PvP that you're talking about, you are specifically advised to play on a PvE server. Which does allow for world PvP. You can flag yourself. If you only want "fair" fights, you can leave yourself flagged, and if anyone ganks you unfairly, you can just wait a few minutes and unflag and go about your day. PvE servers already provide most of what you desire, with none of the negatives you see in a PvP server. It doesn't matter if they aren't perfect for you; they're obviously closer to what you want than PvP servers, and PvP servers you clearly have a serious issue with. If you continue playing on them regardless, that's your own choice.

Now stop insulting everyone who chooses to play on PvP servers, just because you happen to not like the reason they exist. It's arrogant and condescending and rude, and it's precisely the kind of "bullying" you're falsely trying to accuse PvP players of.

[BeastmasterGuardian]

Now stop insulting everyone who chooses to play on PvP servers, just because you happen to not like the reason they exist. It's arrogant and condescending and rude, and it's precisely the kind of "bullying" you're falsely trying to accuse PvP players of.

I think we've beaten this dead horse into powder. It might just be time to close the thread since the only person responding to you had little more than personal conjecture and insults. It was ok for awhile when people were actually listening to each other and spouting fact vs opinion, but now heated opinion and insults are the driving force.

I vote for closing the thread and burying this dead horse.

[lolalola]

Nobody's getting bullied, on a PvP server. That's a false comparison at its core. The equivalent would be that, if you don't like eating meat, you call meat-eaters "murderers". Same type of argument. It's not based on logic or anything rational, it's about using alarming terms to try and force an emotional reaction.

Wrong, because bullying is not covered by law. You keep calling upon the ToS on the PvP server, but if we draw a real-life analogy then bullying on e.g. a high school is perfectly legal. EDIT: This post covers the "bullying isn't law" aspect.

It's all bullshit, and you know it full well.

Straw man.

Almost nobody is getting "bullied" on PvP servers.

Earlier you said:

Nobody's getting bullied, on a PvP server.

You contradict yourself.

Those few who do can use the harassment policy to deal with it. If the harassment policy doesn't apply, it's not bullying, it's the environment and experience you said you wanted.

You and I know very well harassment policies, both IRL, as well as in WoW, as well as in this specific example, are a nightmare to work with and apply. Millions of children are getting bullied every day on high school, and nobody is doing anything about it. It is the same in a game like WoW, and Blizzard does nothing about it. The low level character can do nothing about it _by_gameplay_.

Your entire argument is no better than the "meat is murder" types.

Straw man.

The whole "there could be a third server type" thing is pointless. There isn't. And even if there was, that wouldn't make PvP servers pointless or "bad", or the behaviour that goes on there "bullying". Nor is the "I couldn't pick PvE because I like world PvP" thing an argument; PvP servers specifically say they are intended to allow dishonorable unfair PvP activity. It's not "we encourage PvP". It's "we're allowing no-holds-barred PvP". Not only do they not state that they want fair play, they specifically state that it should not be expected. If you want the greater structure for PvP that you're talking about

Which is precisely why I crafted the 3rd realm alternatve. You don't like it, I don't give a rat you don't like. There is no loss for you if this was implemented. On the contrary, there is a gain for you: you would play with bullies, and you could bully. You would experience an increased experience of so-called adrenaline rush which you apparently gain from the possibility of being ganked. Alright, good, then we put you together with the other people who like that. And we put people like me together with people who like unstructured PvP sans level inequality in world PvP. There is a market for the latter, and you know if very well, because otherwise people wouldn't play BGs. They'd all ignore BGs; they'd play on world PvP instead.

you are specifically advised to play on a PvE server. Which does allow for world PvP. You can flag yourself.

Who are you kidding? I told you 3 times now throughout this thread -which you 3 times did not address- how on a PvE server the flagging is consentual (which I do not agree with) and the flagging allows any level to fight any level (which I do not agree with) which is functionality something neither a PvP server or a PvE server has. Who is being bloody ignorant here, moderator Endus? If a PvE server served my preference I would be smart enough to go play there. Newsflash: it doesn't serve my preference! And it does not serve the preference of those who agree with me, but see the PvP experiment where people would apply morals (those people do exist, in the masses) either.

with none of the negatives you see in a PvP server. It doesn't matter if they aren't perfect for you; they're obviously closer to what you want than PvP servers, and PvP servers you clearly have a serious issue with.

They're far from what I desire.

Now stop insulting everyone who chooses to play on PvP servers, just because you happen to not like the reason they exist. It's arrogant and condescending and rude, and it's precisely the kind of "bullying" you're falsely trying to accuse PvP players of.

Another fallacy. I am not insulting anyone. You are insulting me by keeping telling me that my experience and viewpoint do not matter. They are relevant, and they provide a suitable alternative which would work very well, if implemented. It is a hypothesis for a good reason. If anyone is bullying in this thread, it is you, by continuously replying with fallacies which I have post by post identified, named, and challenged.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 04:00 PM ----------

Also, I find it quite ignorant how everyone and their mother assumes I never played on a PvE server. I started playing WoW on a PvE server, and I did not like it exactly for the reasons stated: the inability to engage in world PvP while questing, against someone of roughly my own size. I have also played on a PvP server, and found it the other extreme due to ganking. But I never had issues leveling until CRZ arose. That's how I formed my opinion neither system is perfect, and neither system fills my needs.

The only argument you provided against mine is the one that twink BGs didn't sail. I provided a solid argument against yours, and you choose to ignore it, continuing your previous mantra.

[Pann]

Now stop insulting everyone who chooses to play on PvP servers, just because you happen to not like the reason they exist. It's arrogant and condescending and rude, and it's precisely the kind of "bullying" you're falsely trying to accuse PvP players of.

You're joking right?!? You've spent god knows how many pages in this thread arrogantly and condescendingly telling anyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong or ignorant. How many people have you actively engaged in arguing with in this thread? Five? Six? And now you are pulling the stop the insults card.

[coldbear]

Wrong, because bullying is not covered by law. You keep calling upon the ToS on the PvP server, but if we draw a real-life analogy then bullying on e.g. a high school is perfectly legal. EDIT: This post covers the "bullying isn't law" aspect.

You're trying to bully people in an online forum right now. Stop it, you big bad bully. Trying to stop PVPers from PVPing on PVP servers is kind of like the Nazis did to the Jews. You're basically doing the same thing.


Oh wait. None of the stuff that happens in an online computer game has a lick to do with real life. It is just a game. It's just pixels. I'm a fairly nice decent dude irl, I've put my life on the line to save people I don't know, yet online I just love to murder other people's characters out in the world when they're just running along doing whatever. Relax. Chill out. Let people play games the way they want. You on your server with your rules and me on my server with my rules. Or both on my server with you dead at my feet, if you absolutely must insist. I'm okay with it either way. But you're not a Nazi and I'm not a bully, mmmkay? There, there, does it still hurt? Rub some dirt on it, eat some ice cream, KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON.

[Nerraw]

You're joking right?!? You've spent god knows how many pages in this thread arrogantly and condescendingly telling anyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong or ignorant. How many people have you actively engaged in arguing with in this thread? Five? Six? And now you are pulling the stop the insults card.

He's right though. Blizzard actively encourages all forms of world PVP on PVP servers. If you can't handle that, it's not the place for you to be.

If you want limitations on PVP encounters, I suggest you either move to a PVE server or somehow get the message to Blizzard that they should make a new set of servers with the rules you want them to have. PVP servers are for unrestricted PVP. That includes ganking and "dishonorable" actions.

[Endus]

Wrong, because bullying is not covered by law.

Except that it oh so clearly is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-bullying_legislation

Who are you kidding? I told you 3 times now throughout this thread -which you 3 times did not address- how on a PvE server the flagging is consentual (which I do not agree with) and the flagging allows any level to fight any level (which I do not agree with) which is functionality something neither a PvP server or a PvE server has.

I haven't addressed it because it's irrelevant to the thread, or the argument you're making with regards to PvP servers. Sure, they COULD make a new server type, but they haven't. So what-ifs about a possible alternative don't really mean anything.

The existence of this theoretical server type wouldn't make PvP server rules change at all, and the rest of your argument is that the PvP rule set is objectively bad and harmful. That's why you label it "bullying" and use other weighted terminology. THAT is the argument I'm attacking. I'm ignoring this "third server" stuff because it is entirely irrelevant.

The point is; the PvP server rules are perfectly fine. Nobody is getting bullied because of those rules (or more specifically, the deliberate lack of protection they provide). The only possible "bullying" activities in WoW are already covered, on all server types, by the harassment policy. If you don't like the PvP rule set, don't play on PvP servers. That's as complicated as it gets.

If you'd just been posting that you wished there were a third server type, that would have been fine. The issue is, and always has been, your unwarranted attack on the PvP ruleset and the condescending and insulting phrasing with which you've treated everyone who happens to appreciate it.

Who is being bloody ignorant here, moderator Endus?

Another fallacy. I am not insulting anyone.

It's always nice when someone directly contradicts themselves like that, in the same post.

[lolalola]

You're trying to bully people in an online forum right now. Stop it, you big bad bully. Trying to stop PVPers from PVPing on PVP servers is kind of like the Nazis did to the Jews. You're basically doing the same thing.

[...]

If you believe I am bullying someone in an online forum please report such behaviour because it is likely against forum rules and the person performing such behaviour should get reprimanded. But wait, it is a moderator saying it, wouldn't he have banned me already if I was really bullying him as well as others? Yes, he would, but he can't frag me on it because I do nothing wrong barring arguing something he does not agree with. The statement he made is nothing more or less than an appeal to authority as well as a straw man to state such, and a red herring as well because it distracts from the actual issue. I expect more from those who run a place: actual arguments.

Why you bring the Nazi's and Jews into the subject, without explainig the actual compare, is beyond me.

Also, I have already explained various times that a feral one shotting a low level with moonfire can hardly considered combat. Yes, it is combat, for 1 sec, where the outcome was determined at the moment the feral decided to fly down and moonfire the low level.

[Endus]

You're joking right?!? You've spent god knows how many pages in this thread arrogantly and condescendingly telling anyone that disagrees with you that they are wrong or ignorant. How many people have you actively engaged in arguing with in this thread? Five? Six? And now you are pulling the stop the insults card.

Dude, there's a massive chasm of difference between debating with people, and insulting them.

Me saying "no, that's wrong" is not an insult. It's a correction. It's part of normal discussion and debate. I'm entitled to have and express my opinions.

Me saying "no, that's wrong, and you're an ignorant stupidhead" would be an insult. Because of the bit in italics. You're free to check back through the thread; I haven't insulted anyone. I've called an argument "bullshit", but that's just a strong way to say "wrong". That's as far as I've gone.

Disagreeing with someone is not insulting to them. Not even a little. It's part of normal discussion. It's what forums like this are for.

[lolalola]

Except that it oh so clearly is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-bullying_legislation

Recent development indeed. But wait, before this was implemented, bullying was alright even though it wasn't punishable or prosecuted? Of course not; bullying isn't accepted in society.

I haven't addressed it because it's irrelevant to the thread, or the argument you're making with regards to PvP servers.

You find it irrelevant; I find it very relevant in the context. It'd even stop a lot of the crying and QQ about CRZ.

Sure, they COULD make a new server type, but they haven't. So what-ifs about a possible alternative don't really mean anything.

So anywhere you discuss, anything which is a hypothesis, a child of someone's creative mind, an imagination is deemed irrelevant because it does not exist.

If you do not like my proposal, you can simply ignore it, and call it right there. You can put me on your ignore list. I can't put you on mine!

The existence of this theoretical server type wouldn't make PvP server rules change at all

Exactly! You would still be able to play on your preferred server. I'm not saying my proposal should change PvP realm type. I am saying it would co-exist.

and the rest of your argument is that the PvP rule set is objectively bad and harmful.

No, not the entire PvP rule set. My proposal is actually very much like a PvP server, with one minor change.

I'm ignoring this "third server" stuff because it is entirely irrelevant.

Why, is anything someone imagines or would like to see changed or implement irrelevant?

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ my argument

If you'd just been posting that you wished there were a third server type, that would have been fine. The issue is, and always has been, your unwarranted attack on the PvP ruleset and the condescending and insulting phrasing with which you've treated everyone who happens to appreciate it.

..but that is exactly what I am doing. I am posting my hypothesis and testing out my argument in various threads. Unfortunately with people like you who keep insisting "they don't like the idea" while it wouldn't affect them and all the red herrings going on, it becomes nearly impossible to discuss it.

It's always nice when someone directly contradicts themselves like that, in the same post.

How is that insulting? I'm not insulting you at all.