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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by frag971 View Post
    Can't you simply trade RBG matches? Queue with another team and do eachother's archievements?
    You could, i guess, but that would be considered win trading (i think) and that gets people banned/rating taken away etc

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-16 at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Somewowguy View Post
    It just went from "I should be able to cheat the system because im so awesome" to "I should be able to cheat the system because everyone else who has the achieves used premade add ons like me but just doesnt want to say they did"

    10/10. Your delusion and entitlement just made you my new favorite poster. Love it. More please. At this point I dont care if your trolling, or being a crybaby, keep it coming.
    You know, i was going to say something clever to out your apparent lack of reading comprehension but whats the point, you already made yourself look like an idiot.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-16 at 04:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by peachtree View Post
    OMG PEOPLE PLAYING WITH FRIENDS TO EARN A COMMON GOAL IS SO CHEAP, god what a bunch of casuals, lol

    i can't imagine the majority of these posts are even serious
    Its possible they are just posting to get a rise out of people who agree that grouping for achievements (thus premades) isnt a bad thing. Its all too obvious with some posters (like Somewowguy) that all they are trying to do is get their post count and post nonsense.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    It's not pointless, if you choose not to participate that's on you. You can continue or go somewhere else.

    If you are lucky, you are lucky and that's it. It doesn't diminish the difficulty of an achievement. Perfections with 5 require luck, using your example that luck comes in the form of 90% of the team being bots which almost never happens on that scale. That means that you are facing maybe 1 or 2 bots, perhaps 3 or 4 in a 15 man bg.
    No shit it requires luck. Everything in this game requires luck. You said it yourself: even if there are premades, these achieves still requires luck because you can't predict what the other team will do.

    At this point you're arguing against the very nature of the achievement. This is one of the few achievements in the game that anybody can do (ie: you don't need to be a hardcore raider), but is still prestigious anyway. Nothing about it needs to be changed.

  3. #103
    How did Blizzard screw pre-mades, what did I miss

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Marique77 View Post
    How did Blizzard screw pre-mades, what did I miss
    They reduced the number you can queue with for random battlegrounds to 5 people

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by sadie View Post
    Will it be harder? Yes
    Will it be impossible? Ofcourse not...

    I've seen most achievements achieved while solo-ing, (AV perfection, Res. Victory, AB Perfection), although I got most myself while premading with a 5 man group.

    Hard achievements should be hard.
    Unfair conditions are certainly not a justification for the perfection achievements or other ones of similar difficulty. Occasionally you will find yourself in a terrible group, that's just something everyone expects and understands. But achievements that can only be earned when the enemy team consists of bots, badly geared players, AFKer's etc are just broken. They're not based on individual skill or good group synergy. Most of them are easily obtainable if you consistently queue for BG's, some should not be there thought.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Senathor View Post
    Unfair conditions are certainly not a justification for the perfection achievements or other ones of similar difficulty. Occasionally you will find yourself in a terrible group, that's just something everyone expects and understands. But achievements that can only be earned when the enemy team consists of bots, badly geared players, AFKer's etc are just broken. They're not based on individual skill or good group synergy. Most of them are easily obtainable if you consistently queue for BG's, some should not be there thought.
    By that logic half of the BM achieves should be taken out. No way should you be able to do most of those if you're playing geared, competent players all the time. But that's the thing: you're not.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    None of the BM achieves are hard enough to require a premade and it's been like that the entire time. A couple are pure luck (6 minute AV, 1590-1600 AB) and the rest range from completely manageable while solo (do X in Y battleground) to grindy (win 100 games in each battleground). Granted, that grinding gets easier if you're constantly running with a premade group, but premades were taken out of the game specifically so you won't win every battleground.

    The only achieves you could possibly "need" a premade for are the perfection ones. As we covered earlier, a 5-man group is more than enough to get those achieves, especially with the high number of bots running around.

    Anyway, this debate is pretty pointless. Blizz won't bring back premades so you can either a) deal or b) quit.
    I disagree with the entirety of your post. Why? Just because. The 100 victories you'll get eventually simply by playing the game, you don't need a premade for that. Others though you do need one. The perfection ones as you said yourself are nigh impossible to get and you have to be very, extremly lucky to get those random. It happened to me, but I've played several hundred of those battlegrounds before it eventually happened and even then I often was in a semi premaide (2-5 people I PvP with).
    There are two important factors for this to happen. First your team has to be at least somewhat competent and actually try to win and play strategically. Second there can't be even a single human being that can't be considered retarded on the enemy team. One of these is very unlikely to happen. Both of those at the same time, hardly a chance.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    I disagree with the entirety of your post. Why? Just because. The 100 victories you'll get eventually simply by playing the game, you don't need a premade for that. Others though you do need one. The perfection ones as you said yourself are nigh impossible to get and you have to be very, extremly lucky to get those random. It happened to me, but I've played several hundred of those battlegrounds before it eventually happened and even then I often was in a semi premaide (2-5 people I PvP with).
    There are two important factors for this to happen. First your team has to be at least somewhat competent and actually try to win and play strategically. Second there can't be even a single human being that can't be considered retarded on the enemy team. One of these is very unlikely to happen. Both of those at the same time, hardly a chance.
    I didn't say the perfection achieves were impossible to get. I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    The only achieves you could possibly "need" a premade for are the perfection ones.
    "Need" is in quotes because I'm being sarcastic. Apparently that went over your head.

    To get perfection, rush the enemy side and cap their flags. I guarantee that--in a random BG--people will give up. As a competent player, if I'm in a random BG and I see that the other team has all 4 bases capped while we have 0 points, I give up right then and there. I'd rather lose in 2 minutes and re-queue than fight an uphill battle against an apparently organized opponent.

    Obviously, that can't happen every game. Sometimes you'll play an EotS where the other team has 10 people sitting at Mage Tower to start the game. You'll probably win because your opponents are retarded, but you won't get perfection. But guess what? These achieves take time for a reason.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    By that logic half of the BM achieves should be taken out. No way should you be able to do most of those if you're playing geared, competent players all the time. But that's the thing: you're not.
    This is complete rubbish. Most of the battleground achievements are personal and don't depend on how your team is doing at all. In fact, a lot of them get *harder* if your team is the better one. Obviously, you won't be getting 5-0 base Arathi Basin victories in a bad group, but you won't be getting flag defense achievements if your team isn't losing any flags. If you're running battlegrounds with the aim of finishing the battlemaster achievements, most of the time you it doesn't matter at all whether you're facing gear and competence or not.

    The problem is achievements like Not Even a Scratch which have been at times literally impossible unless the entire opposing team is made of bots or people who play like bots (eg they queued in it for the first time ever). At various points in previous expansions we've gotten so geared that just 1 person will easily nuke down the unoccupied demo on the beach before the other team can even leave their starting areas. All you need is one guy out of 15 on the opposing team who has been to SotA before and your achievement is impossible - and once the gear level is badly enough out of sync with demo health you don't even need that, even bots and newbies in their first bg will accidentally kill some. (I have this achievement multiple times, so this isn't some QQ, just recognition that it's extremely bad design. More bad design of the bg than the achievement, though.) If they ever make that bot program attack the demos properly, this will be literally impossible forever.

    Another example is how Perfect Storm is probably impossible to do now that battlegrounds tend to have half bots (at least during my play hours, usually worse than half bots). The problem is those bots are programmed to go cap a base at start (always Blood Elf at start for horde bots, MT for ally...) and with half the enemy team of bots plus whatever humans went that way the base gets capped fast. Would be no problem at all if you could queue with a full premade and you could afford to send a well prepared strike team to take out the bots and the humans hiding in them but you can't. Basically the only likely way to get this achievement now is to luck out on on a very late night game that starts extremely severely undermanned on the opposing side or to cheese it with a 5 man premade during the holiday event.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 03:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Obviously, that can't happen every game. Sometimes you'll play an EotS where the other team has 10 people sitting at Mage Tower to start the game.
    This is *every* game now. They're bots. They're programmed to go BET/MT at start.

    You'll probably win because your opponents are retarded, but you won't get perfection. But guess what? These achieves take time for a reason.
    Again, as far as I can tell Perfect Storm is impossible to get now unless you end up in a game with a severely screwed up queue and no opposing players. I don't really play at prime time so I can't tell if you can find games without so many bots now but on my play times you're guaranteed to start with over half the enemy team at MT/BET because that's what the popular bot is programmed to do.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    I didn't say the perfection achieves were impossible to get. I said:

    "Need" is in quotes because I'm being sarcastic. Apparently that went over your head.
    First of all, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. That being said I am fully aware of what you wrote and as I stated in the beginning I disagree with it. Apparently THAT went over your head.

    If the other team really, really doesn't want you to get that achievment you simply wont. Especially since the nerfed Paladin auras they will have capped a base and killed your perfection if even a decent number of them moves to one of the base in EOTS. The only way to get it is when the majority goes for the middle right away and thus they can't cap a base fast enough, which only ever happens during childrends week.

    As for Arathi. Got that one aswell. Chances to get it are very, very low and requires the enemy team to be utterly incompetend at about anything AND to leave their first base undefended because a single player can easily hold out for the few seconds you have to cap the base before it scores.

    To get perfection, rush the enemy side and cap their flags. I guarantee that--in a random BG--people will give up. As a competent player, if I'm in a random BG and I see that the other team has all 4 bases capped while we have 0 points, I give up right then and there. I'd rather lose in 2 minutes and re-queue than fight an uphill battle against an apparently organized opponent.
    The problem with this is the removal of Paladin auras. That way it takes longer for your team to actually reach the enemy's bases and you have to reach both of them in time overrunning the defenders. Most of the time there'll be enough people to cap a base before you even reach it and often some of them will actually ride into your direction to stop you from ever reaching said base or at least slowing you down.
    Getting perfection on both Arathi and Eots doesn't mean your team played very well, it means that you just had the luck to face one of the worst groups out there made up by a complete bunch of morons.
    Obviously, that can't happen every game. Sometimes you'll play an EotS where the other team has 10 people sitting at Mage Tower to start the game. You'll probably win because your opponents are retarded, but you won't get perfection. But guess what? These achieves take time for a reason.
    You can play indefinitely without getting lucky. I do have those achievment and it has nothing whatsoever to do with skill, knowledge or deserving this achievment but with getting lucky, extremly lucky if you're not running a premade. I've got mine random but I played several hundreds of each battleground across my characters.

    @Jaakeli, think about Isle of Conquest and the achievment where you have to controll all the bases and then win. You can be sure as hell that at least one person out of those 40 doesn't want you to get said achievment. I for example will try to recap and defend a base to the death just so the other team wont get it if there's even a remote chance for it to happen.
    Achievment is pretty much BS to begin with. You have to try to get it when the other team doesn't need the bases anymore, when they're in your base already and by then you often wont have enough time to cap thoses bases.

    I got lucky during the 85-90 leveling phase, when leveling my rogue alt. I, an feral and two other rogues worked together to cap those bases and the Alliance wiped thrice at our boss (party because the siege engine was killing large parts of their respawn while ours zerged down their boss).

  11. #111
    I finished it a few months into wrath que'ing by myself I'm pretty sure you can do it with 5.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    Personally i only have three achievements left to complete battlemaster, but im sure there are others out there who arent as lucky as i am to have been able to do them either with a 10/15 man from my server or from openraid.

    My question is, now what? 5 manning most battlemaster achievements is quite impossible. Perfections, resilient victory, and others need a coordinated effort to obtain and 5 people wont cut it. I know that there have been times when some of those were obtained by luck (and in many cases, RBGs too...which is how i got a few)

    I really disprove of blizzards decision, i'd love to finish Battlemaster and i probably will soon as my last three achievements are quite simple, just time consuming (To The Rescue! in AB, Persistent Defender, and Frenzied Defender in WSG)

    I think it wasnt a good idea to make the only premade RAID groups available for RBGs.

    This post is so dumb. You can complete EVERY single Battlemaster achievement without having to f'ing roflstomp pugs in "rated battlegrounds". So seriously stop crying like a baby and go show your skill against skill. Getting achievements against uncoordinated teams... That's for n00bs, are you a n00b?

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Rimrot View Post
    This post is so dumb. You can complete EVERY single Battlemaster achievement without having to f'ing roflstomp pugs in "rated battlegrounds". So seriously stop crying like a baby and go show your skill against skill. Getting achievements against uncoordinated teams... That's for n00bs, are you a n00b?
    lol its ok!

  14. #114
    I don't have time to refute both of those posts individually, but you two have two arguments:

    1) It's too hard with bots

    Your problem is with the bots, not these achievements. Make a thread about bots.

    2) There's too much luck involved

    Well, there's no way to make PvP achieves without luck involved.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth
    First of all, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. That being said I am fully aware of what you wrote and as I stated in the beginning I disagree with it. Apparently THAT went over your head.
    You were not fully aware of what I wrote, and if you were, then you purposefully misquoted me. I never said those achievements are impossible. I said the exact opposite.
    Last edited by Neazy; 2012-12-17 at 03:45 AM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    2) There's too much luck involved

    Well, there's no way to make PvP achieves without luck involved.
    Now you're just being completely retarded. Can you do anything at all in the world without luck involved? You can decide to go to the fridge and get a drink but you might always fall over and knock yourself unconscious. You might. There's still obviously less luck involved in succeeding at getting a drink than there is in winning the lottery.

    The whole question is a) how much luck does an achievement require and b) how much can you influence your odds with your own effort. As it is, there are a ton of achievements that take a lot of luck without giving the player ANY WAY AT ALL towards working for the achievement without a premade. Completing something like Ironman requires a good bit of luck (not just with the enemy but with no one in your team capping the flag) and a good bit of effort. I'd say pretty much everyone that does battlegrounds would agree that Ironman is a good, fun achievement that's reasonably exciting to work for, even though you need a fair bit of luck to get the circumstances right for it. Achievements that require a ton of luck while giving no way for the player to actively work towards them are the ones that no one likes (besides some people that lucked out and got them already). There *used* to be a way to work towards perfections (start a premade) but now that it's gone they should just nerf the hell out of those achievements.

    And for the record, I'm only missing victory/flag defense grind type achievements that I would automatically get just by grinding battlegrounds a lot but I doubt I'll ever actually get Battlemaster now with the blacklist feature (looking forward to never, ever doing another SotA again, even when all I need for the meta is a few more victories). I don't care that much for the title and I doubt I'll ever have it (unless they nerf the victory requirement so I can have SotA without doing more of them...).

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    The whole question is a) how much luck does an achievement require and b) how much can you influence your odds with your own effort. As it is, there are a ton of achievements that take a lot of luck without giving the player ANY WAY AT ALL towards working for the achievement without a premade. Completing something like Ironman requires a good bit of luck (not just with the enemy but with no one in your team capping the flag) and a good bit of effort. I'd say pretty much everyone that does battlegrounds would agree that Ironman is a good, fun achievement that's reasonably exciting to work for, even though you need a fair bit of luck to get the circumstances right for it. Achievements that require a ton of luck while giving no way for the player to actively work towards them are the ones that no one likes (besides some people that lucked out and got them already). There *used* to be a way to work towards perfections (start a premade) but now that it's gone they should just nerf the hell out of those achievements.
    As we discussed in our last posts, it's still more than possible to work for those achieves if you run with a few friends and use a little strategy. Here's how that conversation went:

    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy
    To get perfection, rush the enemy side and cap their flags. I guarantee that--in a random BG--people will give up. As a competent player, if I'm in a random BG and I see that the other team has all 4 bases capped while we have 0 points, I give up right then and there. I'd rather lose in 2 minutes and re-queue than fight an uphill battle against an apparently organized opponent.

    Obviously, that can't happen every game. Sometimes you'll play an EotS where the other team has 10 people sitting at Mage Tower to start the game. You'll probably win because your opponents are retarded, but you won't get perfection. But guess what? These achieves take time for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli
    This is *every* game now. They're bots. They're programmed to go BET/MT at start.
    Your problem is with bots. Take away the bots and five competent players will be more than enough to get EotS perfection in a couple tries.

  17. #117
    Pandaren Monk Feral Camel's Avatar
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    I've done all but 2 of these solo.

    Arathi Basin Perfection
    The Perfect Storm (Any advice for these 2 would be welcomed).

    I got Iron Man (not the dvd) during the last weekend.

    Battle master is a pretty tough achievement. Most of the time you need a great group and for the stars align in your favour!

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenbrew View Post
    I've done all but 2 of these solo.

    Arathi Basin Perfection
    The Perfect Storm (Any advice for these 2 would be welcomed).

    I got Iron Man (not the dvd) during the last weekend.

    Battle master is a pretty tough achievement. Most of the time you need a great group and for the stars align in your favour!
    Arathi Basin - Go Blacksmith and from there over the water to stables. Hope nobody is defending stables, hope that your team wins every single last fight and taps all the bases fairly fast and then pray they reach stables before you die.

    The Perfect storm - Immediatly rush one of the two bases, pray enough people will come with you and enough of your team will rush the other side. Hope that the other team doesn't have the same idea and about 90-95% of them are going for middle. If you managed to get all 4 bases, try to get the flag and score before these 14-15 people can overrun one of your bases.
    Only ever happens during children week and with account wide achievments even this becomes far more unlikely.

  19. #119
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    Personally i only have three achievements left to complete battlemaster, but im sure there are others out there who arent as lucky as i am to have been able to do them either with a 10/15 man from my server or from openraid.

    My question is, now what? 5 manning most battlemaster achievements is quite impossible. Perfections, resilient victory, and others need a coordinated effort to obtain and 5 people wont cut it. I know that there have been times when some of those were obtained by luck (and in many cases, RBGs too...which is how i got a few)

    I really disprove of blizzards decision, i'd love to finish Battlemaster and i probably will soon as my last three achievements are quite simple, just time consuming (To The Rescue! in AB, Persistent Defender, and Frenzied Defender in WSG)

    I think it wasnt a good idea to make the only premade RAID groups available for RBGs.
    If you're only able to get those achievements vs a completely unorganised 50% botting party, you don't deserve it anyway.., pre-mades vs those comps are in essence a 100% guaranteed win, I'd consider it along the same line as exploiting a glitch on a PvE boss.

  20. #120
    You can still queue a pre-made using the countdown method. The only difference between countdown and add-ons like preform AV enabler is the leader does all the queuing with the addon - with countdown everyone is responsible for queuing themselves at the correct time. There is no guarantee of everyone getting the same "pop" with an add-on. I rarely used the addons anyway, and if you have a full vent room all queuing, the chances are good that you can get at least 80% of the group into the same BG instance. Dont need no stinking addons.
    As for the achievs, yes there are some where you really do want a solid premade group. However, they should all be possible even in a random pug, I've picked up a few along the way just because I was trying for them from the time the gates opened.

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