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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    If by raiding 12-16 hours a day every day until they clear the raid is less than the OP I agree. Unless you meant overall from start to finish. The reason world first guilds are world first is skill AND the number of hours they put in.[COLOR="red"]
    Do you really think anybody is referring to the "progression period"? I don't think anybody is arguing that a 'typical' guild raids more than the top raiding guilds in the world during that period of time. Seems obvious that everybody is talking about raiding on a continuous period, from the start of a tier until the start of the next tier.



    You guys clear faster than the top 5 ranked guilds in the world.
    How long do they take? If I had a guess it would be 5-7 hours to clear 16/16H.

  2. #82
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Do you really think anybody is referring to the "progression period"? I don't think anybody is arguing that a 'typical' guild raids more than the top raiding guilds in the world during that period of time. Seems obvious that everybody is talking about raiding on a continuous period, from the start of a tier until the start of the next tier.





    How long do they take? If I had a guess it would be 5-7 hours to clear 16/16H.
    Im referring to raiding. Not progression or farm just the act of raiding. Even on alts. I would still wager that 16/16HM guilds raid just as much if not more than average top 1000 guilds. Usually after full clears on mains alt groups go for full clears or as much as they can clear. Run apps through with alts etc. You think most guilds clear 16/16 HM on tuesday or wednesday and then don't raid until next reset? I would have to disagree. I have been in top 100 guilds for US and we raidied as much if not more than the less skilled guilds on out server Just we werent wiping to the same boss for 2 days we were multiple clearing instances on our alts etc.
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  4. #84
    I would much rather be able to raid extremely heavy for about 3-4 weeks and then only have to raid 1 day out of the week for a few hours. I currently raid 3 days at 4 hours each and it does suck a bit being there for 4 hours each night but hey, I raid for being with friends and that's all that really matters in the end.

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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    Considering those top guilds probably spend the same amount of time overall as you, I fail to see where you're coming from

    Agreein on this one.

  6. #86
    The Patient
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    You care about how people enjoy their game?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    Im referring to raiding. Not progression or farm just the act of raiding. Even on alts. I would still wager that 16/16HM guilds raid just as much if not more than average top 1000 guilds. Usually after full clears on mains alt groups go for full clears or as much as they can clear. Run apps through with alts etc. You think most guilds clear 16/16 HM on tuesday or wednesday and then don't raid until next reset? I would have to disagree. I have been in top 100 guilds for US and we raidied as much if not more than the less skilled guilds on out server Just we werent wiping to the same boss for 2 days we were multiple clearing instances on our alts etc.
    Sure, but this isn't really the argument presented in the OP which essentially asks "why blow through the content so fast and then have nothing to do for months? Why not slow the pace?". Not every guild that has cleared content requires maintaining several alts, but most of these players choose to maintain alts and raid on alts because they choose to.

    I think you present a point that basically says the OP doesn't have a point/basis to argue because even the guilds that blow through content still find things to do and ways to continue to enjoy the content. Realistically there are many factors at play and its hard to just debate/argue only considering a few of those factors.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    Fair to say that a huge majority of guilds are not done with progression after 7 weeks. So if you ignore any additional time committed to the game beyond progression raiding, pretty reasonable to say that the very best guilds raid less overall than your average guild with an eye on heroic raiding.
    That's because the "huge majority" of guilds are filled with subpar players -- you're comparing two completely different things.

    If a progression guild maintainted their same roster but cut their weekly raids in half, they would end up clearing all the same content in a shorter amount of time. They'd go into progression fights with more gear from farm runs and Sha/Galleon kills, more valor upgrades, over-tuned bosses would be nerfed, strats would be ironed out and available everywhere, and they may even still be progressing when the % dmg/healing buffs rolled out.

    There's nothing to debate here. Progression raiding requires much more of a time commitment than casual raiding, period.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Just to put this into perspective my guild raids 7 hours a week so if progress people are also raiding 16 hours a week and have been since release then you've already spent more time total in this tier than I ever will assuming 5.2 will hit in 2 months as slated by the front page. I'm not sure how far below my guild is on time spent raiding every week but I doubt it's more than 10 hours a week on average, so I'm not quite getting this whole "they spend less time total than you do" argument.
    We raid 12 hours a week and are 9/16H. We're obviously not top 100 with those numbers, but we'll be finished well before the new patch comes out. If you assume 48 hours a month for 4 months, that's 192 hours, which isn't much compared to what my 7/16 normal mode friends do on a different realm. Not much time does not automatically translate into "inability to progress," and it hasn't meant that for awhile.

    For example, we got a late start on this xpac. 3 weeks ago, we were 4/16H. 2 weeks ago we finished H-MSV. Last week we practically annhilated bosses 2, 3, and 4 in H-HoF. This week I wouldn't be surprised if we killed H-Vor'lok, H-Ambershaper, and maybe H-Lei Shi. At our pace, our gear progression helps us take down bosses that just one month ago were near impossible - it's a fine balance to maintain design wise, and I think Blizzard hit it right on. The guilds with time and skill hit it in the first few weeks, the guilds with skill but maybe not time hit it in the following few months just from natural gearing up, and the guilds with time and less skill hit maybe 75% of it before the new tier comes out. The middle group (which I'm in) is probably most efficient in their killing because they benefit from the work the top guilds put in and have similar skill to execute it (or enough, at least, no heroic raider really things heroics are mind-bogglingly tough especially when Blizz rolls out nerfs like they do on near-impossible mechanics like H-Vizier and H-Sha p2). But the latter group is surely more inefficient than the first group.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    We raid 12 hours a week and are 9/16H. We're obviously not top 100 with those numbers, but we'll be finished well before the new patch comes out. If you assume 48 hours a month for 4 months, that's 192 hours, which isn't much compared to what my 7/16 normal mode friends do on a different realm. Not much time does not automatically translate into "inability to progress," and it hasn't meant that for awhile.

    For example, we got a late start on this xpac. 3 weeks ago, we were 4/16H. 2 weeks ago we finished H-MSV. Last week we practically annhilated bosses 2, 3, and 4 in H-HoF. This week I wouldn't be surprised if we killed H-Vor'lok, H-Ambershaper, and maybe H-Lei Shi. At our pace, our gear progression helps us take down bosses that just one month ago were near impossible - it's a fine balance to maintain design wise, and I think Blizzard hit it right on. The guilds with time and skill hit it in the first few weeks, the guilds with skill but maybe not time hit it in the following few months just from natural gearing up, and the guilds with time and less skill hit maybe 75% of it before the new tier comes out. The middle group (which I'm in) is probably most efficient in their killing because they benefit from the work the top guilds put in and have similar skill to execute it (or enough, at least, no heroic raider really things heroics are mind-bogglingly tough especially when Blizz rolls out nerfs like they do on near-impossible mechanics like H-Vizier and H-Sha p2). But the latter group is surely more inefficient than the first group.
    Just a friendly warning, bosses 2, 3 and 4 in H-HoF are absolute pushover and H-Zor'lok even in his current heavily nerfed version will take you much more time than those other 3 combined. So will Ambershaper. Lei Shi is tad easier than those 2.
    Don't expect to kill those 3 bosses this week. Lei Shi is more than doable, if you want fast kill. Rest of HoF will take you a while more.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zethras View Post
    The people who power through all the raids will raid for the rest of the time, getting every single piece of gear they can, before power through the next tier.

    Rinse and repeat. They get their jollies from doing it "first".
    I think they meant that it takes 2 month to make a patch, and it takes 4 months to make a patch with a raid in it. Since PTR isn't open yet i won't even bet my gold on that it will be done at 25 january
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Doom Panda View Post
    Frontloading content is a lost artform for the average WoW raiding guild, but most progression guilds still actively use that method. They really DO spend less time raiding a content tier than most.
    I don't know about that. I'm in a guild that raids 8-12 hours a week (2-3 nights) and we will likely be 11/16H Sunday, our last day of the week. We clear all farm content in about 2-3 hours the first night, then set to progressing for the rest of that night and the other day or two the rest of the week. I suspect when we are 16/16H we will clear the entire tier in about 3-4 hours (one night) which is the same as top guilds will be doing. We even bring alts for most of the more trivial heroics and make good time. Add up our time spent doing 8-12 hours a week for probably 8-12 weeks longer than world first guilds who raided 60+ hours a week for at least 6 weeks (each new raid instance opening, practicing heroic strats in normal, then heroic progression the week after, and any time after for bosses not killed) and end up with the same 1 night clear... we come out on top time-wise.
    Last edited by Maxvla; 2012-12-14 at 08:06 PM.

  13. #93
    @OP: All I will really say is that you're having fun doing it your way, I'm having fun doing it my way, what's the big deal either way?

  14. #94
    i like to do more in the game than raid so front loading the raid content and finishing it up ASAP makes the most sense for me. play how you want.... i'll be "waiting" for the next raid tier, but i wont be bored.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    I think what they meant, and I very well could be wrong is that we have something like this: (and dates aren't exact, just there to illustrate)

    September 25 - MoP Release

    November 25 - Small Content Patch

    January 25 - New Raid Content

    March 25 - Small Content Patch

    May 25 - New Raid Content

    and etc. If it's something like that we'll get something roughly every two months. Which if that is indeed what they hope and follow through with it I don't see how someone could run out of stuff to do unless, as you said they burn through it super quick. Some people do enjoy doing that stuff though, but ultimately only those who want to run out of stuff can and will. Those who don't can find stuff to do.
    january is WAY too early for a new raid tier
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  16. #96
    I really prefer to raid hardcore and put more time into it to get it done, and be able to focus more on college and family by playing only once a week for gear afterwards.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos View Post
    Okay, there's that feeling of competition with raiding in WoW. Being the first to clear the content might be nice but is it really worth sacrifing so much time? SO. MUCH. TIME?
    What do you think?
    I'll never understand this line of 'reasoning'... Common thought, sure, but is spending time doing something you enjoy a 'sacrifice'?

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  18. #98
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    Some guilds excel faster than others, whom are use to raiding and have set deadlines. They fix their problems then and there - not everyone does that.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    In terms of pure raiding, yes, but you know just as much as me that you spend that time in WoW elsewhere, to farm mats, to do alts raids, to prepare for te next content, or on beta/PTR, whatever.

    Also, let's not kid ourselves. Aside from a few select individuals, most people are nerds to a much larger degree(nothing wrong with that), and just because we cleared content doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to bang my 3 BF/GFs, it just means I'm going to play more dota and watch more anime, lol.
    I'll play more dota when Icefraud fixes Drow/Centaur/Sven etc. I've been in a guild that clears fast and another that spends the majority of the tier progressing and I have to say that you truly do raid less when you can get to a 1 day raid week earlier on. Then again a lot of my guild mates like to drink and do social shit so any opportunity we get for a night off we'll take it.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightelfsb View Post
    OP, I can ensure you that hard-core top 100 raiders, plays less than you. Atleast they raid less.

    Now, some or most off thoes might also play alot outside of raids, but thats there choice/they haft to grind X thing to stay competitive.
    Very true, up to clearing it all is lots of time after that its 2-3 hours a week just to clear i all
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