Question about Demonology PVE dps

[Mcyborg]

Hi I recently just switched to demonology in 5.1 and since the beginning of Pandaria I've been using Icy Veins but today I wanted to check some other sites out to see what the other guides say. They are pretty much all the same except this one thing and I'm not sure what to do. On Icy Veins it says not to use soulfire during meta but on maxdps/noxxic it says to use it during the meta. And I'm starting to think I should be using soulfire in meta since they nerfed touch of chaos dmg or at least I think they did, thats why they buffed doom right? Anyways what do you guys think soulfire in meta or no soulfire. And one more question should I use service or supremacy? I heard the difference between the two in dps is very very very small, would just like some confirmation. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question if you do end up responding.

[David Cavalheiro]

Hi I recently just switched to demonology in 5.1 and since the beginning of Pandaria I've been using Icy Veins but today I wanted to check some other sites out to see what the other guides say. They are pretty much all the same except this one thing and I'm not sure what to do. On Icy Veins it says not to use soulfire during meta but on maxdps/noxxic it says to use it during the meta. And I'm starting to think I should be using soulfire in meta since they nerfed touch of chaos dmg or at least I think they did, thats why they buffed doom right? Anyways what do you guys think soulfire in meta or no soulfire. And one more question should I use service or supremacy? I heard the difference between the two in dps is very very very small, would just like some confirmation. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question if you do end up responding.

They didn't nerf Touch of Chaos, but auto-attack. About Soulfire and Grimoires.

Don't use Soulfire on metamorphosis save it when you're on caster form. Switch for Soulfire when boss reachs <25% hp.So when you you go into demonform at <25%hp use Soulfire aswell.

>25% boss hp- Shadow Bolt in caster form, Touch of Chaos in Demon form. Soulfire with Molten Core.

<25%% boss hp- Soulfire in both forms, leave Shadow Bolt and Touch of Chaos completly.

[Deleted]

I'm no expert myself, but I believe that you only want to use Soul Fire in Meta during the Decimation stage (<20%? <25%?). Probably has to do with Meta uptime, MC procs are more valuable to recharge your Fury than the Soulfire is inherently.

Also, personal issue, but I've found Icy-Veins to be more reliant than Noxxic. Sometimes it feels Noxxic is just "take DPS form, cross out spells not applicable to you", Veins goes in depth on the subject (and probably has an answer to this too).

And they buffed Doom because they removed the Auto-Attack (the shadowbolt like spell that automatically travelled to the target), due to Wand issues, not because of ToC (I believe).

Service and Supremecy: I've been told that Service is only leading by a small margin due to Felguard + Felguard damage. If you can't get Service out on cooldown every time, Supremecy is presumably the best.

EDIT: What is this?! A ninja?! Know sir, that you have made a very powerful enemy that shall track you to the ends of the Earth in search of my VENGEN--- Ooooh, that squirrel has a fluffy tail!

[Jacus]

From what I remember they didn't nerf touch of chaos, they just removed the auto attack that was active during meta.

Use soulfire in caster form if target is above 25% hp. If the target is below 25% only use soulfire (both in demo and caster form).

[Qly]

I think (and someone correct me if i'm wrong) that the soulfire during meta vs no soul fire during meta debate exists because there are too many variables:

SF always crits, its damage is affected by crit% and its cast time is affected by haste (and of course molten core), costs 80 fury during meta, generates 30 fury outside of meta
ToC (hasn't been nerfed, that was chaos wave) crits depending on crit%, costs 40 fury refreshes corruption, only uses a gcd

So because of these variables I think it's pretty much accepted that you don't "usually" use SF during meta because it drains fury too fast and although the damage per execution time is higher it leaves you without an asset to rebuild your fury. now, why "usually"??? because you still use it in 2 cases: 1-under 25% because you get a free molten core for every SF you cast so fury regeneration is not an issue and 2-is you have a burn phase because damage per execution time is higher and that's exactly what you need during burn phases

Now fr the service vs supremacy debate they are both very close to each other, service provides extra burst which you might need for some fights

[Viggers]

without 4-piece, service is likely higher because service and DS line up, but with 4-piece service and supremacy will be much closer. also, supremacy starts to get better every time you have to delay service. service is, however, more bursty

[Terridon]

As far as i recall, icy-veins also explain their standpoint of not using soul fire during meta in their guide? From what i remember they overall said the diffrence in the numbers was very minor, and not entirely certain, but it looks like it's better not to do it during meta(before execute).
I might be wrong. It's a month ago i read it.

[Deleted]

The point is:
in caster form u use your spel to gain in the fastest way demonic fury: so is better to use Soulfire with decimation.
in Demonic form: u don't have to waste your DF, and try to balance DPS/DF. So for normal rotation use only ToC, if u need burst or sub 25% use Soulfire.

[Deleted]

There are a certain number of situations which do merit casting soulfire in meta form outside of the execute range.

On a straight up single target prolonged fight saving MC stacks for use in caster form is better because it provides more fury generation -> more meta uptime.

On some fights however it is better to just burn MC stacks at the right time in meta form. For instance Garajal - coming out of the spirit realm with full fury from hellfire and a bunch of MC stacks scales the damage you can do with the spirit realm buff even further. By the time it is your turn to return to the spirit realm you wouldn't have been able to use all your stacks up in caster form.

On Wind lord HC the burst phase is important. Also due to the fact that you are AOEing hugely beforehand you can save up stacks and just use it for the burst.

I tend to use MC stacks during meta for important burst phases or when I know that I don't need to burst in meta form for a while afterwards - and during execute phases.

[hellhamster]

The general rule of thumb is MC Soulfire in Meta with procs/cds is better dps per fury than Touch of Chaos. Also depends on the fight, if you can shadowflame in aoe or generally gain massive amounts of fury, use it as a fury dump more than Touch of Chaos. Try to optimize your meta uptime during Dark Soul and other cds/procs so you don't run out of fury, so in most cases you will be using Touch of Chaos.