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  1. #1

    PVE: Severe lack of burst for Assassination

    Not complaining about rogue PVE dps. Our sustained DPS, for assassination at least, is good.

    But when compared to almost every other class in my raid group (BM hunter, lock, fire mage, enh sham, spriest / fury war), I find myself to be either middle or bottom of the pack at the beginning of almost every boss encounter.

    The spec probably has one of the most stable damage output in game right now. It's nice that we're competitive on the meters; being a pure damage class with no raid CDs, the only thing we have is throughput. However it makes the spec rather mundane and passive.

    Want to know what the forum thinks.

  2. #2
    If DPS is good i dont consider it to be an issue in the least. it is depressing to see my guildies over 200-250k DPS when lust fades in the begining while im around 130, but in the end of the fight ill very often be ahead of them. On a fight where you need "on call" burst DPS, sub will take the cake, combat's burst isnt shabby in the least either. I personally prefer specs to have their diffrences, things they are good at and things they are poor at.
    Last edited by eijin; 2012-12-01 at 10:13 PM.

  3. #3
    With some luck you get many Dispatch proccs at the beginning, that with Shadowblades and clipping envenom at start can help the burst sometimes i see. But it doesnt really matter since you loose by clipping and wasting CP so the damage will be just the same as if you didnt clip etc after like 40 sec.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    Thats kiDPS is good i dont consider it to be an issue in the least. it is depressing to see my guildies over 200-250k DPS when lust fades in the begining while im around 130, but in the end of the fight ill very often be ahead of them. On a fight where you need "on call" burst DPS, sub will take the cake, combat's burst isnt shabby in the least either. I personally prefer specs to have their diffrences, things they are good at and things they are poor at.
    Honestly, if you need "on call" burst, you should probably be combat. Sub is so much lower overall, dance doesn't really make up for it. Ar+SB is also really solid burst even at a lower insight. If you are using double 2.6, KS is also quite solid.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Honestly, if you need "on call" burst, you should probably be combat. Sub is so much lower overall, dance doesn't really make up for it. Ar+SB is also really solid burst even at a lower insight. If you are using double 2.6, KS is also quite solid.
    yeah, sub is heavily losing its place. AR+SB is hard to beat. but either way, mut definitely isnt the burst spec.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Honestly, if you need "on call" burst, you should probably be combat. Sub is so much lower overall, dance doesn't really make up for it. Ar+SB is also really solid burst even at a lower insight. If you are using double 2.6, KS is also quite solid.
    Double 2.6 KS is probably the most damage any class can deliver in these few seconds, without any gimmicks like pvp berserk etc.

  7. #7
    Go play a monk (lol) they have almost no burst at all...
    I feels rogues don't need as much burst as other classes because we sustain pretty high numbers without it (burst for me is normally 100k+ and sustain is around 80k).
    Only thing that matters is the ending of a fight and who did more damage and didn't mess up mechanic wise.
    200k burst ret pally still does less damage in the end than my mute rogue.

  8. #8
    Dual 2.6 + Killing Spree + Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades macro afterwards.
    Probably one of the biggest burst a single class can do more than once in a single fight.

    Assassination still has a strong opener (Vendetta + SB + Troll Racial is nice), but it's not the burst you're looking for.

    In general, there's not many fight this tier that need high burst potential. I can only think of two cases off the top of my head:
    1. If you're soloing an Elegon pillar.
    2. Spirit Kings heroic.

    And even with Spirit Kings heroic, Mut's sustained burst potential w/ Vendetta comes out stronger than Combat's quick burst because Dispatch is OBNOXIOUS right now.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    If DPS is good i dont consider it to be an issue in the least. it is depressing to see my guildies over 200-250k DPS when lust fades in the begining while im around 130, but in the end of the fight ill very often be ahead of them. On a fight where you need "on call" burst DPS, sub will take the cake, combat's burst isnt shabby in the least either. I personally prefer specs to have their diffrences, things they are good at and things they are poor at.
    Seeing myself being at the bottom of the charts (with almost same ilvl with all other dps) and then watch myself sustain to #1/2 is a bit depressing tbh. This is for assassination.

    I'm only combat for 3 / 16 of the fights. Stone Guard, Garalon, Ambershaper. Granted my MH is a RF fist with windsong, my burst is considerably better than assassination (2 x upgraded N Spiritsever). Is anyone else baffled by the burst difference given the weapon damage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrih View Post
    With some luck you get many Dispatch proccs at the beginning, that with Shadowblades and clipping envenom at start can help the burst sometimes i see. But it doesnt really matter since you loose by clipping and wasting CP so the damage will be just the same as if you didnt clip etc after like 40 sec.
    No matter how hard I try, even with 5cps already on the boss before pull, I can't outburst 80% of my raids damagedealers. The only time I seem to be able to keep up is 1. Elegon or 2. Lust at start

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Honestly, if you need "on call" burst, you should probably be combat. Sub is so much lower overall, dance doesn't really make up for it. Ar+SB is also really solid burst even at a lower insight. If you are using double 2.6, KS is also quite solid.
    Combat is just a bit "meh" for me this tier. Energy regen is abysmal and there just seems to be alot of downtime in between AR / KS, almost similar to Assassination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Dual 2.6 + Killing Spree + Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades macro afterwards.
    Probably one of the biggest burst a single class can do more than once in a single fight.

    Assassination still has a strong opener (Vendetta + SB + Troll Racial is nice), but it's not the burst you're looking for.

    In general, there's not many fight this tier that need high burst potential. I can only think of two cases off the top of my head:
    1. If you're soloing an Elegon pillar.
    2. Spirit Kings heroic.

    And even with Spirit Kings heroic, Mut's sustained burst potential w/ Vendetta comes out stronger than Combat's quick burst because Dispatch is OBNOXIOUS right now.
    Its not that there are boss mechanics that need on call burst at the beginning, its more like rogues are really imbalanced in the burst department when compared to almost every other dps class (mage, locks, hunters).

  10. #10
    This was one of the things I absolutely loved about Assassination. Your damage is good all the time, and it gets slightly better at the end of the fight. Currently I'm on the other end of the spectrum as a Beast Mastery Hunter and it's really, really not fun having to deal with burst damage classes. All my damage comes from the start of the fight, after that it drops below everyone else. It's very frustrating having something happen in the middle of your burst period and watching your DPS drop because of that.

    As for fights that require burst damage, there are two other specs you can play. People have been complaining about spec homogenization for a while. Last thing I want to see is a level 90 talent choice between Vendetta, Shadow Dance and Adrenaline Rush with all specs being playable with all weapons.
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  11. #11
    Having 4p really helps on the pull. 24 sec blades is almost a full vendetta. Esp fights where lust is on the pull like Gara'Jal, the mut rogue in our 25 man does quite competitive numbers.

  12. #12
    The thing is, even with 100% envenom uptime, 100% rupture uptime, 100% SnD uptime, anything else is marginal at best. you overwrite your envenoms (which envenom's damage itself isnt that great, the buff is the main part of the damage), some people CT (i dont see this being much better ). I dont really see the CP from blades being that huge. the additional armor pen on the auto attacks is nice, but still not huge. Compaired to some of my guildies doing over twice what their end of fight DPS is in the first 30s

  13. #13
    Maybe I've missed something, but is this a problem? There's no tendon phase in this tier, so beyond getting a kick out of 'big crits' it seems pretty irrelevant whether we can burst or not.

    Granted I haven't done all encounters yet, so maybe I'm wrong.

  14. #14
    I bursted over 500k dps on H garalon (as combat). it made me happy.

  15. #15
    I disagree with OP.

    You are playing mutilate because it has amazing sustained. You could play other specs that have less sustained, but more burst. Some classes don't even have this option!

    If we were living in a world where ret burst 250k and then stayed above you the whole fight, I'd be like, yea, problem. But as it is, I think you want assassination to be good at too many things.

  16. #16
    Some classes have a lot of burst. However, that is because they use a number of 3 minute cooldowns with their prepot and trinket procs at the start of a fight.

    Assassination damage is more sustained and, when cooldowns are off, you will do more damage. Also, you damage will be very high sub-35% with Vendetta, pot and SB up, especially if you can use it all with Heroism after you pool energy.

    I am often 12th at the start but end up 2nd or 3rd.

  17. #17
    I'm not disliking the spec. Its just seeing myself sitting at around 110k with lust and CDs rolling with 488 ilvl (2pc) is a bit depressing while almost every other class is pulling marginally more.

    Sustained dps is great and yes there has yet to be a fight where burst dps is severely required, but isn't class/spec balance about tweaking sustained vs burst dps?

    [edit] on a side note, what is the forum doing with Vend & SB synergy? Are you waiting to use Vend when SB is up only? Or do you use Vend & SB on cd?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekked View Post
    Energy regen is abysmal and there just seems to be alot of downtime in between AR / KS, almost similar to Assassination.
    Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on this seeing as I'm energy capping quite frequently as Combat during AR and KS, something which I don't remember happening until late t12 last expansion(although, in fairness, I was tanking throughout most of t12, so it might've been a bit earlier in t12).

    If you think energy regen is shit it's probably because you're playing Combat with Assassination gems+reforges, which is gonna be 5-7k haste difference for most people.

  19. #19
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    Not trying to criticize or put anyone's comments down, but honestly does assassination need all that burst when we have the other classes to do it for us??? Our niche is sustained damage and lol wtfpwn execute phase damage. If we got the burst many of you are crying out for, we would be nerfed into the ground because of all the other classes throwing a bitch fest!!!

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire Vinho's Avatar
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    I find my beginning burst is completely dependent on early Dispatch procs.

    I'm either energy starved at the start of the fight only pulling ~120k, or have some lucky procs and start in around ~150k+ and then level out.

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