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  1. #201
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    I have no idea how you'd gain anything of value regarding GA from a bot game. The only time I die in there is when I'm being a complete and utter moron and manage to get myself caught by 4 of them in chain CC under their turret.

    Additionally, a bot game tends to be done well before you even reach a considerable about of gold. Often times I'm lucky if I get beyond a Bloodthirster or so.

    If that is what you base your decisions on... *shrug* Oh well, I'm done here.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    I have no idea how you'd gain anything of value regarding GA from a bot game. The only time I die in there is when I'm being a complete and utter moron and manage to get myself caught by 4 of them in chain CC under their turret.

    Additionally, a bot game tends to be done well before you even reach a considerable about of gold. Often times I'm lucky if I get beyond a Bloodthirster or so.

    If that is what you base your decisions on... *shrug* Oh well, I'm done here.
    huh? Who said bot games? You're slightly mistaken :P again. No biggy either though.

    Bot games are useful for one thing, jump into a group of bots and see how long you last and how fast you get them down
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-24 at 06:21 PM.

  3. #203
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    huh? Who said bot games? You're slightly mistaken :P again. No biggy either though.

    Bot games are useful for one thing, jump into a group of bots and see how long you last and how fast you get them down
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    P.S. I just did another bot game, to see how an early GA would affect my game. Results weren't so bad. So I might pick it up first in a real match and then proceed to Warmogs. Phage remains my first. Or maybe I'll just Phage -> GA -> Giant's Belt and then get some offensive items.
    You did. Now stop being slightly mistaken and start acting like a rational human being. I realise that might be a lot to ask seeing how the majority of this planet's population is incapable of doing so, but when posting kindly assume I am not an idiot and do not like my time wasted, much like Badpaladin's signature urges you to do.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    You did. Now stop being slightly mistaken and start acting like a rational human being. I realise that might be a lot to ask seeing how the majority of this planet's population is incapable of doing so, but when posting kindly assume I am not an idiot and do not like my time wasted, much like Badpaladin's signature urges you to do.
    Yeah, you missed the part where I used that to taunt the Californian superstar guy a little

    You mixed up two things; I have no intention to fully test GA in a bot environment. Such statistics mean nothing. But it gives me an idea of what I'm going to buy next, what the rhythm is, helps me memorize gold requirements, gives me an idea of the damage I could potentially receive and basically just helps me to get down the basics of new champions. Oh and lately I use them to get my daily certain win. I don't have much time lately.

    I'm fully rational. You just can't keep up with reading, apparently, which in turn makes you assume things I never said, or makes you interpret them differently.

    I'll summarize;
    Got to lvl30; sudden increase of retards, equal to lvl 1-10, but back then I was one of them; testing champs or builds in regular games make me a liability; decided to (pre-)test items in bot environment more often.

    That's what I said. Never, even once, did I suggest I would be doing all my GA testing in a bot environment. You're mixing up the californian awesome guy suggestion that I had only been playing bot games (not true, I think I'm at 30 right now, compared to 300+ actual matches) and my comments about first time testing GA in a bot environment with "bot environment period". I guess?
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-24 at 07:14 PM.

  5. #205
    Immortal Bombkirby's Avatar
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    Guys don't gang up on one person. It's never fun for someone to quote like 5.different people and share 5 different arguments.

    To sum up GA... It's mostly built on hard hitting squishies , people who build glass cannon, like carries or an assassin like Talon. It gives them a good amount of bulk and let's them wreak havoc twice before going down. It also averts focus to people without GA. No one wants to blow their best spells on someone who will come back to life. If you build glass cannon on Vi and take advantage of your large ratios (like Riven usually does) I'd recommend it. If you get warmogs and mallet I doubt you'll need any more bulk. With a GA a Mog and a Mallet, you only have room for boots and 2 full damage items. And I don't imagine coming back to life will be much help if you're hitting like a wet blanket. Plus bulky people usually die last. If ur hp bar looks huge then you won't be to used. And a GA activating at the end of a team fight is mostly useless because the enemy will just surround you and kill you or if its 1v1 at the end your opponent will have time to run away as you rezz.
    Last edited by Bombkirby; 2012-12-24 at 07:39 PM.

  6. #206
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Yeah, you missed the part where I used that to taunt the Californian superstar guy a little

    You mixed up two things; I have no intention to fully test GA in a bot environment. Such statistics mean nothing. But it gives me an idea of what I'm going to buy next, what the rhythm is, helps me memorize gold requirements, gives me an idea of the damage I could potentially receive and basically just helps me to get down the basics of new champions. Oh and lately I use them to get my daily certain win. I don't have much time lately.

    I'm fully rational. You just can't keep up with reading, apparently, which in turn makes you assume things I never said, or makes you interpret them differently.

    I'll summarize;
    Got to lvl30; sudden increase of retards, equal to lvl 1-10, but back then I was one of them; testing champs or builds in regular games make me a liability; decided to (pre-)test items in bot environment more often.

    That's what I said. Never, even once, did I suggest I would be doing all my GA testing in a bot environment. You're mixing up the californian awesome guy suggestion that I had only been playing bot games (not true, I think I'm at 30 right now, compared to 300+ actual matches) and my comments about first time testing GA in a bot environment with "bot environment period". I guess?
    Read the exact quote I gave you. Now read my previous comment about your communication. You can try acting like you're the gods' gift to Shakespeare, but unfortunately (for you, that is), the burden of clarity lies on the person transmitting their message, not the receiver.

    You can keep editing messages all you want, but if you want actual feedback on whatever the heck you're coming up with next, I suggest you try and tone down the attitude and work on getting your message across the way you intend it, rather than acting like a dick about the way you think it should be interpreted.

    //edit: Hm, looking at the topic title, I dare say we drifted away a bit from its initial intent. Until you can get back on track (which is: not 'debating' -and I use the term loosely- the merits of Guardian Angel, as well as telling people they're wrong for reading what you type instead of what you mean), I'm done with the discussion here.
    Last edited by Duilliath; 2012-12-24 at 07:49 PM.

  7. #207
    @Duilliath

    I sent you a PM to try and clarify it. I hope you get it now.

    @ Bombkirby

    My last match ended in a win, 5/5/14. Team wasn't perfect, but we managed to get those towers, two dragons and Baron, which gave us the edge. I had to buy wards at some point (ok not entirely fair, I was jungling, so I should ward a bit), because they didn't, so I'm not complete, but I built the following things:

    - Frozen Mallet
    - The Black Cleaver
    - Ninja Tabi
    - Maw of Malmort

    And I was about to start building into GA, because we actually had pretty close fights.
    http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/35172588#history

    Not updated yet sadly.

    Replay;
    http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2637027/

    A few odd but good fights too. According to the tooltip, Vi's ult should make her immune to CC, but she's not immune to knockbacks. So when she ults, Tristana can actually prevent that. I got knocked straight out of ulting.

    And another, when our opponent Vi ulted one of my teammates, I ulted her ult. That was cool.

    Edit @ 2:06 midnight UTC+1;
    After reviewing my own replay.
    - I made many unnecessary withdrawals. I played a bit too careful in some occasions.
    - I made a few sloppy decisions. I could have lurked a bush a bit longer and gotten a kill or assist.
    - Some engages were silly
    - Need more awareness of current jungle mob presence. I walked into a Red, which I knew was gone if I had paid attention and stood still in that spot a few seconds too long. I should have directly gone for the Golems.
    - I Ulted a Lee Sin instead of Tristana. Had I ulted Tristana, my team mate would perhaps still have been alive.
    - In retrospect, their team had mostly AD, so I should have built more armor instead of Maw of Malmort.
    - My counter-Ult on Vi was less close than I recalled. I thought I countered her ult, but I was a split second too late. I did counter any follow-up though.

    All in all not one of my best matches ever. It's clear I need to get faster and smarter in making decisions.

    And Merry Christmas all
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-25 at 01:20 AM.

  8. #208
    Moderator Axethor's Avatar
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    Figured I'd bump this for people looking to jungle Vi, my experiences say your way, way better off taking her top lane. She can jungle, and man is it fun, but she needs too much item wise which the jungle keeps her from getting. You should be building one of the jungle items on her. If you aren't, please kindly take her top lane and duo because you are achieving the same thing. The jungle items provide dragon, baron, and buff control. Not building them puts your team at a disadvantage.

    Now why is she busy item wise? FM and BC I think are core, with the FM being more important than the BC. Both provide AD and health, perfect for Vi. FM's slow is more important than the ArmPen on BC though. They aren't exactly cheap items. By taking her in the jungle, you set back her item build by building a Spirit Stone or Wriggles.

    So, my top lane adventures are fun. Pushing top lane and I see Darius coming. Juke him 3 times in side bush and escape. When I'm almost to my second tower (first was down) His whole team comes out of my jungle. Lucky for me, my whole team was also their. I dive on Darius as my team arrives, we kill him and he kills me, then my team aces their's without another life lost. It was so perfect and hilarious. All set up by 3 jukes.

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  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Axethor View Post
    Figured I'd bump this for people looking to jungle Vi, my experiences say your way, way better off taking her top lane. She can jungle, and man is it fun, but she needs too much item wise which the jungle keeps her from getting. You should be building one of the jungle items on her. If you aren't, please kindly take her top lane and duo because you are achieving the same thing. The jungle items provide dragon, baron, and buff control. Not building them puts your team at a disadvantage.

    Now why is she busy item wise? FM and BC I think are core, with the FM being more important than the BC. Both provide AD and health, perfect for Vi. FM's slow is more important than the ArmPen on BC though. They aren't exactly cheap items. By taking her in the jungle, you set back her item build by building a Spirit Stone or Wriggles.

    So, my top lane adventures are fun. Pushing top lane and I see Darius coming. Juke him 3 times in side bush and escape. When I'm almost to my second tower (first was down) His whole team comes out of my jungle. Lucky for me, my whole team was also their. I dive on Darius as my team arrives, we kill him and he kills me, then my team aces their's without another life lost. It was so perfect and hilarious. All set up by 3 jukes.
    Hmm I see what you mean about the jungle item. And as you said, upgrading into a wriggles actually hurts her early game. How about sticking to the machete, wait till ~lvl 14 before upgrading it? By then you should have FM and BC. You should mostly be tanky enough now. Dragon and blue/red buff kills hardly are an issue. Her maxed W is basically a proc of damage at a 33% chance. For baron it could be crucial, due to the health pool you need to break apart.

    I don't like laning her as much as I like her as a jungler though. She's basically just as fast as Nunu, but without the Q (in terms of speed). Although I miss having a proper summoner spell when I jungle
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-26 at 08:00 PM.

  10. #210
    Moderator Axethor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Hmm I see what you mean about the jungle item. And as you said, upgrading into a wriggles actually hurts her early game. How about sticking to the machete, wait till ~lvl 14 before upgrading it? By then you should have FM and BC. You should mostly be tanky enough now. Dragon and blue/red buff kills hardly are an issue. Her maxed W is basically a proc of damage at a 33% chance. For baron it could be crucial, due to the health pool you need to break apart.

    I don't like laning her as much as I like her as a jungler though. She's basically just as fast as Nunu, but without the Q (in terms of speed). Although I miss having a proper summoner spell when I jungle
    It's not to make them easier to kill, it's making it faster. Any extra monster damage, especially from Wriggles, helps you take objectives faster. This makes them much easier to secure for your team. For blue buff, it's less time and mana the mid laner has to spend taking it (when you help). Same for Red and giving it to top or bot lane. Vi can solo dragon with Wriggles around 7 or 8, safely at 9. Baron is where they start to shine, really speeding up the kill. Also, the Golem Spirit stone lets you build boots other than Merc treads (not that it matters for Vi, who would take the AD version).

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  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    Hmm I see what you mean about the jungle item. And as you said, upgrading into a wriggles actually hurts her early game. How about sticking to the machete, wait till ~lvl 14 before upgrading it? By then you should have FM and BC. You should mostly be tanky enough now. Dragon and blue/red buff kills hardly are an issue. Her maxed W is basically a proc of damage at a 33% chance. For baron it could be crucial, due to the health pool you need to break apart.
    Perhaps at your experience level, Dragon and Blue/Red kills are "hardly an issue".

    Dragon is contested every time it respawns even at mid-level play. The higher you get, the more aware people are of all of the red/blue timers and those get contested as well. Drake/Buffs aside, it allows you to counter-jungle a bit better too if/when the opportunity presents itself.

    It's 1300 gold more for Wriggle's...and all you need is 400 after the start of the game for Madred's. Kind of a no-brainer for jungle Vi.

    Wriggle's, Brutalizer, Phage, boots 1 = 4752 gold.

    Machete, boots 1, Black Cleaver, Phage = 5115 gold.

    Alright, I'll admit its closer in gold than I initially guestimated. I just don't think its worth sacrificing Wriggle's.

    edit: Now that I think of it...Spirit Stone might be better if she has mana issues...plus Spirit of the Elder Lizard is pretty dope.
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2012-12-26 at 08:26 PM.

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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Perhaps at your experience level, Dragon and Blue/Red kills are "hardly an issue".

    Dragon is contested every time it respawns even at mid-level play. The higher you get, the more aware people are of all of the red/blue timers and those get contested as well. Drake/Buffs aside, it allows you to counter-jungle a bit better too if/when the opportunity presents itself.

    It's 1300 gold more for Wriggle's...and all you need is 400 after the start of the game for Madred's. Kind of a no-brainer for jungle Vi.

    Wriggle's, Brutalizer, Phage, boots 1 = 4752 gold.

    Machete, boots 1, Black Cleaver, Phage = 5115 gold.

    Alright, I'll admit its closer in gold than I initially guestimated. I just don't think its worth sacrificing Wriggle's.

    edit: Now that I think of it...Spirit Stone might be better if she has mana issues...plus Spirit of the Elder Lizard is pretty dope.
    Sigh, while I agree with your summation, does it have to be accompanied with "at your experience level" at every turn? I'm quite aware of my experience level. If you want, you can just explain me by ELO level. That way we don't have to remind me of the fact that all of you are clearly superior.

    She has 0 mana issues. Unless you end up not getting any blue at all. (she only really needs one, ever. I start @ red for a reason).

    Quote Originally Posted by Axethor View Post
    It's not to make them easier to kill, it's making it faster. Any extra monster damage, especially from Wriggles, helps you take objectives faster. This makes them much easier to secure for your team. For blue buff, it's less time and mana the mid laner has to spend taking it (when you help). Same for Red and giving it to top or bot lane. Vi can solo dragon with Wriggles around 7 or 8, safely at 9. Baron is where they start to shine, really speeding up the kill. Also, the Golem Spirit stone lets you build boots other than Merc treads (not that it matters for Vi, who would take the AD version).
    Hmm.. Starting to feel sorry for the fact that specific jungle items were introduced. The way you put it, it does indeed matter and it might affect her early game quite a bit. Madred as a no-brainer then. I think I can solo Dragon at 8 though :P Without. Although it's painful. I usually wait till 10/11. No more, I guess.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-26 at 08:55 PM.

  13. #213
    Don't forget the early lifesteal and armor.

    Also, I'm not trying to remind you that you're a new player. You explicitly said "dragon kills are hardly an issue," which is purely incorrect...and likely a result in lack of experience in contested dragons at level 7-8 ish (or earlier, but that is more rare).

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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Don't forget the early lifesteal and armor.

    Also, I'm not trying to remind you that you're a new player. You explicitly said "dragon kills are hardly an issue," which is purely incorrect...and likely a result in lack of experience in contested dragons at level 7-8 ish (or earlier, but that is more rare).
    That's true. I would have been more understanding if you had said it like this in the first place. My current level is completely outside of ELO. Between 20-29 I had really good teams, so I figured I could just go straight to ranked. I came back from that when I played and lost about ~10 matches in a row the first week of turning 30 (unranked). So, no, I don't have experience with contested Dragons @ 8

    But that's why I'm asking, basically. I think it's fine that someone tells me I'm missing the point. I just want them to follow it up with something I can relate to.

    Now I'm mentioning it. Playing as if I'm playing at your level, wouldn't that hurt in a game where no one does? Wouldn't that set you back oO? Besides that early Dragon :P
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-26 at 10:15 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Vespian View Post
    That's true. I would have been more understanding if you had said it like this in the first place. My current level is completely outside of ELO. Between 20-29 I had really good teams, so I figured I could just go straight to ranked. I came back from that when I played and lost about ~10 matches in a row the first week of turning 30 (unranked). So, no, I don't have experience with contested Dragons @ 8

    But that's why I'm asking, basically. I think it's fine that someone tells me I'm missing the point. I just want them to follow it up with something I can relate to.

    Now I'm mentioning it. Playing as if I'm playing at your level, wouldn't that hurt in a game where no one does? Wouldn't that set you back oO? Besides that early Dragon :P
    Didnt he do that right after commenting on your experience?

    Dragon is contested every time it respawns even at mid-level play. The higher you get, the more aware people are of all of the red/blue timers and those get contested as well. Drake/Buffs aside, it allows you to counter-jungle a bit better too if/when the opportunity presents itself.

    Also, no, it wouldn't hurt to use the knowledge that others in your team don't seem to have. If you make it clear what your intentions are and make sure you're a credible source, they will follow you.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    Didnt he do that right after commenting on your experience?
    Oh yeah, was more a generic response. Maybe just a mindfart. Not directed.

  17. #217
    I am Murloc! Grading's Avatar
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    Personally, it seems that Vi in the jungle fares better than top, but maybe I just haven't seen any good Vi tops yet.
    I've only played her in the jungle so far, and I've had pretty good success.

    Also, I figured that Vi were one of those "AD casters" so you'd take the Lizard Spirit Stone on her. But I guess her W makes Wriggles a lot better.
    I just prefer Spirit Stones for the added sustain.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Grading View Post
    Personally, it seems that Vi in the jungle fares better than top, but maybe I just haven't seen any good Vi tops yet.
    I've only played her in the jungle so far, and I've had pretty good success.

    Also, I figured that Vi were one of those "AD casters" so you'd take the Lizard Spirit Stone on her. But I guess her W makes Wriggles a lot better.
    I just prefer Spirit Stones for the added sustain.
    Yeah, but doesn't this make the whole baron/dragon argument go away:? It's 25% additional damage, no? In that case I'd prefer going for Phage -> BC directly...

    edited 10 -> 25.

    Ok, 25 is a lot. How does it synergize, 25% over all damage? (I can read, but is it from base damage, or damage after crit etc)
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-26 at 10:59 PM.

  19. #219
    I am Murloc! Grading's Avatar
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    That 25% goes for all your damage, yes, which is great for junglers who focus on abilities.
    Auto-attackers like WW, Xin Zhao, etc. have more benefit from Wriggles since their higher attack speed gives them way more chances of proccing it, while they're not as reliant on abilities for damage.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Grading View Post
    That 25% goes for all your damage, yes, which is great for junglers who focus on abilities.
    Auto-attackers like WW, Xin Zhao, etc. have more benefit from Wriggles since their higher attack speed gives them way more chances of proccing it, while they're not as reliant on abilities for damage.
    So how would that work with the x% = y damage? I assume it grabs y, then add's 25%* it after it's been calculated. That could really add up..

    Since I'm thinking. W is technically an ability proc. But it's also a percentage damage, so both could work. Unless I'm missing something.
    Last edited by Vespian; 2012-12-26 at 11:08 PM.

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