Next Champion: Vi, The Piltover Enforcer

[Rampant Rabbit]

And now we're back at the core of the issue. We need to agree to disagree, because GA is bad on her in my humble but supported by facts opinion. Unless, once more, the entire team picks them up. So let's just do that. Agree to disagree.

Your facts don't support anything on GA being bad on Vi. Also, why wouldn't the entire team build a GA in late game? I wouldn't expect it any other way.

GA is no champion specific item. It's a fail-safe item that can and most probably will be game changing during late game.

[Vespian]

Your facts don't support anything on GA being bad on Vi. Also, why wouldn't the entire team build a GA in late game? I wouldn't expect it any other way.

GA is no champion specific item. It's a fail-safe item that can and most probably will be game changing during late game.

Ok See <-- agree to disagree.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Ok See <-- agree to disagree.

Alright then! Have it your way.

[Vespian]

But if GA is actually mandatory for all champs, it needs to be removed.

[Rampant Rabbit]

But if GA is actually mandatory for all champs, it needs to be removed.

Not mandatory, but situational. If it's a close game that reaches end game, you will simply not be able to allow yourself to die to be it a mistake, or getting focussed down in a team fight. It's an extension to your ability to control the outcome of the game.

A Warmog's will not allow you to do this. You will simply get focussed down and stay down. This is my point and I hope you'll come to realize that this is a big point in such games.

[Kurdiern]

That's simply false. And unfair. I've had a yellow ribbon since lvl 20. I've played Leona between 1-20 and play(ed) her very well. I only play bot games on new champions. Between 20 and 29 I've had many excellent team comps, great team mates, perfect cooperation. When I started playing at lvl 30, I've had the worst of the worst. Ended up constantly losing, due to people changing picks the last second, dual junglers, people instalocking a champion they sucked with. Afkers, leavers, rude people, skillless people. chasers, divers, people that didn't know where they were supposed to go. People that only spoke spanish.

I had a 50/50 win/loss rate before I turned 30. Now I'm at 143/159 matches.

I just decided to test my item builds in bot games more often, instead of real games, because when I test things I can't compensate for others.

Please don't be toxic. And yes, I am pretty pissed off with most of my losses. Last night was a reasonable match though. See replay. That is, if you really want to comment on me.

I look at your match history. I see 7/10 games are Bot Games. I look at your sig and see it says "Finally 30" hinting that you've only recently achieved 30.

I didn't ask for a sob story or a personal biography on how you're actually some amazing player held down constantly by the idiots that you get matched with like everyone else does. You've played a lot less than us and chances are you are, quite frankly, worse. That's just how experience and the game works. I'm not even trying to be Toxic. Take a step back, realize that yes you ARE NEW to this game still, and maybe think that a 2nd Warmogs on Vi is a fucking stupid idea and that yes, GA is a great item, even on her.

[Vespian]

I look at your match history. I see 7/10 games are Bot Games. I look at your sig and see it says "Finally 30" hinting that you've only recently achieved 30.

I didn't ask for a sob story or a personal biography on how you're actually some amazing player held down constantly by the idiots that you get matched with like everyone else does. You've played a lot less than us and chances are you are, quite frankly, worse. That's just how experience and the game works. I'm not even trying to be Toxic. Take a step back, realize that yes you ARE NEW to this game still, and maybe think that a 2nd Warmogs on Vi is a fucking stupid idea and that yes, GA is a great item, even on her.

I'm talking about the fact that you looked at my match history and used it as a guiding hand to be offensive. I don't care what you think about me personally. It's about the principal. It's not true and you use it to make my opinion worth less. I did just get 30. So what? I'm not a 60 year old with bad reflexes, I don't use lag as an excuse or call it skill when I win.

Ah but I remember now, from that other thread. You made such a big fuss about my opinion not counting /because; not 30/. You and your friends even claimed these forums didn't have the regular mmo-champion moderating. Yeah, that was classic when a mod popped in.

P.S. I just did another bot game, to see how an early GA would affect my game. Results weren't so bad. So I might pick it up first in a real match and then proceed to Warmogs. Phage remains my first. Or maybe I'll just Phage -> GA -> Giant's Belt and then get some offensive items.

[Duilliath]

Vespian: It's quite simple. Late game, res timers are 90 seconds. In those 90 seconds, an enemy team will destroy your entire nexus. If a game is that close in the end, the one determining factor may well be which side has more Guardian Angels. Its effect is -that- powerful.

If you reach an 6 item build on Vi, you can be pretty darn sure the enemy AD carry got 6 items as well or the game would've ended by now. Extra health will do bugger all to keep you alive in that situation.

The mere fact that you say "an early GA might not hurt and I may pick it up" means you are not even considering why exactly you buy those defensive items. There is no set item path. The sooner you realise that, the better you're off.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Best thing would be to finish a major item first (Black Cleaver, TF, BT), instead of building it after a Phage, and then get GA.

[Vespian]

Vespian: It's quite simple. Late game, res timers are 90 seconds. In those 90 seconds, an enemy team will destroy your entire nexus. If a game is that close in the end, the one determining factor may well be which side has more Guardian Angels. Its effect is -that- powerful.

If you reach an 6 item build on Vi, you can be pretty darn sure the enemy AD carry got 6 items as well or the game would've ended by now. Extra health will do bugger all to keep you alive in that situation.

The mere fact that you say "an early GA might not hurt and I may pick it up" means you are not even considering why exactly you buy those defensive items. There is no set item path. The sooner you realise that, the better you're off.

Wrong, I do know why I'm buying it. What I meant is, I need to learn how items affect my game. How well do I survive if I get forced to pick up x,y,z. I'm playing a role-playing game, basically. I'm learning myself what to expect if I follow a different order of things. You don't read guides without the disclaimer that every item build depends on all variables in the game either, why would I be that dumb? The fact that you even assume I am, is insulting.

I dislike GA. I absolutely understand it's power. I personally think it's a waste of resources. But I have to be wrong, because of the majority ruling. Which means I'll need to learn to play with it at all times. Which means I'll have to build it as early as 20 minutes, to learn to play with it.

I explained earlier that GA, in my opinion, only works when your team fights are close calls.

Best thing would be to finish a major item first (Black Cleaver, TF, BT), instead of building it after a Phage, and then get GA.

I would do something alike on Jayce, because he has the escapes. Do you really not get too squishy if you build a BT/BC first?

[Duilliath]

The fact that you even assume I am, is insulting.

[...]

I dislike GA. I absolutely understand it's power. I personally think it's a waste of resources. But I have to be wrong, because of the majority ruling. Which means I'll need to learn to play with it at all times. Which means I'll have to build it as early as 20 minutes, to learn to play with it.

And here you go again. First you say it's situational and I'm insulting you for thinking you follow a set build path, then you say 'at all times'. It's not me thinking you're stupid. It's you using inaccurate language to make yourself look silly. You can then rage about how others interpret your posts, but if your wording is this awkward, that's the message you are getting across. Clearly there's some improvement to be had in the way you communicate.

[Rampant Rabbit]

I would do something alike on Jayce, because he has the escapes. Do you really not get too squishy if you build a BT/BC first?

I'd always rush BC first myself on almost any bruiser champ. Since BC gives you HP as well, it'll be the perfect item to start off with. After that you can build your armor & mr by getting a GA. Not sure if I would get it so early myself on Vi, but it seems like a good pick since you'll be able to dive turrets like a mad man with your ulti.

[Vespian]

And here you go again. First you say it's situational and I'm insulting you for thinking you follow a set build path, then you say 'at all times'. It's not me thinking you're stupid. It's you using inaccurate language to make yourself look silly. You can then rage about how others interpret your posts, but if your wording is this awkward, that's the message you are getting across. Clearly there's some improvement to be had in the way you communicate.

Ok, rephrase (I'm not mad or angry or feel insulted at all. I just classify);
- Team fights start as early as minute 20
- Right now, I don't even know how long the timer is on the delay, I just saw that it had one, once.
- I don't have a good feeling of how much 30% is.
- I don't really have any experience trying to come back from the dead.

So, the way I see it, is I need to learn to play with the item. (Which is what I said, or tried saying). It's not about when to pick it, normally, but about picking it up and forcing some deaths to get the hang of the item. I'm a very clean player normally. I usually play Supports, ending my matches with scores such as 1/1/24 or 4/0/18. Dying is not my thing. If I die more than three times, I feel like I had a bad match.

How shall I put it. It's basically the same as having an item with an active. I buy the item, but I still often forget to use the active (mostly due to the lack of smart casting on items...sigh). I need some practice.

In other words, yes I do realize that GA is situational. But I can't wait for situational to happen.

[Rampant Rabbit]

It's not about when to pick it, normally, but about picking it up and forcing some deaths to get the hang of the item.

This is a scenario of being fed and abusing this fact early/mid game:
This item is here to induce a feeling of being overpowered by someone that, even though you get them to 0%, they will come back at 30% and kill you if you aren't dead already and walk away.

You should never 'force' a death to use it. You should play your best like you always should, and if it does happen that you proc GA, you will find out how effectively it can turn around fights. You can even bait an entire team with it, separate them, and pick some of them off.

In other words, yes I do realize that GA is situational. But I can't wait for situational to happen

Nobody can. That's why you buy it. To prevent the moments where you would usually just lie dead with a 60-90 sec res timer.

[Duilliath]

Ok, rephrase (I'm not mad or angry or feel insulted at all. I just classify);
- Team fights start as early as minute 20
- Right now, I don't even know how long the timer is on the delay, I just saw that it had one, once.
- I don't have a good feeling of how much 30% is.
- I don't really have any experience trying to come back from the dead.

So, the way I see it, is I need to learn to play with the item. (Which is what I said, or tried saying). It's not about when to pick it, normally, but about picking it up and forcing some deaths to get the hang of the item. I'm a very clean player normally. I usually play Supports, ending my matches with scores such as 1/1/24 or 4/0/18. Dying is not my thing. If I die more than three times, I feel like I had a bad match.

How shall I put it. It's basically the same as having an item with an active. I buy the item, but I still often forget to use the active (mostly due to the lack of smart casting on items...sigh). I need some practice.

In other words, yes I do realize that GA is situational. But I can't wait for situational to happen.

I tend to play AD carry. I can be up 20 kills and 0 deaths, but if I die that late into the game, you better believe the enemy team will be -at best- forcing a Baron fight. That one death could change the entire game.

In a way, it's not the first death that matters so much. It's the last one.

//edit: Though, if you generally play Support, I could see why you're not that sold on Guardian Angel.

[Kurdiern]

I'm talking about the fact that you looked at my match history and used it as a guiding hand to be offensive. I don't care what you think about me personally. It's about the principal. It's not true and you use it to make my opinion worth less. I did just get 30. So what? I'm not a 60 year old with bad reflexes, I don't use lag as an excuse or call it skill when I win.

Ah but I remember now, from that other thread. You made such a big fuss about my opinion not counting /because; not 30/. You and your friends even claimed these forums didn't have the regular mmo-champion moderating. Yeah, that was classic when a mod popped in.

P.S. I just did another bot game, to see how an early GA would affect my game. Results weren't so bad. So I might pick it up first in a real match and then proceed to Warmogs. Phage remains my first. Or maybe I'll just Phage -> GA -> Giant's Belt and then get some offensive items.

Jesus christ, you're the most sensitive flower in the garden aren't you?

I'm not being offensive. If you really think I'm being a dick by suggesting that you are a recently hit 30 with only 300ish game and can actually learn from people with over 1.5k games and a ton more experience and probably higher ELO and experience then sure, by all means, I guess I'm a massive dick for trying to give you advice you seem to so assuredly don't need. I mean hell, you had a 50:50 win loss while leveling up. Who the hell are you to listen to anyone?

You seem to think every game goes by a strict and easily predictable flow. "Team fights start now, I get this item here, and by this point etc etc etc..." It doesn't. Once again, I'll just reiterate the point I tried to make in the first place though which you seem to ignore while you make me out to be Hitler. A 2nd Warmog is a stupid idea and a GA is a great item that you need to learn to love and when to buy. It's not as incredibly situational as you make it out to be.

Which thread? The only one I remember a mod popping in was when you completely overreacted to a post I made directed at Stylus, not you.

P.S. It's a bot game. Do we really need to talk about the bot games, honestly? I thought you were lvl 30 and 100% right in everything you say.

[Vespian]

I tend to play AD carry. I can be up 20 kills and 0 deaths, but if I die that late into the game, you better believe the enemy team will be -at best- forcing a Baron fight. That one death could change the entire game.

In a way, it's not the first death that matters so much. It's the last one.

//edit: Though, if you generally play Support, I could see why you're not that sold on Guardian Angel.

I think we're still having a little bit of miscommunication. What I'm saying is, I need to learn to play with the item. So instead of waiting for a game where I definitely need it, I'll pick it up and die a few times with it, regardless of how the balance is at that time. Get the hang of how to play it with Vi. Not how to play Vi with it.

I understand the difference between early and late deaths and the importance of a res, late game.

P.S. It's a bot game. Do we really need to talk about the bot games, honestly? I thought you were lvl 30 and 100% right in everything you say.

No, I was taunting. I'm always right, until I'm convinced I am wrong. How would any human being function, if not for that fundamental rule?

And no, I do not believe in one fixed flow in a game. But writers of guides also basically combine their knowledge in a few paths and say; the rest is for you to figure out. This is the same. I'm not going to go into all alternatives. [By which I do not mean that I have that knowledge].

Good fierce discussions, those are what teach you the most. People get the most fierce. They want to confront me with how aggressive I am, but in turn do the exact same. I love it. And the end result is that my knowledge has been increased by an ever growing crowd of people that want to engage me.

And losing matches. If I dare watch the replays :P

[Rampant Rabbit]

No, I was taunting. I'm always right, until I'm convinced I am wrong. How would any human being function, if not for that fundamental rule?

That's not how it works.

Before you can be right you will have to prove that you indeed are. You gave your reasoning, and have been informed by others (with more experience) that things usually don't work that way.

After this you can either decide to agree that you may have been wrong to think about that certain point, or stick to your point and leave the conversation. Ignorance is bliss is derived from the latter option.

Good fierce discussions, those are what teach you the most. People get the most fierce. They want to confront me with how aggressive I am, but in turn do the exact same. I love it. And the end result is that my knowledge has been increased by an ever growing crowd of people that want to engage me.

There is a point in every discussion where the amount of aggressive comments from one person can become too much for others to tolerate. This is when people stop being nice to you and simply tell you how it is. Just don't be offensive to start with and things won't go this way.

[Vespian]

That's not how it works.

Before you can be right you will have to prove that you indeed are. You gave your reasoning, and have been informed by others (with more experience) that things usually don't work that way.

After this you can either decide to agree that you may have been wrong to think about that certain point, or stick to your point and leave the conversation. Ignorance is bliss is derived from the latter option.

There is a point in every discussion where the amount of aggressive comments from one person can become too much for others to tolerate. This is when people stop being nice to you and simply tell you how it is. Just don't be offensive to start with and things won't go this way.

Explaining human interaction to someone that purposely interacts this way. Yeah, could work

Strangely though, you mention all sorts of points that I actually fulfilled. I decided to agree that I may have been wrong, I also stopped discussing the point, I never went overboard on aggression. I write this way, that's all. My blood does it. The thrill of a good discussion.

Edit;
Just did a match with Vi. Solo top vs Skarner + Darius. I got pushed into my tower.
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/1149645

I started with Phage, (actually, two Ruby Crystals before Phage), The Brutalizer. I tried to pick up the golems whenever I could, to compensate my lack of CS. Sadly, my team sort of gave away early kills. So another loss. No biggy.

[Duilliath]

I have no idea how you'd gain anything of value regarding GA from a bot game. The only time I die in there is when I'm being a complete and utter moron and manage to get myself caught by 4 of them in chain CC under their turret.

Additionally, a bot game tends to be done well before you even reach a considerable about of gold. Often times I'm lucky if I get beyond a Bloodthirster or so.

If that is what you base your decisions on... *shrug* Oh well, I'm done here.