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  1. #21
    Epic! Skizzit's Avatar
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    While I agree with your points about where the SWTOR free to play went wrong, I would like to point out that your free sample analogy does not really work. What you are describing, in video game terms is a demo. F2p is not a demo and should not be treated as such.

    Other then that, I totally agree. The constant beating over your head with "subscribe to unlock this core gameplay mechanic" stuff at every turn is very frustrating. I have a feeling that while they will certainly see a boost in revenue for the first month or three, it will have a very large drop off. It is great that they are listening to feedback and trying to make adjustments to the restrictions, most players will not stick around long enough for that to have an impact on them. It is too bad really because the game is pretty good, not great or anything, but pretty good. I kind of feel like Bioware should have just made KOTOR 3 with 8 fully fleshed out single player storylines and sold it without all the MMO crap tacked on.

  2. #22
    I didn't bother reading the post at all.

    TL;DR

    The TL;DR was too long, so I didn't bother reading the post at all.

    I know, I know, nothing was added to the conversation, just some humor. Infract away.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Meanwhile, people are buying unlocks off the GTN and getting "handouts".
    That's not an excuse, they are not easy to get and many are way too expensive. You find it easy maybe because you have been constantly playing since day 1, have level 50 characters (lots of them by your signature) and likley have a subscription model right now still. Therefore nothing is limited for you already and you have a huge advantage.

    Unlocking things through painstaking saving with an already limited account is not the same as any other F2P MMO giving many of these options from the start.

    Swtor has to be the worst/most limited F2P model out there, end of story.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    This is objectively and factually incorrect. It's actually the preferred monetization method for MMO's of all shapes and sizes nowadays. The improved profitability of a F2P/freemium model for a game with a moderate to medium-small player size has been proven time and time again, and it's why you continue to see MMO after MMO make the transition from sub only to a hybrid freemium model (a la SWTOR or DCUO) or a F2P model (a la Aion).

    Costs to maintain MMO's have dramatically dropped over the years, and cash shops have proven to be highly profitable, so subscriptions aren't a "requirement" to cover operating costs anymore.

    Here's some background for you.

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/why...should-be-f2p/
    http://www.newzoo.com/trend-reports/mmo-trend-report/
    http://www.superdataresearch.com/monthly-mmo-metrics/
    I may be wrong but those numbers include games like farmvile and league of legends, they may be technically MMO's but the cost of maintaining them and the way you play them can't be compared to games like WoW and SWTOR.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Okay. This just isn't true.

    Lotro went f2p and has since done several expansion and is thriving,
    same with AoC, Dcuo too, and so many others.

    Just because they aren't on your radar doesn't mean they are no longer around. That's just silly.
    I've saw the article about one of those games (either Lotro or AoC) but honestly it was a while ago, how are those games now?

    personally I don't believe games like SWTOR or WoW can maintain high level of profitability and activity when going for f2p models. The biggest problem I see is that the MMO restricts end game content which is the only thing you can do at cap level.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    I've saw the article about one of those games (either Lotro or AoC) but honestly it was a while ago, how are those games now?
    I just started playing lotro and its movement / combat has got that smooth style that you see in wow. Really like the story telling. Its like a watered down version of swtor. So if you like story but don't like constant cut scenes lotro is the game for you. They have a ton of ways to gain in game currency so you can either grind or pay for things.

    I logged on to AoC last week and remembered that I don't like channeling melee attacks all the time. But other than that it ran smoother than launch, had a crazy active population, and is still one of the most beautiful mmos I've ever played.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    I've saw the article about one of those games (either Lotro or AoC) but honestly it was a while ago, how are those games now?

    personally I don't believe games like SWTOR or WoW can maintain high level of profitability and activity when going for f2p models. The biggest problem I see is that the MMO restricts end game content which is the only thing you can do at cap level.
    LoTRO just came out with the Riders of Rohan expansion that introduced a completely new gameplay mechanic with mounted combat. Also, the MMO restricts whatever they choose to restrict based on their core audience. For example, LoTRO doesn't introduce many raids as opposed to quests and story, but EQ2's most recent expansion just brought 3 new raids along with 9 solo dungeons and 7 heroic dungeons.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by notorious98 View Post
    LoTRO just came out with the Riders of Rohan expansion that introduced a completely new gameplay mechanic with mounted combat.
    Which is why I have taken an interest in lotro recently. This new mechanic seems pretty god damn awesome.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Which is why I have taken an interest in lotro recently. This new mechanic seems pretty god damn awesome.
    Like I said in a previous thread. Mounted combat shows that, despite going F2P, companies can make enough money off of it to introduce completely new game mechanics. This should be the sliver of hope that you hold on to for TOR introducing new space gameplay mechanics. It CAN be done with a F2P game budget.

  9. #29
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Which is why I have taken an interest in lotro recently. This new mechanic seems pretty god damn awesome.
    It's been pretty buggy and awkward but is progressing into being something quite awesome. Proof that F2P games don't just sit around and whittle away collecting money from no effort. Sure their team is small, but they are doing pretty ambitious things. Always have a place in my rotation for that game.

  10. #30
    Back to the F2P of SWTOR. The current system works to withdraw benefits from you for not being a regular subscriber. You're penalized for not paying to play the game by having things taken away entirely, reduced access or limited benefit. "But Kasperio!" you might say "What about subscribers, then? Are you suggesting F2P players gets the same things subscribers do?!" - No, no! Not at ALL! But that takes us back to the reward system. I believe the actions taken should be to add benefits (Note: Not just novelty but innovative gamplay diffrences) to subscribers while making current content F2P. I know someone might think "But that means everything I have now, others paying nothing would get aswell?" Well, yes and no.

    This is what I don't get. Let's say for example, you used to play TOR when it launched. You bought the box, played for four months, paying 3 monthly subscriptions. Then you stopped playing, so you stopped paying. So essentially your status is "No money out of pocket/No access to game." Which is a fair trade-off and I don't think back when it was a subscription only model anyone expected to be able to play this game without paying a monthly subscription.

    TOR goes F2P. The same guy who used to play, now takes another look at TOR, and decides he wants to try F2P.

    He rejoins the game, but he does not have the same access to his account that he did when he paid a monthly subscription. However, he has far more access now, than he had before the F2P. Then he complains that he feels more restricted, even though before F2P he had absolutely NO access at all, which is the ultimate restriction, and when he did have access, he was paying the monthly subscription fee.

    Basically, looking at them as restrictions is the the wrong way to look at it, instead look it TOR F2P as a bonus now, since you have a ton of access to it, without having to pay a monthly fee. If you want the whole thing, pay the monthly fee, but if you don't want to pay a monthly fee, don't complain about being restricted, when in fact, you're getting more for nothing than you were before F2P was launched.

  11. #31
    Epic! Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morros View Post
    This is what I don't get. Let's say for example, you used to play TOR when it launched. You bought the box, played for four months, paying 3 monthly subscriptions. Then you stopped playing, so you stopped paying. So essentially your status is "No money out of pocket/No access to game." Which is a fair trade-off and I don't think back when it was a subscription only model anyone expected to be able to play this game without paying a monthly subscription.

    TOR goes F2P. The same guy who used to play, now takes another look at TOR, and decides he wants to try F2P.

    He rejoins the game, but he does not have the same access to his account that he did when he paid a monthly subscription. However, he has far more access now, than he had before the F2P. Then he complains that he feels more restricted, even though before F2P he had absolutely NO access at all, which is the ultimate restriction, and when he did have access, he was paying the monthly subscription fee.

    Basically, looking at them as restrictions is the the wrong way to look at it, instead look it TOR F2P as a bonus now, since you have a ton of access to it, without having to pay a monthly fee. If you want the whole thing, pay the monthly fee, but if you don't want to pay a monthly fee, don't complain about being restricted, when in fact, you're getting more for nothing than you were before F2P was launched.
    That's a silly argument. Bioware made the game free to play because the game was a failure. Other MMO games have been in a similar situation and switched to a free to play model quite successfully like LotRO, Star Trek Online, and DC Universe Online and you know the biggest difference between those games and SWTOR's F2P model? They don't restrict large portions of the game to f2p players and constantly tell the player in game that they need to pay money to access the full game.

    Everything in those games are pay for extras. Things like new races, extra quest packs, ships and player models cosmetic changes, small temporary exp or money gain tokens, and things like pets and fun items. The funniest thing about these kinds of micro transactions is many people end up paying more per month on extras at $1-5 a shot then they would have under a flat monthly charge. Bioware should have spent way more time working on extras for the cartel market then on restrictions for f2p players.

    You want the player to feel like they are getting a complete game for free, but could get ever more for a little extra money and not like they are being forced to pay money to unlock the complete "free to play" game.

  12. #32
    Banned sibut's Avatar
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    You don't like the F2P model, I don't like the F2P model, nobody likes the F2P model. I'm not sure why this needed a new thread to rehash what people have been saying in many many threads since it came in.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sibut View Post
    You don't like the F2P model, I don't like the F2P model, nobody likes the F2P model. I'm not sure why this needed a new thread to rehash what people have been saying in many many threads since it came in.
    Um.

    What?

    I mean srsly. What?
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Um.

    What?

    I mean srsly. What?
    Agreed. I've said before that I feel this was a brilliant F2P model. Allowing cash shop items to be sold on the GTN, including equipment authorizations and weekly passes to WZs, Ops, and FPs? Brilliant.

  15. #35
    They should have left it with authorization packs and gtn buyables.... restricting color matching etc. was silly and not necessary. While I don't think this is a reason to not try the game (as we didn't have stuff like this when the game launched and we still played it). I'm a subscriber and will be because I like the game and I like to have no restrictions. Which for example I don't understand why I have restrictions on some of the moods/ socials. Hopefully it's a bug because in the descriptions it says it's free for subscribers which.... obviously... it isn't so far.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Skizzit View Post
    That's a silly argument. Bioware made the game free to play because the game was a failure. Other MMO games have been in a similar situation and switched to a free to play model quite successfully like LotRO, Star Trek Online, and DC Universe Online and you know the biggest difference between those games and SWTOR's F2P model? They don't restrict large portions of the game to f2p players and constantly tell the player in game that they need to pay money to access the full game.

    Everything in those games are pay for extras. Things like new races, extra quest packs, ships and player models cosmetic changes, small temporary exp or money gain tokens, and things like pets and fun items. The funniest thing about these kinds of micro transactions is many people end up paying more per month on extras at $1-5 a shot then they would have under a flat monthly charge. Bioware should have spent way more time working on extras for the cartel market then on restrictions for f2p players.

    You want the player to feel like they are getting a complete game for free, but could get ever more for a little extra money and not like they are being forced to pay money to unlock the complete "free to play" game.
    The story content for 8 different classes might as well be "a whole game for free". I haven't played KOTOR or KOTOR 2 but is doing all 8 class stories more content than those games? Less? Same? I understand at a certain point the only thing not new is the actual class story missions, once you do each side (Republic or Imperial) once the sidequests are no longer new.

    Either way, it's not a silly argument, you're getting something for nothing, that previously required you to pay $15 a month, there is no other way to get around that fact. The game itself is not really a failure, and calling it that shows your inexperience with things. Their goal to compete with WoW failed, but everyone knew that was going to happen before the game came out. They've made a ton of mistakes, but the game in many ways is still better than a lot out there. People who don't judge their game by how many other people play, already know this.

  17. #37
    I played both but don't really remember the amount of playtime. KOTOR seemed more "epic" as you have a huge impact on history and you can see the impact you inflict where as in SWTOR you kinda have to imagine it instead of visually seeing it.

  18. #38
    Epic! Skizzit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morros View Post
    The story content for 8 different classes might as well be "a whole game for free". I haven't played KOTOR or KOTOR 2 but is doing all 8 class stories more content than those games? Less? Same? I understand at a certain point the only thing not new is the actual class story missions, once you do each side (Republic or Imperial) once the sidequests are no longer new.

    Either way, it's not a silly argument, you're getting something for nothing, that previously required you to pay $15 a month, there is no other way to get around that fact. The game itself is not really a failure, and calling it that shows your inexperience with things. Their goal to compete with WoW failed, but everyone knew that was going to happen before the game came out. They've made a ton of mistakes, but the game in many ways is still better than a lot out there. People who don't judge their game by how many other people play, already know this.
    What I meant by silly argument is the "you are getting more then before so shutup or pay" is a stupid way to go about it. And yes, the game is a failure. They spent an estimated $150-$200 million on the games initial development and that is not taking into account further costs of running the game and creating new content. Even with the 1 million initial accounts, considering the large drop off of users over the first few months, they just may have broken even but I doubt that. Not making any money on a huge produced that was 6 years in development = failure.

    Again, I am talking from a pure business standpoint, not a quality or gameplay one (although it amazes me how many bugs there still are in a one year old MMO). The game is fun, it is just very aggravating and off putting to constantly be told you are pretty much a second class citizen while playing f2p or preferred. Every time you turn in a quest, seeing the xp reward reduced unless you pay and even some quest rewards locked unless you pay. Want more inventory space? Pay up! Want to actually use these legacy rewards you have unlocked? Pay up! Wanna use that rare piece of armor you just found? Pay up! Even if you want to display titles you have earned or hide your freaking helm graphic (really, that's subscriber only?) Pay up!

    It really sends the message to any new players that are checking out the game via f2p that they are not actually playing the full game. They should have either went with an extended trial, more then the lvl 15 one that had, or gone full out with the f2p as other games have by really beefing up the extras on the cash shop. They tried to straddle the like between f2p and subscription and it is not working.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Um.

    What?

    I mean srsly. What?
    Quote Originally Posted by notorious98 View Post
    Agreed. I've said before that I feel this was a brilliant F2P model. Allowing cash shop items to be sold on the GTN, including equipment authorizations and weekly passes to WZs, Ops, and FPs? Brilliant.
    It makes me physically sick that some people actually support this F2P model.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post
    It makes me physically sick that some people actually support this F2P model.
    Pretty sad that it makes you sick. Especially considering I barely even bother loading TOR. I think I've spent a total of 10 minutes in game since late July. You don't like it, that's fine. Despite that, it doesn't change the fact that it takes a shit load less time to get a convenience unlock as a non-subscriber in TOR than it does in any other F2P game I've played. Sometimes I wonder if many of you that are railing against this F2P system have ever actually played or seen a F2P game in action before. Most of them are restrictive and none of them allow you to lift those restrictions through anything besides massive grinds or money.

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