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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    She allowed Alliance troops to invade Horde lands when there was still a chance at peace and Garrosh was damn honorable and willing to listen to reason.
    Garrosh preffered war over peace. And a peaceful solution Pre-Cata was more unlikely to happen that likely to happen.

    Garrosh at that point wanted Ashenvele and probably Azhara for the Horde. I dont know about you, but I very very very very highly doubt the Night Elves will ever willingly give that up, on the battlefield or on diplomatic talks.

    I mean at best what, the Horde would get a few miles on the border? That hardly satisfies the future he wants for the Horde.
    Plus, Garrosh sees the Alliance as a great enemy of the Horde, and enemies exist to e defeated, not coddled with.
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-12-08 at 11:44 PM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    She allowed Alliance troops to invade Horde lands when there was still a chance at peace and Garrosh was damn honorable and willing to listen to reason.
    My god.. that is truly delusional if you even think that seriously. Show me one example since he became warchief of Garrosh listening to reason or aiming for peace, go on, try.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The ironic thing here, is that Varian is the one who has mellowed out, he's become far more rational then he once was, and mostly I put that down to Anduin teaching a lesson to his father.

    Jaina has been warped into something else, the compassionate and steadfast Jaina we use to know has now become an erratic one, one who goes from talking about peace one minute, then wanting to go to war the next, back to hoping for peace, and turning on the war switch again. She's a mess.
    What's the Warcraft equivalent of a therapist? Priest maybe? Should she and Velen have a talk?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kage View Post
    What's the Warcraft equivalent of a therapist? Priest maybe? Should she and Velen have a talk?
    Given her current personality and attitude shifts, it'll take more money then Gallywix has to fix her.

    Jaina "Oh, but I really do wish for peace between both sides"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "THRALL GOT MARRIED TO THAT WHORE, RRAWR! DEATH TO ALL ORCS!"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "Anduin convinced me its better to aim for peace"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "GARROSH BOMBED MY CASTLE, DEATH TO ALL THE HORDE!"
    Velen *sips tea* "I see"
    Jaina "I wish to use dalaran as a way to bring peace"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "THEY USED DALARAN TO STEAL FROM DARNASSUS, THEY WILL ALL DIE!"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "I think it stems back to my daddy issues"
    Velen "I see... well your hour is up"

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    This right here, everything you just talked about, is a prime example of terrible and inconsistent writing on Blizzard's part. Jaina might have been portrayed as "peace loving" forever but that actually ISN'T the case since she actively allowed Alliance troops to come in through Theramore and invade Horde lands without Horde instigation.

    That attitude is underhanded warmongering and was the case since BEFORE Tides of War. So her "peaceful persona" in Tides of War was either a facade (one can only wish) or Blizzard just sucks ass at having their characters perform actions fitting their roles.
    There's a difference between "peace loving" and "pacifism". At no point has Jaina ever been a pacifist. She's always fought when she needed to inspite prefering to avoid violence as long as possible. As for the troops she's a leader to not keep a military and completely take that option off the table is irresponsible to her peoples safety.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 12:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Sure but if you do that you can´t say that you just want peace and harmony with the Horde. Once you agree to let the troops use your city as a base to launch an attack on the Horde you are part of that war and agree with it. And why couldn´t she say no ? At that time it was still an alliance, Varian was not the supreme emperor of everyone and he couldn´t order the other Alliance members around. Now as "High King" maybe but at that time Theramore was quite independent.

    I don´t want to play the blame game, her attack may be justified and all, its just you can´t call yourself a person of peace if you start a war.
    Why did they need to say yes to supporting those troops? Theramore was awesome but it was a relatively small kingdom in the middle of a swamp. They didn't have the military or resources to make it on there own on a hostile continent. They needed the Alliance and the Alliance needed them (as a military base).

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kage View Post
    [/COLOR]Why did they need to say yes to supporting those troops?
    Because if the Alliance is at war, so is Theramore?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #47
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    The Jaina thing has kind of pissed me off overall. Its like cracking an egg into a bowel and seeing a shard of eggshell in it, and having to work to get it out without breaking the yolk.

    She says one moment she wants peace, but lets alliance travel though theramore to invade the barrens, and this segment is meant to be ignored by the horde.
    She talks long windedly about peace and how dalaran can be a shining becon of light for peace, and five minutes later goes full on alliance general and condemns half of dalaran, those who fought to protect the city from the blue dragonflight and more.

    I hate Garrosh, I've said for a while now he's an inconsistant mess who changes his personality every five minutes, but now suddenly Jaina is as bad if not worse then he is. He might now be a warmongering savage but at least at the moment he looks more consistent at this time now then Jaina appears.

  8. #48
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    traumatic events have traumatic results?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    An Alliance city.

    Aiding any side in a conflict is not a very neutral thing to do.
    Jaina was never neutral!
    She has always been part of the Alliance.
    She grew up in Kul Tiras which is Alliance. (and missing in game )
    She apprenticed in Dalaran which was Alliance till years after she left (and is again).
    She ran Theramore an Allinace city.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kage View Post
    Jaina was never neutral!
    She has always been part of the Alliance.
    I was talkin about her time in power at Dalaran.
    She starts off saying that Dalaran will remain above the war, but still lends her powers to the Alliance

    Not that Im bashing her for it. She does have more ties to the Alliance than Horde.
    But saying the Sunreavers are being punished for breaking neutrality seems silly when Jaina already has done so.
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-12-09 at 12:27 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  11. #51
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Given her current personality and attitude shifts, it'll take more money then Gallywix has to fix her.

    Jaina "Oh, but I really do wish for peace between both sides"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "THRALL GOT MARRIED TO THAT WHORE, RRAWR! DEATH TO ALL ORCS!"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "Anduin convinced me its better to aim for peace"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "GARROSH BOMBED MY CASTLE, DEATH TO ALL THE HORDE!"
    Velen *sips tea* "I see"
    Jaina "I wish to use dalaran as a way to bring peace"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "THEY USED DALARAN TO STEAL FROM DARNASSUS, THEY WILL ALL DIE!"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "I think it stems back to my daddy issues"
    Velen "I see... well your hour is up"
    Velen just became that much more awesome.
    You don't create "justice" by destroying. That includes buildings, cars, or the careers of the people you want "justice" for.


  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Given her current personality and attitude shifts, it'll take more money then Gallywix has to fix her.

    Jaina "Oh, but I really do wish for peace between both sides"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "THRALL GOT MARRIED TO THAT WHORE, RRAWR! DEATH TO ALL ORCS!"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "Anduin convinced me its better to aim for peace"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "GARROSH BOMBED MY CASTLE, DEATH TO ALL THE HORDE!"
    Velen *sips tea* "I see"
    Jaina "I wish to use dalaran as a way to bring peace"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "THEY USED DALARAN TO STEAL FROM DARNASSUS, THEY WILL ALL DIE!"
    Velen "I see"
    Jaina "I think it stems back to my daddy issues"
    Velen "I see... well your hour is up"
    you forgot the part where velen says "give me 200g" lol
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    you forgot the part where velen says "give me 200g" lol
    she's on a gold credit system.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    My god.. that is truly delusional if you even think that seriously. Show me one example since he became warchief of Garrosh listening to reason or aiming for peace, go on, try.
    Well he´s not a Hippie but in the Cata quests he seemed pretty honorable. Besides the Horde is fighting the Nightelves in Ashenvale since Vanilla, i don´t see any reason why an attack on the Barrens had to be made so urgently. It´s not as if anything special happened there.

    Quote Originally Posted by kage View Post
    Why did they need to say yes to supporting those troops? Theramore was awesome but it was a relatively small kingdom in the middle of a swamp. They didn't have the military or resources to make it on there own on a hostile continent. They needed the Alliance and the Alliance needed them (as a military base).
    Well acutally thanks to Jainas peace politics Theramore did pretty well on its own on a hostile continent. And there wasn´t any evidence that Garrosh was about to break that peace until she agreed to use Theramore as a staging point for the Alliance attach on the Barrens.
    Again, i don´t say she was wrong in agreeing on that attack but at that point she stopped being peaceful and became a part of the war.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Well he´s not a Hippie but in the Cata quests he seemed pretty honorable. Besides the Horde is fighting the Nightelves in Ashenvale since Vanilla, i don´t see any reason why an attack on the Barrens had to be made so urgently. It´s not as if anything special happened there.
    They were fighting a turf war with them. Garrosh made it into a full blown freaking war.

    Tell me this. If orgrimmar was having all wooden structures replaced with metal ones and all orc buildings around kalimdor down the same, why would Garrosh need more lumber from ashenvale then they horde already was getting? He didn't, he just wanted to carry on his daddies conflict with the night elves.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    I was talkin about her time in power at Dalaran.
    She starts off saying that Dalaran will remain above the war, but still lends her powers to the Alliance

    Not that Im bashing her for it. She does have more ties to the Alliance than Horde.
    But saying the Sunreavers are being punished for breaking neutrality seems silly when Jaina already has done so.
    Point made.

  17. #57
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    I did read the novel.

    Jaina suffered a great loss at the destruction of Theramore, and for a time, she wanted to destroy Garrosh at the expense of anything that got in her way, including her long-time friend, Thrall, and Kalecgos. But she was brought to her senses, and then realized if she had tried to destroy Orgrimmar with the Focusing Iris, she would've annihilated the entire Alliance fleet that was in those waters.

    She is no longer bitter and angry, but she has a lot of emotional scarring, and she still wants to see Garrosh dethroned.

    She is now the leader of the Kirin Tor, a prophecy foreseen by Krasus.

    She is not a good-turned-bad character. She is a good character who went through a traumatic experience that left her grief-stricken.

    Image created by Brienna

  18. #58
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    Yeah, I've made peace with the fact that the rational-minded, noble, heroic Jaina of Warcraft 3 and onward is gone for good, replaced by another simplistic color-by-numbers warmonger. It's an absolute, damned shame because she used to be my favorite character, the one voice of reason in the Alliance, but just like with Tyrande grabbing the idiot ball in 5.1, she ended up thrown into the crazy pile to make way for Glorious Leader King Varian Wrynn, Best Thing Since Sliced Bread! (despite the fact that I find him about as engaging as mildly-burned toast)

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    My god.. that is truly delusional if you even think that seriously. Show me one example since he became warchief of Garrosh listening to reason or aiming for peace, go on, try.
    He attacked Ashenvale all out.
    He allied with the trolls in Darkshore, and supplied weapons so they could attack the highly weakened night elves in that area.
    He attacked Azshara.
    He attacked Stonetalon.
    CLEARLY he was open for peace!... /sarcasm off

    "Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change."

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Yeah, I've made peace with the fact that the rational-minded, noble, heroic Jaina of Warcraft 3 and onward is gone for good, replaced by another simplistic color-by-numbers warmonger. It's an absolute, damned shame because she used to be my favorite character, the one voice of reason in the Alliance, but just like with Tyrande grabbing the idiot ball in 5.1, she ended up thrown into the crazy pile to make way for Glorious Leader King Varian Wrynn, Best Thing Since Sliced Bread! (despite the fact that I find him about as engaging as mildly-burned toast)
    Let me ask you dude, how much of this complete re-characterization do you blame on peoples whining about Jaina apparently doing nothing, and blizzard caving into such people, creating a complete mess of a character. I miss Jaina as she use to be to.

    You know, so much of the lore lately has seen so many once great characters now shit on, and the sad fact is what they turned them into is a pale reflection of what they use to be.

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